Who has seen Fahrenheit 911? - DPChallenge Forums

07/30/2004 12:23:32 PM · #30

Originally posted by biohazard:

Originally posted by MadMordegon:

Originally posted by Anachronite:
why go see it? just a waste of time since most journalists admit there are no facts to back up his wild claims... thats why they weren't published in the newspaper... the film is nothing more that speculative propaganda... Besides, michael moore is a socialist...

Wrong.

Indeed it is. Very wrong.

Funny. The World Socialist Web Site has this to say about Michael Moore:

"Where does Moore go from here? In our view, his further evolution as an artist will largely depend on his intellectual and political development. In the first place, this will mean an open admission of his underlying socialist convictions" ( emphasis mine )

One would think that if the Socialists themselves believe that he's a Socialist, then he probably is one, whether he admits it or not.

Ron

Gordon

RIM BlackBerry Curve

Canon EF 85mm f/1.8 USM

07/30/2004 12:55:22 PM · #31

Originally posted by RonB:

One would think that if the Socialists themselves believe that he's a Socialist, then he probably is one, whether he admits it or not.

Why ? If the communist party posted on a web site that you were a communist, would it matter if you thought you were one or not ? Would it mean you probably are one, even if you deny it ?

McCarthyism here we come ;)

RonB

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

07/30/2004 02:32:07 PM · #32

Originally posted by Gordon:

Originally posted by RonB:

One would think that if the Socialists themselves believe that he's a Socialist, then he probably is one, whether he admits it or not.

Why ? If the communist party posted on a web site that you were a communist, would it matter if you thought you were one or not ? Would it mean you probably are one, even if you deny it ?

McCarthyism here we come ;)

TouchÃ©. Good point. A single such reference, taken alone, should be insufficient to justify such an inference, both for Mr. Moore and for myself. I erred in offering only that single citation as evidence. Time, however prevents me from sifting through the tens of thousands of hits I get in Google when I do a search on "Michael Moore" AND Socialist.

FWIW, Your reference to McCarthyism is out of place. McCarthyism is the practice of accusing one of disloyalty or subversion without sufficient evidence. I made no such accusation. Mr. Moore could very well be an ardent socialist without being either subversive or disloyal to our Constitution, and I did not imply in any way that he was.

Ron

Gordon

RIM BlackBerry Curve

Canon EF 85mm f/1.8 USM

07/30/2004 02:40:00 PM · #33

Originally posted by RonB:

FWIW, Your reference to McCarthyism is out of place. McCarthyism is the practice of accusing one of disloyalty or subversion without sufficient evidence. I made no such accusation.
Ron

You are of course correct, I was more drawing a parallel with the typical means of that accusation, which would be an accusation of being a Communist, or Socialist in this case. I had hoped the smiley at the end would have softened the jibe - my apologies.

unscrupulously accusing people of disloyalty (as by saying they were Communists)

Though actually, a quick googling shows that with 155,000 hits, Communist appears to be a more popular accusation for Moore, than Socialist (135,000 hits) Following that logic though, as Moore AND republican gets about 473,000 hits, perhaps that shows his true leanings more.

And a wild card, trying to avoid a Godwin ruling, shows that Moore AND Nazi scores 178,000 hits... (these change marginally if you search for Michael Moore and not just Moore - not sure if 007 gets accused of being a socialist much)

Interestingly, the 'communist' accusations mainly come from good Republican sites like the Druge Report.

There are 50,000 hits on google for George Bush AND antichrist, so I don't know how much faith I'd put in google numbers for drawing conclusions either.

Message edited by author 2004-07-30 14:46:47.

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

07/30/2004 02:48:39 PM · #34

Originally posted by RonB:

... [a person] could very well be an ardent socialist without being either subversive or disloyal to our Constitution, and I did not imply in any way that he was.

Ron

You don't have to ... FOX News* will happily make the implication for you, and to a wider audience ...

*cheap shot -- I think the media all in about equally on this one

frisca

Nikon D70

Nikon AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.8D

07/30/2004 05:11:25 PM · #35

Originally posted by Anachronite:

A sidebar comment to the above statement: If you truly believe that the media will report only facts and does only that and nothing else... the battle for your autonomous mind has already been lost.

Further sidebar: You spit out the words "socialist" like a slur. Canada and India are both social democracies -- both functioning countries, and in the case of Canada, with a population that is free and happy. To be a socialist is not evil.

07/30/2004 05:22:53 PM · #36

Originally posted by frisca:

Originally posted by Anachronite:
why go see it? just a waste of time since most journalists admit there are no facts to back up his wild claims... thats why they weren't published in the newspaper... the film is nothing more that speculative propaganda... Besides, michael moore is a socialist...

A sidebar comment to the above statement: If you truly believe that the media will report only facts and does only that and nothing else... the battle for your autonomous mind has already been lost.

Further sidebar: You spit out the words "socialist" like a slur. Canada and India are both social democracies -- both functioning countries, and in the case of Canada, with a population that is free and happy. To be a socialist is not evil.

Frisca, thank you for posting a concise and perfect response to Anachronite's comment. After I read his entry I was at a total loss for words. It's amazing how so many remain frozen in another era, as if the Cold War were still being fought. Again, thank you Frisca.

Message edited by author 2004-07-30 17:23:49.

kate12303

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6

07/30/2004 05:27:24 PM · #37

I saw Fahrenheit 9/11 twice because I think it takes at least that, if not more, to process everything shown in the film. Obviously this movie is total propaganda supporting Moore's opinion on the war in Iraq. All his movies are basically live action editorials, but at least he makes people think about the issues. If you believe everything that the media puts out there or the president says about the war, you are a fool, but if you go see Michael Moore's movie and believe everything he says, you're equally as foolish. Obviously both sides are selling their views. At least Moore is trying to show people a different side of things, so they we as an intelligent society can feel free to think about things for ourselves. Go do some research and find out why you think this war is really going on, then you can decide if you agree with it or not.

Just my opinion.
~Kate

EddyG

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM

07/30/2004 06:08:00 PM · #38

Just be sure that after you see the movie, you review Fifty Nine Deceits in Fahrenheit 9/11 so you can separate fact from fiction. Making real-life decisions (i.e., who to vote for) based on fiction is idiotic. Yes, I realize you actually have to read something instead of having it "spoon fed" to you while you eat popcorn, but it's important to see it for what it is.

Message edited by author 2004-07-30 18:09:57.

Panasonic Lumix G 14mm F2.5 ASPH

07/30/2004 06:25:59 PM · #39

And after you've read the incredibly contrived and hair-splitting website mentioned above, visit Fahrenheit 9/11 Notes + Sources -- where every issue raised in the film is documented.

Granted, the first half of F-9/11 contains some unflattering depictions of Bush in his own voice and person; however, the second half of the movie is an incredibly moving, pro-military, pro-working family, pro-shared sacrificed piece of film making. By all means, see it and make your own mind about what it says to you.

Originally posted by EddyG:

MadMordegon

07/30/2004 06:32:03 PM · #40

Originally posted by EddyG:

Just be sure that after you see the movie, you review Fifty Nine Deceits in Fahrenheit 9/11 so you can separate fact from fiction.

This is one of my favorites:

"Bush Presidency before September 11

Deceit 5

The movie lauds an anti-Bush riot that took place in Washington, D.C., on the day of Bushâ��s inauguration. He claims that protestors "pelted Bush's limo with eggs." Actually, it was just one egg, according to the BBC. According to Moore, "No President had ever witnessed such a thing on his inauguration day. " According to CNN, Richard Nixon faced comparable protests in 1969 and 1973."

So.. he was only pelted with 1 egg, not multiple eggs. That makes things much better.
Also, adding that Nixon was protested at his inauguration IMO only compounds the fact. Nixon was a crook, was made to quit from office and ended up with the nick name "slick Dick".

So, we are sure that it was only 1 egg, and that the only other president to be treated like Bush turned out to be a theif and lier.

Nice.

Message edited by author 2004-07-30 18:32:37.

Olyuzi

Panasonic Lumix DMC-GX7

07/30/2004 07:13:44 PM · #41

If I remember correctly, the weekend that Bush was inaugurated there was a couple (man and woman) in the stands that protested Bush's presidency by removing their clothes as the motorcade passed by and there were messages written accross their chests protesting Bush's so called victory. In addition, THIS ARTICLE reports that tens of thousands of people around the country took part in protest of Bush's inauguration.

07/30/2004 07:20:09 PM · #42

Originally posted by bdobe:

And after you've read the incredibly contrived and hair-splitting website mentioned above, visit Fahrenheit 9/11 Notes + Sources -- where every issue raised in the film is documented.

...and while reading Michael Moore's Fahrenheit 9/11 Notes + Sources pay careful attention to what the source actually says. I've read them all and almost every one doesn't actually support what Moore said or they support absolutely nothing. Some go as far to refute what Moore said. Just read the sources word for word and you'll see what I mean.

For instance:

"Was it that group of religious fundamentalists who visited my state when I was governor?"

Moore's sources state that a Taleban delegation visited Unocal in Texas. Where does it state they were invited by Bush? Where does it say he even knew they were there?

"On Sept. 10, 2001 , Bush joined his brother in Florida where he slept the night in "a bed made of fine French linens."

Moore's sources didn't actually state the President slept on anything. But even if he did, so what?

Read them all carefully and you'll see they're all total BS.

07/30/2004 07:28:50 PM · #43

Originally posted by thelsel:

Originally posted by bdobe:
And after you've read the incredibly contrived and hair-splitting website mentioned above, visit Fahrenheit 9/11 Notes + Sources -- where every issue raised in the film is documented.

...and while reading Michael Moore's Fahrenheit 9/11 Notes + Sources pay careful attention to what the source actually says. I've read them all and almost every one doesn't actually support what Moore said or they support absolutely nothing. Some go as far to refute what Moore said. Just read the sources word for word and you'll see what I mean.

For instance:

"Was it that group of religious fundamentalists who visited my state when I was governor?"

Moore's sources state that a Taleban delegation visited Unocal in Texas. Where does it state they were invited by Bush? Where does it say he even knew they were there?

"On Sept. 10, 2001 , Bush joined his brother in Florida where he slept the night in "a bed made of fine French linens."

Moore's sources didn't actually state the President slept on anything. But even if he did, so what?

Read them all carefully and you'll see they're all total BS.

Talk about missing the forest for the trees...

Message edited by author 2004-07-30 19:32:37.

MadMordegon

07/30/2004 07:34:31 PM · #44

Originally posted by thelsel:

Dude...

FAHRENHEIT 9/11: â��Was it that group of religious fundamentalists who visited my state when I was governor?â��

â��A senior delegation from the Taleban movement in Afghanistan is in the United States for talks with an international energy company that wants to construct a gas pipeline from Turkmenistan across Afghanistan to Pakistan. A spokesman for the company, Unocal, said the Taleban were expected to spend several days at the company's headquarters in Sugarland, Texas.â�� â��Taleban in Texas for talks on Gas Pipeline,â�� BBC News, December 4, 1997 (Sugarland is 22 miles outside Houston.)

Hmmâ�¦

FAHRENHEIT 9/11: On Sept. 10, 2001 , Bush joined his brother in Florida where he slept the night in â��a bed made of fine French linens.â��

Bush has not been bashful about visiting Florida, ground zero in the vote-recount battle that followed last year's election. On this trip, he was spending a good deal of time with his brother, Gov. Jeb Bush. " President to Push Congress on Education in Fourth Florida Visit,â�� Associated Press, September 10, 2001; See also, CNN Inside Politics, September 10, 2001.
Two individuals prepared the presidentâ��s room â��and made the bed with some of the family's fine French linens.â�� Tom Bayles, â��The Day Before Everything Changed, President Bush Touched Locals' Lives,â�� Sarasota Herald-Tribune, September 10, 2002.

If your calling someone else a liar, donâ��t do exactly that in the same breath.

pitsaman

Canon EOS-30D

Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 II

07/30/2004 08:18:30 PM · #45

Check this photo

07/30/2004 08:25:59 PM · #46

Originally posted by pitsaman:

Check this photo

Here's my favorite photo...

Sad.

Message edited by author 2004-07-30 20:26:19.

07/31/2004 12:49:04 AM · #47

Originally posted by MadMordegon:

Dude...

FAHRENHEIT 9/11: "Was it that group of religious fundamentalists who visited my state when I was governor?"

"A senior delegation from the Taleban movement in Afghanistan is in the United States for talks with an international energy company that wants to construct a gas pipeline from Turkmenistan across Afghanistan to Pakistan. A spokesman for the company, Unocal, said the Taleban were expected to spend several days at the company's headquarters in Sugarland, Texas." "Taleban in Texas for talks on Gas Pipeline," BBC News, December 4, 1997 (Sugarland is 22 miles outside Houston.)

Hmmâ�¦

FAHRENHEIT 9/11: On Sept. 10, 2001 , Bush joined his brother in Florida where he slept the night in "a bed made of fine French linens."

Bush has not been bashful about visiting Florida, ground zero in the vote-recount battle that followed last year's election. On this trip, he was spending a good deal of time with his brother, Gov. Jeb Bush. " President to Push Congress on Education in Fourth Florida Visit," Associated Press, September 10, 2001; See also, CNN Inside Politics, September 10, 2001.
Two individuals prepared the presidentâ��s room "and made the bed with some of the family's fine French linens." Tom Bayles, "The Day Before Everything Changed, President Bush Touched Locals' Lives," Sarasota Herald-Tribune, September 10, 2002.

If your calling someone else a liar, don't do exactly that in the same breath.

This is a typical Michael Moore tactic but it's nothing but utter bullshit! Moore basically proves that Bush was governor of Texas and the Taleban may have indeed visited his state while he was in office. But what did that prove? It in no way backs up what was implied by Moore's statement. It was worded in a way that implies Bush should have known and/or approved all people entering his state on private business with private companies. That statement is as pointless as "Was it that group of religious fundamentalists who visited my country when Clinton was President?"

The second statement is even more asinine. Not only is it completely pointless, it's not actually supported by the source. First off, who gives a shit if Bush slept on "French linens"? Did Bush ever publicly state he hates the French and/of French things? Not to mention the source never proves Bush actually slept on anything. For all we know, he walked in the "prepared" room and said get this frilly French crap off my bed! Also note the source is dated September 10, 2002. That far earlier then the President implied hatred towards the French would have logically happened.

Moore's whole database is full of generally true statement followed by a generally true source. However, he words things in ways that imply something totally different than what is factually true. Or he strings things together that actually happened years apart and in a NON-chronological order. The whole damn database is full of crap like this. If you can't see through the BS then just keep drinking the kool-aid.

Message edited by author 2004-07-31 01:03:20.

07/31/2004 01:06:16 AM · #48

Originally posted by pitsaman:

Check this photo

Yes, Photoshop is amazing isnâ��t it?

07/31/2004 01:16:57 AM · #49

Originally posted by bdobe:

Here's my favorite photo...

Sad.

Ok, for all the people in the world that are easily distracted by shinny objects, Iâ��ll explain this once, so pay attention. He declared the end of â��major combatâ�� not the end of â��all combatâ��. And since the Abraham Lincoln was setting off San Diego and heading into port itâ��s â��missionâ�� was accomplished. Find a point that makes sense.

sher