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09/30/2011 07:23:13 PM · #251 |
Originally posted by Spork99:
"Ultimately, while Mr. Davis's new evidence casts some additional, minimal doubt on his conviction, it is largely smoke and mirrors." (2)
"As a body, this evidence does not change the balance of proof that was presented at Mr.
Davis's trial."(2) |
It is a sad fact that no evidence but that admitted into evidence in the original trial can be used in appeals, but that is the system we have.
There were nine witnesses to the murder who were creditable enough to give testimony for the prosecution in the original case, seven of which recanted their testimony at the appeal. Those recantations and their stories of being pressured to sign documents they did not write and give coached testimony to things they now claim they never saw. This is dismissed as "smoke and mirrors". Lacking any physical evidence to tie the defendant to the murder, the majority of the case was based on eyewitness testimony, and the majority of those witnesses recanted.
I did not see mention of that single persuasive fact in any of the links you posted. The seven recanters are no longer believable now, but they were when they helped convict a man. How is that? Have the allegations of police misconduct in this investigation been investigated? No, and they never will be, because Mr. Davis is dead. |
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09/30/2011 09:02:12 PM · #252 |
| oddly enough, many of the biggest proponents of the death penalty are the religiously righteous. Oddly because, if the "afterlife" is truly what matters, there is no need to exact vengeance of that scope here. although, a good public stoning always brightened up old testament morale. |
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09/30/2011 09:56:06 PM · #253 |
Originally posted by blindjustice:
oddly enough, many of the biggest proponents of the death penalty are the religiously righteous. Oddly because, if the "afterlife" is truly what matters, there is no need to exact vengeance of that scope here. although, a good public stoning always brightened up old testament morale. |
I wonder if death penalty advocates also want to again start chopping off the hands of those who steal a loaf of bread ... :-( |
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10/03/2011 09:29:19 AM · #254 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
Originally posted by Spork99:
"Ultimately, while Mr. Davis's new evidence casts some additional, minimal doubt on his conviction, it is largely smoke and mirrors." (2)
"As a body, this evidence does not change the balance of proof that was presented at Mr.
Davis's trial."(2) |
It is a sad fact that no evidence but that admitted into evidence in the original trial can be used in appeals, but that is the system we have.
There were nine witnesses to the murder who were creditable enough to give testimony for the prosecution in the original case, seven of which recanted their testimony at the appeal. Those recantations and their stories of being pressured to sign documents they did not write and give coached testimony to things they now claim they never saw. This is dismissed as "smoke and mirrors". Lacking any physical evidence to tie the defendant to the murder, the majority of the case was based on eyewitness testimony, and the majority of those witnesses recanted.
I did not see mention of that single persuasive fact in any of the links you posted. The seven recanters are no longer believable now, but they were when they helped convict a man. How is that? Have the allegations of police misconduct in this investigation been investigated? No, and they never will be, because Mr. Davis is dead. |
How clear is your recollection of events from a week ago? How clear is it from 20 years ago? The fact is that memories change over time, the longer the time span, the greater the change, the lesser the credibility.
Also, if you testified against someone and they got convicted, sentenced to death, and yopu had to live near their family, wouldn't you make up stories about "being pressured" or change your story after the fact? |
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10/03/2011 09:31:34 AM · #255 |
Originally posted by blindjustice:
oddly enough, many of the biggest proponents of the death penalty are the religiously righteous. Oddly because, if the "afterlife" is truly what matters, there is no need to exact vengeance of that scope here. although, a good public stoning always brightened up old testament morale. |
I for one, don't believe the fairy tales.
I find it odd that many death penalty opponents, also are in favor of allowing abortion. Seems hypocritical. Same theing with those who favor the death penalty being opposed to abortion. |
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10/03/2011 09:38:54 AM · #256 |
Originally posted by Spork99:
Originally posted by blindjustice:
oddly enough, many of the biggest proponents of the death penalty are the religiously righteous. Oddly because, if the "afterlife" is truly what matters, there is no need to exact vengeance of that scope here. although, a good public stoning always brightened up old testament morale. |
I for one, don't believe the fairy tales.
I find it odd that many death penalty opponents, also are in favor of allowing abortion. Seems hypocritical. Same theing with those who favor the death penalty being opposed to abortion. |
that was the personal inconsistency i mentioned about myself earlier. how could i be against abortion, but favor killing someone older, or being in favor of war where i knew people would be killed.
i know for some it is a gray area, and they have their reasons, but for me, personally, i had to find one side to be on, not both of them. |
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10/03/2011 01:27:37 PM · #257 |
Originally posted by blindjustice:
oddly enough, many of the biggest proponents of the death penalty are the religiously righteous. |
One of the justifications of the death penalty among followers of the Bible is the lines form Exodus and Matthew "An eye for an eye, a tooth of a tooth" so the logic goes killers should be killed. It is in the Bible afterall.
What they miss in their quick reading is that these were spoken of as limitations, the absolute maximum punishments.Both biblical quotes have their roots in the Code of Hammurabi, the basis of much of the western worlds legal thinking, and the oldest written book of contract law. It is surmised that in societies not bound by the rule of law, if a person was hurt, then the injured person (or their relative) would take vengeful retribution on the person who caused the injury. The retribution might be much worse than the crime, perhaps even death. The code tried to put an end to the cycle of vengeance.
So when you hear a person speak of the Bible's call for exacting reciprocal vengance, remind them that an "eye for an eye" is a restriction, not a prescription.
Message edited by author 2011-10-03 14:59:51. |
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10/03/2011 08:14:15 PM · #258 |
Originally posted by Spork99:
Originally posted by blindjustice:
oddly enough, many of the biggest proponents of the death penalty are the religiously righteous. Oddly because, if the "afterlife" is truly what matters, there is no need to exact vengeance of that scope here. although, a good public stoning always brightened up old testament morale. |
I for one, don't believe the fairy tales.
I find it odd that many death penalty opponents, also are in favor of allowing abortion. Seems hypocritical. Same theing with those who favor the death penalty being opposed to abortion. |
I don't believe in fairy tales either, but I believe in the Bible. I don't believe it to be the EXACT words of God, but I still believe in Him.
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
Originally posted by blindjustice:
oddly enough, many of the biggest proponents of the death penalty are the religiously righteous. |
One of the justifications of the death penalty among followers of the Bible is the lines form Exodus and Matthew "An eye for an eye, a tooth of a tooth" so the logic goes killers should be killed. It is in the Bible afterall.
What they miss in their quick reading is that these were spoken of as limitations, the absolute maximum punishments.Both biblical quotes have their roots in the Code of Hammurabi, the basis of much of the western worlds legal thinking, and the oldest written book of contract law. It is surmised that in societies not bound by the rule of law, if a person was hurt, then the injured person (or their relative) would take vengeful retribution on the person who caused the injury. The retribution might be much worse than the crime, perhaps even death. The code tried to put an end to the cycle of vengeance.
So when you hear a person speak of the Bible's call for exacting reciprocal vengance, remind them that an "eye for an eye" is a restriction, not a prescription. |
Well said. I often try to point this out to others but haven't quite done it so eloquently as you have. |
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10/03/2011 09:21:06 PM · #259 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
...So when you hear a person speak of the Bible's call for exacting reciprocal vengance, remind them that an "eye for an eye" is a restriction, not a prescription. |
...and one could argue that given the extent of appeals available, the punishment meted out in places such as America are in essence the ultimate in restrictions.
Ray |
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10/03/2011 09:44:46 PM · #260 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
...and one could argue that given the extent of appeals available, the punishment meted out in places such as America are in essence the ultimate in restrictions.
Ray |
Could you argue that it's restrictions are greater than in the vast majority of the countries in the world which have banned the death penalty? I would love to hear that argument. |
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10/03/2011 10:06:10 PM · #261 |
Originally posted by heavyj:
Originally posted by Spork99:
Originally posted by blindjustice:
oddly enough, many of the biggest proponents of the death penalty are the religiously righteous. Oddly because, if the "afterlife" is truly what matters, there is no need to exact vengeance of that scope here. although, a good public stoning always brightened up old testament morale. |
I for one, don't believe the fairy tales.
I find it odd that many death penalty opponents, also are in favor of allowing abortion. Seems hypocritical. Same theing with those who favor the death penalty being opposed to abortion. |
I don't believe in fairy tales either, but I believe in the Bible. I don't believe it to be the EXACT words of God, but I still believe in Him.
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
Originally posted by blindjustice:
oddly enough, many of the biggest proponents of the death penalty are the religiously righteous. |
One of the justifications of the death penalty among followers of the Bible is the lines form Exodus and Matthew "An eye for an eye, a tooth of a tooth" so the logic goes killers should be killed. It is in the Bible afterall.
What they miss in their quick reading is that these were spoken of as limitations, the absolute maximum punishments.Both biblical quotes have their roots in the Code of Hammurabi, the basis of much of the western worlds legal thinking, and the oldest written book of contract law. It is surmised that in societies not bound by the rule of law, if a person was hurt, then the injured person (or their relative) would take vengeful retribution on the person who caused the injury. The retribution might be much worse than the crime, perhaps even death. The code tried to put an end to the cycle of vengeance.
So when you hear a person speak of the Bible's call for exacting reciprocal vengance, remind them that an "eye for an eye" is a restriction, not a prescription. |
Well said. I often try to point this out to others but haven't quite done it so eloquently as you have. |
@Brennan your point is terrific. I remember in some religious class, or perhaps a sermon- or perhaps even a lecture on Judaism and the ten commandments, a specific point being made that "Thou shalt not kill" was actually "Thou shalt not murder" - allowing for acts of capital punishment, war, and (the occasional sacrifice of the child to test the honest man type of killing that went on in the old testament)
This explanation always had me a bit taken aback, perhaps at my naiveté that the church would back away from the "love thy enemies" "turn the other cheek" stance. Of course then we get into layer upon layer of discussion about hypocrisy. I guess its better to say, bless our troops, than tell them they are all murderers, which Jesus might do... Let me just say I don't believe they are murderers, but Jesus would, not me- and he would think those who carry out the death penalty are murderers as well. in fact, who hated the death penalty more than Jesus? ans. nobody. Religion would not really justify any killing, slavery, etc... right? |
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10/04/2011 12:01:42 AM · #262 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
Originally posted by RayEthier:
...and one could argue that given the extent of appeals available, the punishment meted out in places such as America are in essence the ultimate in restrictions.
Ray |
Could you argue that it's restrictions are greater than in the vast majority of the countries in the world which have banned the death penalty? I would love to hear that argument. |
You will note that I was not proferring that argument in the least as I was very site specific since we are dealing with a punishment meted out on an American citizen in accordance with American jurisprudence.
When one considers the number of appeals available it does indeed meet the tests you alluded to in the first instance. Regarding the second proposal, there truly is no comparisson now... is there.
Ray
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10/04/2011 02:35:47 AM · #263 |
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10/04/2011 09:43:47 AM · #264 |
Filet o' Pedophile is back on the menu at British Mcdonalds, apparently. |
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10/04/2011 11:49:06 AM · #265 |
Originally posted by blindjustice:
oddly enough, many of the biggest proponents of the death penalty are the religiously righteous. Oddly because, if the "afterlife" is truly what matters, there is no need to exact vengeance of that scope here. although, a good public stoning always brightened up old testament morale. |
I think this is a commonly perpetuated stereotype and one that may not hold water if examined.
A 2009 gallup poll (the first I could easily find) put the support of capital punishment as follows:
Republican 81%
Independent 67%
Democrat 48%
Church attendance in another gallup poll (2005) by political party:
Every week or almost:
Republican 85%
Independent 52%
Democrat 63%
I only see the roughest correlation and it is every bit as likely that those who support capital punishment and are religious have in common that they believe in republican political views and THAT is the root of their support for capital punishment.
A correlary argument would be to ask for evidence to show that Christian groups in European countries are protesting the lack of capital punishment in their country and that this protest is widespread among adherents. Can you do so?
Nobody would question my religious identity and yet I am quite against the death penalty. I am far from being an oddity within the Christian faith. Stop, please, with the sterotypes unless you care to back it up with facts.
Message edited by author 2011-10-04 11:52:36. |
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10/04/2011 12:06:35 PM · #266 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by blindjustice:
oddly enough, many of the biggest proponents of the death penalty are the religiously righteous. Oddly because, if the "afterlife" is truly what matters, there is no need to exact vengeance of that scope here. although, a good public stoning always brightened up old testament morale. |
I think this is a commonly perpetuated stereotype and one that may not hold water if examined.
A 2009 gallup poll (the first I could easily find) put the support of capital punishment as follows:
Republican 81%
Independent 67%
Democrat 48%
Church attendance in another gallup poll (2005) by political party:
Every week or almost:
Republican 85%
Independent 52%
Democrat 63%
I only see the roughest correlation and it is every bit as likely that those who support capital punishment and are religious have in common that they believe in republican political views and THAT is the root of their support for capital punishment.
A correlary argument would be to ask for evidence to show that Christian groups in European countries are protesting the lack of capital punishment in their country and that this protest is widespread among adherents. Can you do so?
Nobody would question my religious identity and yet I am quite against the death penalty. I am far from being an oddity within the Christian faith. Stop, please, with the sterotypes unless you care to back it up with facts. |
I'd have to agree with you on this. It just so happens that Christians in this county tend to fall into the republican category, thus confusing people into believing it's religious views and not political views than bend them towards this option.
As for opposing abortion and being pro death penalty, I agree it's hyprocsy. But not so for the opposite view. The reason being those who claim they are "saving lives" by opposing abortion claim it's all about the potential human while disposing of a living, breathing human life with the capital punishment. While those who are pro choice feel a fetus is not a person in the first place (not saying it doesn't have the potential to become a person, just that it's not one at that point). |
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10/04/2011 12:33:09 PM · #267 |
I found another gallup poll for 2004 that had support for capital punishment by church attendance:
Weekly 65%
Monthly 69%
Seldom/Never 71%
Since the argument being proposed is made on Biblical support from the Old Testament, it would seem natural that Jews would also support capital punishment. I think the jewish population is too small for gallup to measure in the US, but Isreal does not have capital punishment and has only executed one person according to wiki, a Nazi war criminal in 1962. |
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10/04/2011 01:02:15 PM · #268 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I think the jewish population is too small for gallup to measure in the US ... |
Really? The Jewish population of the US is about 5,324,944 (as of July, 2011) according to the CIA World Factbook. |
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10/04/2011 01:52:40 PM · #269 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I think the jewish population is too small for gallup to measure in the US ... |
Really? The Jewish population of the US is about 5,324,944 (as of July, 2011) according to the CIA World Factbook. |
Dunno. I'm just talking about statistics. If you do a random telephone poll only 1-2 out of 100 will be jewish. What's your point?
The implied word was to measure "accurately" I suppose, but you are smart enough to know that.
Message edited by author 2011-10-04 13:53:28. |
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10/04/2011 02:06:23 PM · #270 |
I'm saying that I think Gallup's budget and sampling methods would (and do) allow for a reasonable estimate of opinions broken down by religious affiliation, including Jewish, Muslim, or none. I'm pretty sure I've heard polling results broken down by religion before.
If the answer to this specific question was required, I'm sure they could obtain the data given enough time and money.
You could also visit a couple of local synagogues yourself and ask ... |
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10/04/2011 02:16:23 PM · #271 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
I'm saying that I think Gallup's budget and sampling methods would (and do) allow for a reasonable estimate of opinions broken down by religious affiliation, including Jewish, Muslim, or none. I'm pretty sure I've heard polling results broken down by religion before.
If the answer to this specific question was required, I'm sure they could obtain the data given enough time and money.
You could also visit a couple of local synagogues yourself and ask ... |
I actually would think the same thing, but I never saw any religions mentioned other than protestant and catholic. I searched out the data and couldn't find it. My first assumption is sample size, but maybe Gallup has some other reason for not including Jews as a sample group. If you can find the data, it would be interesting to have. |
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10/04/2011 02:18:35 PM · #272 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I found another gallup poll for 2004 that had support for capital punishment by church attendance:
Weekly 65%
Monthly 69%
Seldom/Never 71%
Since the argument being proposed is made on Biblical support from the Old Testament, it would seem natural that Jews would also support capital punishment. I think the jewish population is too small for gallup to measure in the US, but Isreal does not have capital punishment and has only executed one person according to wiki, a Nazi war criminal in 1962. |
First off, you are calling me out for not backing up my argument with statistics? Its would full time job going around and doing that in these *opinion* forums. Secondly, "Many of the biggest proponents" is my quote. I didn't say only, or most, or any other statistical quantifier.
My point was that based upon the major religions I know, Christianity highlighted, a true follower can't be a true follower and support the death penalty, or war, etc. For there to be any who call themselves "Christians" and support the death penalty- that would be statistically too many.
Message edited by author 2011-10-04 14:20:12. |
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10/04/2011 02:29:04 PM · #273 |
Because these posts involve the written word and much is lost without verbal emphasis, you need to be extra careful. Your post involved what wiki terms "weasel words". What is "many"? How do we determine "biggest"? Who are you talking about specifically? Anyway, if your point was to state that the juxtaposition between Christianity and Capital punishment is interesting because of an apparent contradiction, I would have recommended leaving the comment about "a good public stoning". it's only inflammatory. I would have actually agreed with your point as your reposted.
Many of the most greedy people in the world are lawyers.
What do you think the implications of this statement are if you read it?
Just be more careful with what you write. 'nuff said.
Message edited by author 2011-10-04 14:29:53. |
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10/04/2011 04:24:11 PM · #274 |
| Well, I say ... Torches anyone? |
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10/04/2011 04:29:27 PM · #275 |
| "Many lawyers are the most greedy people in the world." :) |
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