| Author | Thread |
|
|
09/24/2011 06:50:12 PM · #101 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by JH:
It's the lesser of two evils. At least keeping him 'in a cage' means his kids don't have to live with the trauma that he was executed. What kid could possibly get their head around that? - In a cage he'll be there in the background, and eventually fade in their memories. |
...and just how would that differ from the child of a soldier who perished in a theater of war, a father or mother who was killed in a car accident, a loved one suffering for years on end with a disease such as cancer?
Sorry my friend, but children, particularly young ones adapt quite well when confronted with the demise of a family member, and this situation is not all that different.
Ray |
I disagree, Ray. It's very different. Accidents rob lives, war is a brutal mess, but the controlled-environment extermination of another human is on another level. The kid argument isn't mine, but try growing up knowing that society wanted your father removed from the earth, and they did it. |
|
|
|
09/24/2011 07:02:53 PM · #102 |
Originally posted by bohemka:
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by JH:
It's the lesser of two evils. At least keeping him 'in a cage' means his kids don't have to live with the trauma that he was executed. What kid could possibly get their head around that? - In a cage he'll be there in the background, and eventually fade in their memories. |
...and just how would that differ from the child of a soldier who perished in a theater of war, a father or mother who was killed in a car accident, a loved one suffering for years on end with a disease such as cancer?
Sorry my friend, but children, particularly young ones adapt quite well when confronted with the demise of a family member, and this situation is not all that different.
Ray |
I disagree, Ray. It's very different. Accidents rob lives, war is a brutal mess, but the controlled-environment extermination of another human is on another level. The kid argument isn't mine, but try growing up knowing that society wanted your father removed from the earth, and they did it. |
...oh, and I assume that you earnestly believe that war is not a controlled environment. The only difference is that in war we do not know exactly who will die, but there do exist statistics that can readily demonstrate what percentage of casualties of your personnel will die.
Regarding your argument relative to society wanting one's father exterminated, when one considers the length of time that passes from sentencing to the actual meting out of punishment, that child you allude to would be a full fledged adult... surely they would have learned to understand the reasoning behind the process.
We will simply have to agree to disagree on this one I guess.
Ray |
|
|
|
09/24/2011 07:14:22 PM · #103 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by JH:
It's the lesser of two evils. At least keeping him 'in a cage' means his kids don't have to live with the trauma that he was executed. What kid could possibly get their head around that? - In a cage he'll be there in the background, and eventually fade in their memories. |
...and just how would that differ from the child of a soldier who perished in a theater of war, a father or mother who was killed in a car accident, a loved one suffering for years on end with a disease such as cancer? |
Because in the case of execution, or in murder cases, the person was killed 'on purpose' by somebody else. And they didn't have to die.
The only comparable example is the child of a soldier, but at least then the child can be told their parent died an honorable death. Which is a bit easier than "Yes sweetie, these men strapped daddy to a table and gave him an injection that killed him" - That'd mess with anyone's head. |
|
|
|
09/24/2011 07:26:03 PM · #104 |
Originally posted by JH:
The only comparable example is the child of a soldier, but at least then the child can be told their parent died an honorable death. Which is a bit easier than "Yes sweetie, these men strapped daddy to a table and gave him an injection that killed him" - That'd mess with anyone's head. |
I will work on the premise that you did NOT read the latter part of my submission, namely that from the time the judgement is passed to the execution, that child you refer to would be an adult.
What would one say to a child whose father was killed in a shootout with the police... or is that somehow different.
Dealing with death is never easy, but I can't say that I feel any higher level of compassion for one whose father was executed by the state versus any other person.
Ray
|
|
|
|
09/24/2011 07:27:17 PM · #105 |
Originally posted by JH:
Which is a bit easier than "Yes sweetie, these men strapped daddy to a table and gave him an injection that killed him" - That'd mess with anyone's head. |
There's always "Yes, sweetie, your dad raped and killed several young girls and left others to starve to death." That'd mess with someone's head, too. Kind of a no-win situation in some cases, I'd say. |
|
|
|
09/24/2011 07:31:48 PM · #106 |
Originally posted by blindjustice:
Technically the crime is against the state- |
When I read this comment, it brought back memories of a rape case that was before the courts in Canada many, many years ago. When they charges were read, ... "The Queen vs ???" the victim blurted out: "T'wasn't the Queen that got raped...T'was me".
Funny how we seem to lose track of the victims when dealing with crime eh?
Ray |
|
|
|
09/24/2011 08:10:12 PM · #107 |
| Funny how we seem to believe that the state is more likely to perpetrate justice than the victim ... |
|
|
|
09/24/2011 08:19:18 PM · #108 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by JH:
The only comparable example is the child of a soldier, but at least then the child can be told their parent died an honorable death. Which is a bit easier than "Yes sweetie, these men strapped daddy to a table and gave him an injection that killed him" - That'd mess with anyone's head. |
I will work on the premise that you did NOT read the latter part of my submission, namely that from the time the judgement is passed to the execution, that child you refer to would be an adult. |
No, I didn't see there was a page 2 to the thread and hit 'quote' on your page 1 post. But point taken.
Doesn't make it any easier on the family though. The knowledge their father is in prison is bad enough, knowing that they're going to die in there is even worse. In the case of murder, the victims family are going through hell, by executing the murderer you're then putting another family through a similar hell (the only difference being criminal murder versus controlled 'state' murder)
Or does executing the murderer really make the victims family feel that much better?
Message edited by author 2011-09-24 20:19:29. |
|
|
|
09/24/2011 08:28:06 PM · #109 |
The problem with allowing victims to exact their own vengeance, is that they need an outlet for their revenge. That desire can fasten on the first viable suspect, less because of certain guilt of the suspect, than the hunger for payback of the victim or their family and friends.
The state is supposed to be dispassionate about justice, and that dispassion has real benefits. In cultures with honor killings and blood debts, there is a more visceral sense of justice, but the targets of that justice are much more random.
Interestingly in cases where the state has an emotional involvement, such as a case where an officer is killed (as in the Troy Davis case) that detachment disappears, and there is a much higher likelyhood of a rush to justice, and hence a higher chance of wrongful conviction. |
|
|
|
09/24/2011 09:02:45 PM · #110 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
The problem with allowing victims to exact their own vengeance, is that they need an outlet for their revenge. That desire can fasten on the first viable suspect, less because of certain guilt of the suspect, than the hunger for payback of the victim or their family and friends.
The state is supposed to be dispassionate about justice, and that dispassion has real benefits. In cultures with honor killings and blood debts, there is a more visceral sense of justice, but the targets of that justice are much more random.
Interestingly in cases where the state has an emotional involvement, such as a case where an officer is killed (as in the Troy Davis case) that detachment disappears, and there is a much higher likelyhood of a rush to justice, and hence a higher chance of wrongful conviction. |
Yes that is the problem...problem that State will do everything to solve a murder of an officer, but not do the same for a Non-Cop victim. |
|
|
|
09/24/2011 09:16:08 PM · #111 |
Originally posted by JH:
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by JH:
The only comparable example is the child of a soldier, but at least then the child can be told their parent died an honorable death. Which is a bit easier than "Yes sweetie, these men strapped daddy to a table and gave him an injection that killed him" - That'd mess with anyone's head. |
I will work on the premise that you did NOT read the latter part of my submission, namely that from the time the judgement is passed to the execution, that child you refer to would be an adult. |
No, I didn't see there was a page 2 to the thread and hit 'quote' on your page 1 post. But point taken.
Doesn't make it any easier on the family though. The knowledge their father is in prison is bad enough, knowing that they're going to die in there is even worse. In the case of murder, the victims family are going through hell, by executing the murderer you're then putting another family through a similar hell (the only difference being criminal murder versus controlled 'state' murder)
Or does executing the murderer really make the victims family feel that much better? |
Lets say it was a Gang initiation" Drive by shooting"
Murderer made his choices, and if he didn't care/think about his family... please don't insult real victims and victims families. Murderers kids can only point the finger at the Daddy. |
|
|
|
09/25/2011 12:23:14 AM · #112 |
| Committing a crime such as murder, rape, theft, etc is not a lifestyle choice. I don't think people wake up in the morning thinking, "I could go play golf with Ernie today... But I feel more like killing someone. Many criminals come from poverty-stricken and oppressed backgrounds which affects their mental health. Criminals should be counseled, rehabilitated, and assisted. Of course the gravity of their actions cannot be ignored and this is another thing a criminal should face. But a prison or death is not the way to do it. It is a bandaid over the wounds of a sick society. |
|
|
|
09/25/2011 12:25:32 AM · #113 |
Originally posted by CrazyDiamond:
Committing a crime such as murder, rape, theft, etc is not a lifestyle choice. I don't think people wake up in the morning thinking, "I could go play golf with Ernie today... But I feel more like killing someone. Many criminals come from poverty-stricken and oppressed backgrounds which affects their mental health. Criminals should be counseled, rehabilitated, and assisted. Of course the gravity of their actions cannot be ignored and this is another thing a criminal should face. But a prison or death is not the way to do it. It is a bandaid over the wounds of a sick society. |
Actually... You're mostly right, but wrong in a few cases. There really are people who do wake up and decide that they are going to go and kill someone, be it for money, or honor, or simple street cred. I know it's a hard concept to grasp, but there really are people who will gladly kill you for less than I pay for a week's rent. |
|
|
|
09/25/2011 01:03:44 AM · #114 |
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by CrazyDiamond:
Committing a crime such as murder, rape, theft, etc is not a lifestyle choice. I don't think people wake up in the morning thinking, "I could go play golf with Ernie today... But I feel more like killing someone. Many criminals come from poverty-stricken and oppressed backgrounds which affects their mental health. Criminals should be counseled, rehabilitated, and assisted. Of course the gravity of their actions cannot be ignored and this is another thing a criminal should face. But a prison or death is not the way to do it. It is a bandaid over the wounds of a sick society. |
Actually... You're mostly right, but wrong in a few cases. There really are people who do wake up and decide that they are going to go and kill someone, be it for money, or honor, or simple street cred. I know it's a hard concept to grasp, but there really are people who will gladly kill you for less than I pay for a week's rent. |
But I think you are missing CRAZYdiamond's point - it's not their fault - they are merely a product of a sick society. *double-eyeroll* |
|
|
|
09/25/2011 02:10:24 AM · #115 |
It is easier to become a criminal if you come from certain backgrounds, but there is always a choice involved. A few years ago I read an interesting book by one of the early members of an LA gang, the Crips, called monster. Towards the start of the book he talks about the struggles growing up in a single parent family in south central, How his brother became a manager in a supermarket chain, his sister worked her way up the ranks at a bank, but for himself he chose a criminal life. Given the same tough background, his siblings became productive members of society and cared for their families, he chose to become a killer, a thug and a monster. It's a good read.
Message edited by author 2011-09-25 03:50:01. |
|
|
|
09/25/2011 07:35:43 AM · #116 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
It is easier to become a criminal if you come from certain backgrounds, but there is always a choice involved. A few years ago I read an interesting book by one of the early members of an LA gang, the Crips, called monster. Towards the start of the book he talks about the struggles growing up in a single parent family in south central, How his brother became a manager in a supermarket chain, his sister worked her way up the ranks at a bank, but for himself he chose a criminal life. Given the same tough background, his siblings became productive members of society and cared for their families, he chose to become a killer, a thug and a monster. It's a good read. |
I love the description on Amazon, including- "although characters flit across the page in a confusing manner..." sounds good though, probably a lot more insight into gang violence than one visit to LA and several hours playing GTA San Andreas... |
|
|
|
09/26/2011 09:38:08 AM · #117 |
Originally posted by Basta:
just something to think about to all you Anti-Death Penalty promoters
Think about this scenario: ( I don't wish this to anyone)
A criminal brakes into your home.
rapes and butchers all your family members..somehow only you survive ...
I know you would love to see that creep rehabilitated so he can be paroled after couple years. |
A little late to reply, but here goes (I had this conversation with my mother once).
I would want to see him suffer. The death penalty would be too good for the killer. I would want to see him tortured (Check the Korean movie: I Saw the Devil. Good movie). However, I do have religious beliefs that tell me that it's not the way. One of the hardest things we humans have to do (Learn to do), something that can take a lifetime to learn, is forgiveness. Without it, you aren't walking forward. You're just holding yourself backillers' victims who have said there was 'some relief' but there is never any true 'closure'.
For those who talk about money, how much it costs to house criminals vs death row...sorry, but I don't think budgets should determine whether or not we send people to the chair.
So let me reverse the situation:
Your son, husband, daughter or wife was caught in an area where a murder had taken place. Under whatever circumstances, they are the only person the cops have as a possible suspect. They go to court and with the justice system not always proving affective, your loved one (innocent) is proven guilty. Death awaits. You do what you can to find the real killer but you can't, not in time. Then, years later the real killer comes along by means of another crime. Are you still happy the death penalty is in place. Had it not been, your loved one would be alive and freed.
We sit at home knowing we'll never commit these crimes (I hope) but if somewhere along the line in your life, you or someone you love is in the wrong place at the wrong time, that's when I think you'll start thinking differently.
|
|
|
|
09/26/2011 03:12:55 PM · #118 |
Originally posted by heavyj:
For those who talk about money, how much it costs to house criminals vs death row...sorry, but I don't think budgets should determine whether or not we send people to the chair. |
In California at least, it costs more to process a capital case to its conclusion than to house a prisoner for life without parole.
As a side benefit, abandoning the death penalty would enlarge the jury pool for major cases by not automatically excluding anyone who, however intelligent, contientious and unbiased, happens to oppose capital punishment. |
|
|
|
09/26/2011 03:30:14 PM · #119 |
Originally posted by heavyj:
Originally posted by Basta:
just something to think about to all you Anti-Death Penalty promoters
Think about this scenario: ( I don't wish this to anyone)
A criminal brakes into your home.
rapes and butchers all your family members..somehow only you survive ...
I know you would love to see that creep rehabilitated so he can be paroled after couple years. |
A little late to reply, but here goes (I had this conversation with my mother once).
I would want to see him suffer. The death penalty would be too good for the killer. I would want to see him tortured (Check the Korean movie: I Saw the Devil. Good movie). However, I do have religious beliefs that tell me that it's not the way. One of the hardest things we humans have to do (Learn to do), something that can take a lifetime to learn, is forgiveness. Without it, you aren't walking forward. You're just holding yourself backillers' victims who have said there was 'some relief' but there is never any true 'closure'.
For those who talk about money, how much it costs to house criminals vs death row...sorry, but I don't think budgets should determine whether or not we send people to the chai
So let me reverse the situation:
Your son, husband, daughter or wife was caught in an area where a murder had taken place. Under whatever circumstances, they are the only person the cops have as a possible suspect. They go to court and with the justice system not always proving affective, your loved one (innocent) is proven guilty. Death awaits. You do what you can to find the real killer but you can't, not in time. Then, years later the real killer comes along by means of another crime. Are you still happy the death penalty is in place. Had it not been, your loved one would be alive and freed.
We sit at home knowing we'll never commit these crimes (I hope) but if somewhere along the line in your life, you or someone you love is in the wrong place at the wrong time, that's when I think you'll start thinking differently. |
I have seen that movie, its a good one. ( I'm not the fan of Hollywood big production stuff)
Forgiveness sound good, but in my opinion some things can not and should not be forgiven...
Why do you think its ok to put innocent person in prison for life (if someone is innocent) but its not ok to send him to chair? If someone is innocent they shouldn't be convicted to start with. What you are saying is that justice system is broken( and that is true).
People will protest putting a criminal to death , but I never hear about protesting in front of courts requesting Judges, lawyers , cops.....to be held responsible for a wrong conviction...
Is it really ok to imprison someone for lets say 20 years, and than one day say...ooops sorry you are free to go, lets just forget about this incident?
or even better extreme.... someone was in prison till they died for something they did not do....how is that better to him then executing?
Real problem with Death penalty is that its not used in cases it should...lets say when there is NO question criminal is guilty of killing in cold blood and everyone knows he is way to dangerous to ever see the light of the day...but he said he was sorry at the trial..so he got 15 consecutive life sentences. Is that really the solution?
Money? just a simple , run of the mill, criminal needs to be in prison... its the Crazy ones costing the crazy amounts...for a way to long. it takes 20-30 years to get rid off them.... or it takes as long as doctors can keep them alive if the are serving life...
|
|
|
|
09/26/2011 03:41:13 PM · #120 |
Originally posted by Basta:
Why do you think its ok to put innocent person in prison for life (if someone is innocent) but its not ok to send him to chair? If someone is innocent they shouldn't be convicted to start with. What you are saying is that justice system is broken( and that is true).
People will protest putting a criminal to death , but I never hear about protesting in front of courts requesting Judges, lawyers , cops.....to be held responsible for a wrong conviction... |
It's not "OK", but at least a wrongful conviction can be overturned, and the innocent prisoner feed and (at least partly compensated) for their unjust inprisonment.
If you noted my previous post, "only" 17 of 273 exonerations in which the Innocence Project participated were death-penalty cases, meaning that over 250 other wrongfully-convicted prisoners have been released in the past few years.
Just because you don't hear about protests of unjust inprisonment doesn't mean it isn't going on. |
|
|
|
09/26/2011 03:41:54 PM · #121 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by heavyj:
For those who talk about money, how much it costs to house criminals vs death row...sorry, but I don't think budgets should determine whether or not we send people to the chair. |
In California at least, it costs more to process a capital case to its conclusion than to house a prisoner for life without parole.
As a side benefit, abandoning the death penalty would enlarge the jury pool for major cases by not automatically excluding anyone who, however intelligent, contientious and unbiased, happens to oppose capital punishment. |
That reminds me of another problem. When there is no question of guilt, and the crime is no question deserving off the chair.. and than you have ONE "intelligent" juror that just opposes Death Penalty .... so the society ends up with a total human trash that gets paroled in a couple years...that is how we get repeat cold blood murder... |
|
|
|
09/26/2011 03:49:08 PM · #122 |
Originally posted by Basta:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by heavyj:
For those who talk about money, how much it costs to house criminals vs death row...sorry, but I don't think budgets should determine whether or not we send people to the chair. |
In California at least, it costs more to process a capital case to its conclusion than to house a prisoner for life without parole.
As a side benefit, abandoning the death penalty would enlarge the jury pool for major cases by not automatically excluding anyone who, however intelligent, contientious and unbiased, happens to oppose capital punishment. |
That reminds me of another problem. When there is no question of guilt, and the crime is no question deserving off the chair.. and than you have ONE "intelligent" juror that just opposes Death Penalty .... so the society ends up with a total human trash that gets paroled in a couple years...that is how we get repeat cold blood murder... |
First off, those opposed to capital punishment are typically excluded from serving on those juries. And in virtually every case, the alternative to the death penalty is life without the possibility of parole, not getting out in "a couple of years." |
|
|
|
09/26/2011 04:19:40 PM · #123 |
 GeneralE
Typically excluded? so they could be on?
I'm NOT saying lets go in prisons and kill them all. Some bad apples are out there, they just should not be running around. I don't even like the idea that they could. Prison break, parole....
I'm in Michigan. Outgoing Governor Granholm paroled 100 inmates on her way out...many of them on a murder conviction. There was a big deal when a family member of a murder victim ran into a Guy who was paroled ( serving life as an alternative)... I guess you can call that a surprise...
And as a conclusion, most of 100 are back in prison...
edit Sorry she Pardoned not Paroled
Message edited by author 2011-09-26 16:22:48. |
|
|
|
09/26/2011 05:42:09 PM · #124 |
Originally posted by Spork99:
Originally posted by TheDruid:
Originally posted by Spork99:
Originally posted by TheDruid:
lols, the death penalty is antiquated thinking, it does not bring back the person killed. Its just eye for an eye - tooth for a tooth. |
Nothing can bring the viictim back, so then doing nothing is the best approach?
The message of the death penalty should be..."What you have done is so heinous that we have decided to remove you from society completely...you are not even worth housing and feeding as an inmate for the rest of your days so you will be euthanized." |
Well, there is nothing correctional about euthanization. Death, in many ways, is not a penalty to the criminal anyway. It is a release from their crime against society. |
It's also a release for society from paying to shelter, care and feed them. |
lols, so thats why there should be a death penalty. To releave the pocket book of expense. You can make it even cheaper by having a person shot on the spot :-)
Message edited by author 2011-09-26 17:44:39. |
|
|
|
09/26/2011 09:16:35 PM · #125 |
Originally posted by Basta:
Forgiveness sound good, but in my opinion some things can not and should not be forgiven... |
I suppose that is a matter of personal opinion. Watch a few documentaries on the death penalty, or on victims' families visiting their killers in jail. You'll find that a good majority of them feel they can move on with their lives because they have found it in themselves to forgive the killer. Those are strong people and those people will never forget the lose they suffered but will continue on with life.
Originally posted by Basta:
Why do you think its ok to put innocent person in prison for life (if someone is innocent) but its not ok to send him to chair? If someone is innocent they shouldn't be convicted to start with. What you are saying is that justice system is broken( and that is true). |
I never said it was OK for a person to go to jail for life. I never said any person who is innocent should have to be punished in any manner. It is unfortunate though that the justice system in ANY country can make mistakes. People spend 20 or 30 years in jail only to be released years later after new technology comes along that shows they didn't do it.
Originally posted by Basta:
People will protest putting a criminal to death , but I never hear about protesting in front of courts requesting Judges, lawyers , cops.....to be held responsible for a wrong conviction...
Is it really ok to imprison someone for lets say 20 years, and than one day say...ooops sorry you are free to go, lets just forget about this incident? |
Not true. People are constantly fighting to overturn convictions. The West Memphis Three comes to mind as something recent. Amanda Knox in Italy (From what I know and have read I don't believe she did it). There are so many cases of people being freed and compensated for their time that it's only the most 'dramatic' stories that make it to the news.
Originally posted by Basta:
or even better extreme.... someone was in prison till they died for something they did not do....how is that better to him then executing? |
It happens. But IMO that's apples and oranges. As terrible as jail might be, if you spend your life in jail you can still live your life (Although with fewer freedoms). This would be a personal preference as to how you would like to live out the rest of your life. If convicted of a crime you did not commit would you ask to be shot or would you live the rest of your life trying your best to prove that you didn't do it? I'd be professing and professing.
Originally posted by Basta:
Real problem with Death penalty is that its not used in cases it should...lets say when there is NO question criminal is guilty of killing in cold blood and everyone knows he is way to dangerous to ever see the light of the day...but he said he was sorry at the trial..so he got 15 consecutive life sentences. Is that really the solution? |
Who gets to determine what is and isn't a case for the death penalty? There are too many variables to each case.
Originally posted by Basta:
Money? just a simple , run of the mill, criminal needs to be in prison... its the Crazy ones costing the crazy amounts...for a way to long. it takes 20-30 years to get rid off them.... or it takes as long as doctors can keep them alive if the are serving life... |
Have you ever heard of cases being overturned after 20 or 30 years? Had these 'crazies' not been given the chance to defend themselves they would be victims themselves. Money should not be a determining factor in whether or not a person should be put to death or serve life.
And...you still haven't answered my question: What would you do if you lost your loved one to a death penalty case knowing he/she was innocent and they later evidence came forward of it? Are you still happy that the death penalty is in place? Is your loved ones life a 'good' sacrifice so that the majority of people you think should die (death row inmates) will die?
Message edited by author 2011-09-26 21:19:08. |
|
