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08/09/2011 07:16:47 PM · #51 |
Originally posted by senor_kasper:
No, it does not imply that. I personally see a few alternatives but all of them involve violence of some kind (plastic bullets, water cannons, tear gas, etc). It is you who questioned plastic bullets as a valid method of controlling the situation, so, I was curious to know what kind of alternative you would propose. I still don't see a clear answer. |
Well, i mentioned a more prepared, organised police presence above, and that is happening, and i also mentioned water cannons. But 'clear answer', sigh, of course not. I wish there was. But really, on the tv as i speak, the police in Manchester are doing a statement and talking about youths of 9, 10 and 11 year old looting and smashing windows in the city centre and i honestly can't believe that shooting them with plastic bullets can be the solution. I can't help it. It's horrific. |
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08/09/2011 07:23:10 PM · #52 |
Originally posted by clive_patric_nolan:
Originally posted by paulbtlw:
I don't think the riots are motivated by any form or sense of social justice. This isn't the targeted attacks against Tory HQ like we saw with the student riots. That had a clear focus, clear message and a degree of legitimacy about it. This is disjointed, opportunistic and only has post-hoc rationalisation of social deprivation as a pseudo-excuse to rob.
I was told to leave work early today so the building could be secured, my journey took me through Handsworth and the streets were unusually busy - young people out in small groups excitedly chatting on phones; nothing ominous there but a palpable sense of excitement. Much of this rioting is being done as entertainment, by a generation where significant sections of the population expect everything they want without challenge, by right.
I was fortunate enough to catch a speech a while ago by Malcolm Maclaren a few months before he died. He was critical of today's karaoke culture and asked the audience 'When did it become cool to be stupid?'. I think that's a fair summary of where we are. Aspirations of many are self-centred but without the work-ethic to deliver; people who are every bit as selfish as the worst of the cynical financial profiteers but without even the decency to make a concerted effort to achieve their selfish aims. To cast them as a struggling put-upon underclass is to miss that if you were to give them a lottery win, not a penny would find it's way back into their community; they would merely gratify their materialistic yearnings by moving somewhere with a long drive. No different in their attitude to social responsibility to the hedge fund manager making millions on the back of ruinous activities masquerading as 'wealth creation'.
There's little true disenfranchisement here, just frustration about their perceived mismatch between what the world 'owes' them and what they have. And 13 is plenty old enough to have developed that mindset. |
Cheers for that Paul. I get what you are saying, and agree with much of it but i do think that there is a level of disenfranchisement at the heart of much of this. It is, as you say, oppotunistic and in no way political or focused and driven by a crazy almost nihilistic thrill seeking which is horrible. But- there are hugely deprived areas in the country and i think that ignoring that is detrimental to understanding what is happening. |
I actually believe its more basic than this.. I see it a lot on our streets - youth demanding `respect` but not actually understanding the meaning of the word. These people feel that the world owes them something - to them life is supposed to be more `glam` than it really is. They don`t think that being provided with shelter, medical care, food and opportunites by the state is enough - they think they are entitled to smartphones, widescreen TVs and PS3s but don`t want to work for it - there are (or were) plenty of jobs out there for these, but they want to get rich quick and live the gangsta/hip hop lifestyle without putting any work in . They hate authority - and with each subsequent offspring they produce they bring another hater into the world x2 - I am more than happy for my taxes being used to help these people, but they dont want help - they want everything handed to them on a plate and are jealous of those who make something of their lives through grafting and hard work - and they demonstrate this by destroying and stealing and causing chaos.
The one video that actually made me feel physically sick today, was the guy who had been beaten up, and some youths gathered around pretending to help him, but then started going through his rucksack and stealing his belongings.. evil evil evil.
Sadly,I have no idea how this could ever be fixed. |
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08/09/2011 07:23:50 PM · #53 |
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by ray_mefarso:
We live in West London and my son has just come home from playing football. After his game he met a number of friends/acquaintances/old school mates who were determined to create some mayhem and get some of the riot action that's going on. The ringleader, who my son remembers as being one of the dumbest people in his school, insisted that they had superior numbers on their side and should attack the police and local shops and anybody who didn't join in the plan would be 'punched out' My son didn't join the group which is just as well as they were all arrested 400 yards and 3 smashed windows later.
The area we live in is not particularly wealthy or particularly deprived. I know some of the kids involved and they are not what you might call disadvantaged. To me they are a mix of greedy, silly, bored, impressionable, normally powerless, somewhat disenfranchised, and testosterone-laden. Add to this a number of external factors (well documented in the news reports) and I think you get the London riots in microcosm. Should the authorities use rubber bullets/water cannon whatever to stop the violence and destruction? Maybe. it's important to protect the lives and property of citizens but I think those same authorities should look at the external and social factors that trigger these events - some of them are common to every riot I can remember.
Just because protest behaviour is self-destructive, mindless, thuggish, greedy doesn't mean that there aren't underlying issues. |
And just because there are underlying issues doesn't mean that anyone should have to put up with their behavior.
Let me ask you this- if these kids were doing this, say.... 4000 years ago, in a tribal system, running around lighting huts on fire, smashing pots, killing livestock and burning seed stocks along with the crops - what do you think the tribe would have done with them? My suspicion is that they would have been either driven out of the area entirely, or killed on the spot - probably the latter. I think our modern system lacks something in effectiveness that was present in earlier times. More civil, sure... But that does lead to an unfortunately large group of.. what do you call them? Yobs? Why not just call them criminals? That's what they are after all... Mindless antisocial criminals. |
You're right - people shouldn't have to put up with that behaviour and that's why the criminals (yes, why call them yobs) got arrested and will have to answer for their actions in court. The discussion here seems to be about how we deal with the actual situation. But if we're smart we will also try and address some of the underlying issues so that we don't have more riots next summer.
There are many things about a tribal system that you don't mention which make living in a modern democracy preferable. |
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08/09/2011 07:24:47 PM · #54 |
Originally posted by paulbtlw:
I don't think the riots are motivated by any form or sense of social justice. This isn't the targeted attacks against Tory HQ like we saw with the student riots. That had a clear focus, clear message and a degree of legitimacy about it. This is disjointed, opportunistic and only has post-hoc rationalisation of social deprivation as a pseudo-excuse to rob.
I was told to leave work early today so the building could be secured, my journey took me through Handsworth and the streets were unusually busy - young people out in small groups excitedly chatting on phones; nothing ominous there but a palpable sense of excitement. Much of this rioting is being done as entertainment, by a generation where significant sections of the population expect everything they want without challenge, by right.
I was fortunate enough to catch a speech a while ago by Malcolm Maclaren a few months before he died. He was critical of today's karaoke culture and asked the audience 'When did it become cool to be stupid?'. I think that's a fair summary of where we are. Aspirations of many are self-centred but without the work-ethic to deliver; people who are every bit as selfish as the worst of the cynical financial profiteers but without even the decency to make a concerted effort to achieve their selfish aims. To cast them as a struggling put-upon underclass is to miss that if you were to give them a lottery win, not a penny would find it's way back into their community; they would merely gratify their materialistic yearnings by moving somewhere with a long drive. No different in their attitude to social responsibility to the hedge fund manager making millions on the back of ruinous activities masquerading as 'wealth creation'.
There's little true disenfranchisement here, just frustration about their perceived mismatch between what the world 'owes' them and what they have. And 13 is plenty old enough to have developed that mindset. |
+1, I was trying to stay out of this discussion but you have expressed exactly what I think about this.
To add - why would 13 years old wear masks if they didn't know it was wrong to steal and burn property?
Quite often I see burnt out cars near bicycles trails here, especially after a weekend. I find it difficult to accept that local police consider this a "petty crime" and do nothing about it. Just the youth having "teenage fun". To me that's what happened in UK on a gigantic scale. It is school holidays time, youth have nothing to do so why not do some stealing and burning.
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08/09/2011 07:27:52 PM · #55 |
Originally posted by clive_patric_nolan:
Originally posted by senor_kasper:
No, it does not imply that. I personally see a few alternatives but all of them involve violence of some kind (plastic bullets, water cannons, tear gas, etc). It is you who questioned plastic bullets as a valid method of controlling the situation, so, I was curious to know what kind of alternative you would propose. I still don't see a clear answer. |
Well, i mentioned a more prepared, organised police presence above, and that is happening, and i also mentioned water cannons. But 'clear answer', sigh, of course not. I wish there was. But really, on the tv as i speak, the police in Manchester are doing a statement and talking about youths of 9, 10 and 11 year old looting and smashing windows in the city centre and i honestly can't believe that shooting them with plastic bullets can be the solution. I can't help it. It's horrific. |
CPN, sometimes the mere threat of plastic bullets will have the desired reaction - once they have seen a few of the co-criminals take a lump of plastic to the back or a limb they will think twice when the launcher is pointed at them.. Case in hand is the use of Tazers - the police have said that since they have been allowed to carry them and draw them, as soon as a large majority of criminals are dotted, that is, the tazer drawn and the laser dot is on them - they soon drop their weapon or give up the fight without the trigger being pulled. I understand your reluctance to accept plastic bullets - but these kids are old enough/savvy enough to understand that looting is wrong, they are old enough to understand that there could be repercussions. |
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08/09/2011 07:30:43 PM · #56 |
Okay, now there are 'unconfirmed reports' of a firearm discharged at a police officer in Birmingham.
Send in the army ffs.
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08/09/2011 07:36:41 PM · #57 |
Originally posted by clive_patric_nolan:
Originally posted by senor_kasper:
Now it's clear why you did not answer the question directly in the first place, you don't have an alternative to offer. |
I don't have alternative to shooting them with plastic bullets? So that kind of implies that you see 'no alternative' to shooting them with plastic bullets. Do you honestly think that there is no other way to get this situation under control? |
The people in their mob mentality are now speaking a different language. The respect, the street cred, the alpha maleness naturally goes to those who are stronger. These kids are testing waters and proving again and again by burning down shops and gathering a sizable booty without an iota of resistance from the police that they are strong; invincible. With this false sense of invincibility they will take bigger risks which will result in bigger losses. The only way to take down their egos is to bring out the guns, literally, because that brings the insecurity back.
And I honestly doubt once the shots start any of these idiots would actually stand around to get shot. The police isn't going to start snipering the youngest and the weakest. They're going to take out the biggest threats so I think the 13 year olds with their shiny x-boxes are going to be back home the second they feel threatened.
Message edited by author 2011-08-09 19:51:28.
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08/09/2011 07:38:47 PM · #58 |
Originally posted by JH:
Okay, now there are 'unconfirmed reports' of a firearm discharged at a police officer in Birmingham.
Send in the army ffs. |
Yeah, we need the police back handling the test match at Edgbaston tomorrow.
Message edited by author 2011-08-09 19:40:41. |
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08/09/2011 07:40:45 PM · #59 |
| They lost my support when they burnt a Greggs down.. Oh the humanity! |
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08/09/2011 07:41:03 PM · #60 |
Wow.
I moved out of UK 2 years ago, 1 of the reasons for this was the state of the government at the time and in my opinion it has got worse. David Cameron is doing a great job. It is not a dig at him, more the "nanny state" as it has been mentioned. My faith in the police was lost after I was assaulted and informed by police that the girl would not be prosecuted as it was her first offence so I was left with a dead tooth and a law enforcement that think my personal experiences are nothing to them.
So where do they start to take notice and enforce the law? At burnt out cars? It wouls seem not. At burnt out shops and businesses? Nope. At rioting?
Plastic Bullets, a good thing or a bad thing? Why not?
When there is hooliganism at footie matches in Europe they use water cannons and it sorts things out pretty quick, you dont see the hooligans still rioting after 4 days. The police get tough (all be it they are prepared) and they stay in control and on top of things.
Why not use tear gas/capsicum spray. Anything it takes to get those yobs, regardless of their age, off the streets.
I have respect for the police as individuals, they do a very brave job, I couldnt do it. But as a whole they need to show who is boss by whatever means possible.
Grrrr!
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08/09/2011 07:42:56 PM · #61 |
Originally posted by Simms:
They lost my support when they burnt a Greggs down.. Oh the humanity! |
Yea, well, you know what they say: 'You can't riot without a SteakBake'. Should be their new slogon. |
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08/09/2011 07:53:24 PM · #62 |
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08/09/2011 07:59:51 PM · #63 |
Yes. Thanks for posting that raish. I'd read it earlier and it very much sums up a lot of what i feel, and am getting at. |
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08/09/2011 08:13:40 PM · #64 |
The usual socialist bullcrap. |
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08/09/2011 08:17:33 PM · #65 |
Originally posted by senor_kasper:
The usual socialist bullcrap. |
Well, of course some people see it as that. Other people see the 'shoot 'em and just lock 'em up and not think about why it happened' as bullshit as well. |
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08/09/2011 08:17:38 PM · #66 |
what worries me here in the states is that we are starting to have the situations all over on a smaller scale, these flash mobs are getting more frequent are more violent and are racially motivated.
we need to start realizing this and calling it what it is. they aren't riots over the economy like whats being reported, these are thugs. there are no repercussions for there actions, they realize they can do what they want when they want, and there is nothing to stop them until when the public realizes the only way to be safe is to carry a concealed weapon and start firing at these thugs.
the governments need to start pulling out all the stops, it doesn't matter if they are kids, they know what they are doings and fear needs to be instilled back into them that civil society wont tolerate this behavior.
its going to get ugly.
we have been way to easy on criminals, that needs to end.
Message edited by author 2011-08-09 20:20:09. |
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08/09/2011 08:20:11 PM · #67 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
what worries me here in the states is that we are starting to have the situations all over on a smaller scale, these flash mobs are getting more frequent are more violent and are racially motivated.
we need to start realizing this and calling it what it is. they aren't riots over the economy like whats being reported, these are thugs. there are no repercussions for there actions, they realize they can do what they want when they want, and there is nothing to stop them until when the public realizes the only way to be safe is to carry a concealed weapon and start firing at these thugs.
the governments need to start pulling out all the stops, it doesn't matter if they are kids, they know what they are doings and fear needs to be instilled back into them that civil society wont tolerate this behavior.
its going to get ugly. |
Your not wrong there, they will intensify in the USA as well, sign of the times. |
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08/09/2011 08:21:22 PM · #68 |
Originally posted by clive_patric_nolan:
Originally posted by senor_kasper:
The usual socialist bullcrap. |
Well, of course some people see it as that. Other people see the 'shoot 'em and just lock 'em up and not think about why it happened' as bullshit as well. |
Well, the pity is that socialism is a great part of why this is happening in the first place, but those that embrace the socialist ideology are completely blind to that. |
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08/09/2011 08:27:16 PM · #69 |
Originally posted by senor_kasper:
Originally posted by clive_patric_nolan:
Originally posted by senor_kasper:
The usual socialist bullcrap. |
Well, of course some people see it as that. Other people see the 'shoot 'em and just lock 'em up and not think about why it happened' as bullshit as well. |
Well, the pity is that socialism is a great part of why this is happening in the first place, but those that embrace the socialist ideology are completely blind to that. |
Again, i'd say many people would say that the corrupt form of late capitalism is a great part of why this is happening in the first place, but those that embrace that ideology are completely blind to that. I guess it's been said before but perhaps the rioters haven't quite fucked up the country as much as the bankers have yet. |
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08/09/2011 08:27:35 PM · #70 |
Originally posted by Simms:
I actually believe its more basic than this.. I see it a lot on our streets - youth demanding `respect` but not actually understanding the meaning of the word. These people feel that the world owes them something - to them life is supposed to be more `glam` than it really is. They don`t think that being provided with shelter, medical care, food and opportunites by the state is enough - they think they are entitled to smartphones, widescreen TVs and PS3s but don`t want to work for it - there are (or were) plenty of jobs out there for these, but they want to get rich quick and live the gangsta/hip hop lifestyle without putting any work in . They hate authority - and with each subsequent offspring they produce they bring another hater into the world x2 - I am more than happy for my taxes being used to help these people, but they dont want help - they want everything handed to them on a plate and are jealous of those who make something of their lives through grafting and hard work - and they demonstrate this by destroying and stealing and causing chaos.
Sadly,I have no idea how this could ever be fixed. |
to add if these were legitimate protest like what is happeningin others parts of teh worls, its good we need to really let the governments know we wont tolerate this any longer. but what Simms is saying is correct. These are race riots pure and simple under another guise. lets really bring back capital and corporal punishment and remove the lengthy drawn out appeals process and you see this end real quick. |
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08/09/2011 08:29:00 PM · #71 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
its going to get ugly.
we have been way to easy on criminals, that needs to end. |
there is nothing to scare youngsters away from a life of unlawful persuits. Thay get a slap on the hand,Oops, sorry not allowed to slap, they get a good telling off.
Jail sentences are too leanient (spell check) Life should mean life, not life but if you are good you can be free in 20 years.
Get hard, be scared of doing wrong, be afraid of the consequences.
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08/09/2011 08:29:55 PM · #72 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
These are race riots pure and simple under another guise. |
No they aren't. |
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08/09/2011 08:30:02 PM · #73 |
Originally posted by supanova:
Get hard, be scared of doing wrong, be afraid of the consequences. |
bingo |
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08/09/2011 08:30:42 PM · #74 |
Originally posted by clive_patric_nolan:
Originally posted by mike_311:
These are race riots pure and simple under another guise. |
No they aren't. |
really? then what are they? |
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08/09/2011 08:34:05 PM · #75 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
Originally posted by clive_patric_nolan:
Originally posted by mike_311:
These are race riots pure and simple under another guise. |
No they aren't. |
really? then what are they? |
Dude, have you seen the photos from the UK riots? Many are black, yes, probaly even a majority, but these are in no way race riots. There are many many white rioters involved as can be seen from the photos taken and interviews of those participating.
Like i said above, i've lived in Tottenham (where the riots started) and Brixton and whilst there is some racial tension on the whole they are ok-ish examples of multi-culturism working quite well.
Message edited by author 2011-08-09 20:36:22. |
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