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05/18/2011 12:43:15 PM · #76 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by disassociation:
I think it is also very important to keep in mind the opinions of the actual people involved in regards to prostitution: Many people are happy to make moral calls for these women and decide what is 'best' for them, but you will often find that this can clash distinctly with the opinions of some of the women themselves. |
89% of prostitutes indicate they would choose another profession if they felt they could. They already know what's 'best' for them... |
Assuming that this statistic isn't the product of rectal extraction... So? What about the 11% who are happy? Also, your statistic says nothing about the aspects of the work that cause them to wish they had different work. It's likely that they're unhappy, not because of the work itself, but the criminal environment that surrounds it.
I be willing to bet that a significant portion of people in any career field would choose differently if they felt they could. I would. |
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05/18/2011 12:45:49 PM · #77 |
Originally posted by disassociation:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
89% of prostitutes indicate they would choose another profession if they felt they could. They already know what's 'best' for them... |
So the other 11% get screwed out an opportunity for safe working practices?
I'm sure there are more than 89% of deep mine workers who would choose another profession if they could - or janitors, sewerage treatment plant workers, mcdonalds fry cooks, walmart checkers, trash collectors... Im not comparing all these jobs to getting f@#$ked for a living of course (although I could tell you some stories about minimum wage jobs...), but for every 10 people that hate their jobs and are driven into it by necessity, there are a few that love it and wouldnt do anything else either. Sometimes they are well compensated for it, most times not, and in every other industry but prostitution there are legal controls in place to protect these people.
And really, if you are 100% on criminalizing prostitution, you would need to be 100% on criminalizing that thriving sex film industry as well... because how is it any different to get paid to have sex with someone if there just happens to be a camera filming it? And what about dominatrixes? Who are arguably quite firmly in the sex industry but very rarely actually perform any sex acts with their clients? |
This is seriously your argument?
BTW, and Bear can take this point too, the point is not to say 89% want out so we must make it criminal, the point was you said it was very important to ask the women themselves their opinion about the industry before we pass any judgement ("I think it is also very important to keep in mind the opinions of the actual people involved in regards to prostitution"). Well, someone did. 89% said they wanted out but felt trapped. Doesn't seem like a very strong argument to look to their opinions as a bulwark for legalization.
Pointing out the harms of prostitution to the women who practice it is like shooting fish in a barrel.
Message edited by author 2011-05-18 12:47:29. |
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05/18/2011 01:01:47 PM · #78 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by disassociation:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
89% of prostitutes indicate they would choose another profession if they felt they could. They already know what's 'best' for them... |
So the other 11% get screwed out an opportunity for safe working practices?
I'm sure there are more than 89% of deep mine workers who would choose another profession if they could - or janitors, sewerage treatment plant workers, mcdonalds fry cooks, walmart checkers, trash collectors... Im not comparing all these jobs to getting f@#$ked for a living of course (although I could tell you some stories about minimum wage jobs...), but for every 10 people that hate their jobs and are driven into it by necessity, there are a few that love it and wouldnt do anything else either. Sometimes they are well compensated for it, most times not, and in every other industry but prostitution there are legal controls in place to protect these people.
And really, if you are 100% on criminalizing prostitution, you would need to be 100% on criminalizing that thriving sex film industry as well... because how is it any different to get paid to have sex with someone if there just happens to be a camera filming it? And what about dominatrixes? Who are arguably quite firmly in the sex industry but very rarely actually perform any sex acts with their clients? |
This is seriously your argument?
BTW, and Bear can take this point too, the point is not to say 89% want out so we must make it criminal, the point was you said it was very important to ask the women themselves their opinion about the industry before we pass any judgement ("I think it is also very important to keep in mind the opinions of the actual people involved in regards to prostitution"). Well, someone did. 89% said they wanted out but felt trapped. Doesn't seem like a very strong argument to look to their opinions as a bulwark for legalization.
Pointing out the harms of prostitution to the women who practice it is like shooting fish in a barrel. |
I know I've felt trapped when I worked in customer service, I wanted out, but felt I had no options.
If 89% of teachers were unhappy with teaching, should we make teaching illegal? Or maybe a better idea is to work to improve the things about the profession that make so many practicioners unhappy? I'd wager that it's more about the criminality (pimps, drugs etc.) surrounding prostitution than the actual work itself.
Since it's like shooting fish in a barrel, why not take a few shots? Go on. Tell us, what is the harm in consenting adults agreeing to payment in exchange for sex?
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05/18/2011 01:12:05 PM · #79 |
Originally posted by Spork99:
Since it's like shooting fish in a barrel, why not take a few shots? Go on. Tell us, what is the harm in consenting adults agreeing to payment in exchange for sex? |
I'd be happy to if you would please read it this time since you obviously aren't reading above:
Achoo: "the point is not to say 89% want out so we must make it criminal"
Spork: "If 89% of teachers were unhappy with teaching, should we make teaching illegal?"
So this time, read carefully...
Raymond, D’Cunha, et al. (2002) found that 80% of women who had been trafficked or prostituted suffered violence-related injuries in prostitution. Among the women interviewed by Parriott (1994), 85% had been raped in prostitution. In another study, 94% of those in street prostitution had experienced sexual assault and 75% had been raped by one or more johns (Miller, 1995). In the Netherlands, where prostitution is legal, 60% of prostituted women suffered physical assaults; 70% experienced verbal threats of physical assault; 40% experienced sexual violence; and 40% had been forced into prostitution or sexual abuse by acquaintances (Vanwesenbeeck, 1994). Most young women in prostitution were abused or beaten by johns as well as pimps. Silbert and Pines (1981, 1982b) reported that 70% of women suffered rape in prostitution, with 65% having been physically assaulted by customers and 66% assaulted by pimps.
Of 854 people in prostitution in nine countries (Canada, Colombia, Germany, Mexico, South Africa, Thailand, Turkey, United States, and Zambia), 71% experienced physical assaults in prostitution, and 62% reported rapes in prostitution (Farley, Cotton, et al., 2003).
Message edited by author 2011-05-18 13:12:27. |
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05/18/2011 01:17:58 PM · #80 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by Spork99:
Since it's like shooting fish in a barrel, why not take a few shots? Go on. Tell us, what is the harm in consenting adults agreeing to payment in exchange for sex? |
I'd be happy to if you would please read it this time since you obviously aren't reading above:
Achoo: "the point is not to say 89% want out so we must make it criminal"
Spork: "If 89% of teachers were unhappy with teaching, should we make teaching illegal?"
So this time, read carefully...
Raymond, D’Cunha, et al. (2002) found that 80% of women who had been trafficked or prostituted suffered violence-related injuries in prostitution. Among the women interviewed by Parriott (1994), 85% had been raped in prostitution. In another study, 94% of those in street prostitution had experienced sexual assault and 75% had been raped by one or more johns (Miller, 1995). In the Netherlands, where prostitution is legal, 60% of prostituted women suffered physical assaults; 70% experienced verbal threats of physical assault; 40% experienced sexual violence; and 40% had been forced into prostitution or sexual abuse by acquaintances (Vanwesenbeeck, 1994). Most young women in prostitution were abused or beaten by johns as well as pimps. Silbert and Pines (1981, 1982b) reported that 70% of women suffered rape in prostitution, with 65% having been physically assaulted by customers and 66% assaulted by pimps.
Of 854 people in prostitution in nine countries (Canada, Colombia, Germany, Mexico, South Africa, Thailand, Turkey, United States, and Zambia), 71% experienced physical assaults in prostitution, and 62% reported rapes in prostitution (Farley, Cotton, et al., 2003). |
The failure here isn't in the profession, but in the regulation. Obviously there needs to be more over-seeing and better handling of the workplace(s). If there are still pimps, then that's not really 'legal' is it? Proper legalization would get rid of pimping altogether.
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05/18/2011 01:28:09 PM · #81 |
Originally posted by K10DGuy:
The failure here isn't in the profession, but in the regulation. Obviously there needs to be more over-seeing and better handling of the workplace(s). If there are still pimps, then that's not really 'legal' is it? Proper legalization would get rid of pimping altogether. |
You saw that some of those stats came from countries where it was legal, right? And how are you going to not have pimping? There will always be people putting up the cash to pay the overhead for the brothel. How are they not a pimp? And how is this whole point not tangential? The violence done is mainly by the johns. If you could keep the prostitution and get rid of them, then maybe we're onto something... ;)
Message edited by author 2011-05-18 13:28:53. |
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05/18/2011 01:34:36 PM · #82 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by K10DGuy:
The failure here isn't in the profession, but in the regulation. Obviously there needs to be more over-seeing and better handling of the workplace(s). If there are still pimps, then that's not really 'legal' is it? Proper legalization would get rid of pimping altogether. |
You saw that some of those stats came from countries where it was legal, right? And how are you going to not have pimping? There will always be people putting up the cash to pay the overhead for the brothel. How are they not a pimp? And how is this whole point not tangential? The violence done is mainly by the johns. If you could keep the prostitution and get rid of them, then maybe we're onto something... ;) |
So what you are saying Doc, is that if a safe system of sex work and brothels could be put in place that protected the workers from all unwanted and unarranged violence and trouble you would be all for it? I totally agree with you there and think all the others that agree with legalising prostitution would as well. As you pointed out there hasn't been a perfect legalised system yet but hopefully it could happen. |
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05/18/2011 01:39:19 PM · #83 |
Originally posted by clive_patric_nolan:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by K10DGuy:
The failure here isn't in the profession, but in the regulation. Obviously there needs to be more over-seeing and better handling of the workplace(s). If there are still pimps, then that's not really 'legal' is it? Proper legalization would get rid of pimping altogether. |
You saw that some of those stats came from countries where it was legal, right? And how are you going to not have pimping? There will always be people putting up the cash to pay the overhead for the brothel. How are they not a pimp? And how is this whole point not tangential? The violence done is mainly by the johns. If you could keep the prostitution and get rid of them, then maybe we're onto something... ;) |
So what you are saying Doc, is that if a safe system of sex work and brothels could be put in place that protected the workers from all unwanted and unarranged violence and trouble you would be all for it? I totally agree with you there and think all the others that agree with legalising prostitution would as well. As you pointed out there hasn't been a perfect legalised system yet but hopefully it could happen. |
It would never be PERFECT, and there'll always be people that choose to work on their own and put themselves in danger, but there CAN be better checks and balances and regulations and safety measures. Just like any work place.
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05/18/2011 01:43:22 PM · #84 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by Spork99:
Since it's like shooting fish in a barrel, why not take a few shots? Go on. Tell us, what is the harm in consenting adults agreeing to payment in exchange for sex? |
I'd be happy to if you would please read it this time since you obviously aren't reading above:
Achoo: "the point is not to say 89% want out so we must make it criminal"
Spork: "If 89% of teachers were unhappy with teaching, should we make teaching illegal?"
So this time, read carefully...
Raymond, D’Cunha, et al. (2002) found that 80% of women who had been trafficked or prostituted suffered violence-related injuries in prostitution. Among the women interviewed by Parriott (1994), 85% had been raped in prostitution. In another study, 94% of those in street prostitution had experienced sexual assault and 75% had been raped by one or more johns (Miller, 1995). In the Netherlands, where prostitution is legal, 60% of prostituted women suffered physical assaults; 70% experienced verbal threats of physical assault; 40% experienced sexual violence; and 40% had been forced into prostitution or sexual abuse by acquaintances (Vanwesenbeeck, 1994). Most young women in prostitution were abused or beaten by johns as well as pimps. Silbert and Pines (1981, 1982b) reported that 70% of women suffered rape in prostitution, with 65% having been physically assaulted by customers and 66% assaulted by pimps.
Of 854 people in prostitution in nine countries (Canada, Colombia, Germany, Mexico, South Africa, Thailand, Turkey, United States, and Zambia), 71% experienced physical assaults in prostitution, and 62% reported rapes in prostitution (Farley, Cotton, et al., 2003). |
I read that, but none of those examples are pertinent to the question I asked. They are either products of prostitution being criminalized or crimes themselves, not a product of the consensual agreement between adults to exchange sex for money. |
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05/18/2011 01:45:08 PM · #85 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by K10DGuy:
The failure here isn't in the profession, but in the regulation. Obviously there needs to be more over-seeing and better handling of the workplace(s). If there are still pimps, then that's not really 'legal' is it? Proper legalization would get rid of pimping altogether. |
You saw that some of those stats came from countries where it was legal, right? And how are you going to not have pimping? There will always be people putting up the cash to pay the overhead for the brothel. How are they not a pimp? And how is this whole point not tangential? The violence done is mainly by the johns. If you could keep the prostitution and get rid of them, then maybe we're onto something... ;) |
You could use the same argument talking about clerks at late night convenience stores. The violence done in robberies is done mainly by the customers... |
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05/18/2011 01:51:06 PM · #86 |
So if we want to consider an ideal form of prostitution, something akin to speed dating where you just skip the chit-chat and get on with it, where everybody is happy, everybody is fulfilled, then that's fine. The point is we're never ever going to even come close. Look at yourselves. Sometimes the libertarian streak here is completely beyond the pale. What other industry could present numbers even 1/10th as high as the violence against these women and we would say, "ya, that's acceptable."?!?
I think people need to reflect upon the idea that "consenting" isn't some all-powerful notion that makes things unharmful or deleteriious. I've only hit upon the physical violence. I didn't even talk about the emotional/psychological violence. How comfortable are you with quotes like these:
"At work, what my hands find when they touch my body is “product.”
Away from work, my body has continuity, integrity. Last
night, lying in bed after work, I touchedmybelly,my breasts. They
felt like Capri’s [her peep show name] and they refused to switch
back. When [her partner] kissed me I inadvertently shrunk from
his touch. Shocked, we both jerked away and stared at each other.
Somehowthe glass had dissolved, and he had become one of them."
Regardless of the variations in the type of prostitution, women feel
that they have to rent out the most intimate parts of the body to
anonymous strangers to use as a hole to jerk off in. The women try
to keep themselves as unharmed as possible from this massive
invasion by maintaining a distance from the customer. (Hoigard&
Finstad, 1986, p. 132)
If anything a prostitute treats herself like a chair for someone to sit
on. Her mind goes blank. She just lies there. You become just an
object. . . . After a while it becomes just a normal thing. (McLeod,
1982, p. 39)
Prostitution is like rape. It’s like when I was 15 years old and I was
raped. I used to experience leaving my body. I mean that’s what I
did when that man raped me. I went to the ceiling, and I numbed
myself because I didn’t want to feel what I was feeling. I was very
frightened. And while I was a prostitute I used to do that all the
time. I would numb my feelings. I wouldn’t even feel like I was in
my body. I would actually leave my body and go somewhere else
with my thoughts and with my feelings until he got off, and it was
over with. I don’t know how else to explain it except that it felt like
rape. It was rape to me. (Giobbe, 1991, p. 144)
Everybody is entitled to an opinion, but forgive me if I don't want any association with this field of work. I value women more than that. |
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05/18/2011 01:53:41 PM · #87 |
Done by the customers? I don't think so mate. It is done by the criminals.
In the overall scheme of things none of this you folks are worrying about will be of any concern when you are trying to find something to eat. |
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05/18/2011 01:53:42 PM · #88 |
Originally posted by Spork99:
I read that, but none of those examples are pertinent to the question I asked. They are either products of prostitution being criminalized or crimes themselves, not a product of the consensual agreement between adults to exchange sex for money. |
At this point I guess I need to just ask what you are looking for for evidence for me to present? Give me specifics of what you will say, "ya, that's harm". |
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05/18/2011 01:56:56 PM · #89 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I value women more than that. |
That's not what i'm getting from your opinions and attitude on this at all. |
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05/18/2011 01:57:54 PM · #90 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by Spork99:
I read that, but none of those examples are pertinent to the question I asked. They are either products of prostitution being criminalized or crimes themselves, not a product of the consensual agreement between adults to exchange sex for money. |
At this point I guess I need to just ask what you are looking for for evidence for me to present? Give me specifics of what you will say, "ya, that's harm". |
The point is that you can't do it.
Such an agreement between two consenting adults and its consummation is harmless. |
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05/18/2011 01:58:56 PM · #91 |
Originally posted by clive_patric_nolan:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I value women more than that. |
That's not what i'm getting from your opinions and attitude on this at all. |
I'm not too worried about your opinion Clive. If you think prostitution is some means to feminist empowerment, you are completely out there... |
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05/18/2011 02:00:01 PM · #92 |
Originally posted by Spork99:
The point is that you can't do it.
Such an agreement between two consenting adults and its consummation is harmless. |
That's what I figured. Your mind is closed. Made up. You've gone FOX news. You'd make it far in a debate with this line of argument my friend... |
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05/18/2011 02:01:18 PM · #93 |
I admire you for trying DrAchoo.
It is beyond me how it is possible to ignore the fact that over 80% of women in prostitution are rape victims. That it is possible to ignore the fact that so many start at the age of 12-14. You are not an adult at 12-14, even less a consenting adult.
I am pretty sure that all those in favor of prostitution would not see it as a good career choice should their daughters tell them some morning while putting cereal on their plates that they have made an appointment to discuss a career in prostitution. Would not certainly not want their wives or girlfriends to go into prostitution. |
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05/18/2011 02:03:43 PM · #94 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by Spork99:
The point is that you can't do it.
Such an agreement between two consenting adults and its consummation is harmless. |
That's what I figured. Your mind is closed. Made up. You've gone FOX news. You'd make it far in a debate with this line of argument my friend... |
I'm open to hearing how such an agreement is harmful, you simply can't do it. |
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05/18/2011 02:04:07 PM · #95 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
'm not too worried about your opinion Clive. |
Well, ditto there Doc. I still feel slightly nauseous when i think about your unsavoury views on homosexuality.
Grr! I knew i shouldn't have stepped into this thread with certain people. Winds me up too much. Ha!
Message edited by author 2011-05-18 14:06:54. |
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05/18/2011 02:09:30 PM · #96 |
Originally posted by GuGi:
I admire you for trying DrAchoo.
It is beyond me how it is possible to ignore the fact that over 80% of women in prostitution are rape victims. That it is possible to ignore the fact that so many start at the age of 12-14. You are not an adult at 12-14, even less a consenting adult.
I am pretty sure that all those in favor of prostitution would not see it as a good career choice should their daughters tell them some morning while putting cereal on their plates that they have made an appointment to discuss a career in prostitution. Would not certainly not want their wives or girlfriends to go into prostitution. |
Again, you're talking about other crimes or children, not the harm caused by adults agreeing to exchange sex for money.
I don't really want my kids to tell me about their appointment for discussing career options running the cash register at McDonald's, but that doesn't mean it should be illegal. Other people would go nuts if their kids wanted to explore career options in the military...
Everyone can't be a Doctor and save the world. |
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05/18/2011 02:12:49 PM · #97 |
Originally posted by clive_patric_nolan:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
'm not too worried about your opinion Clive. |
Well, ditto there Doc. I still feel slightly nauseous when i think about your unsavoury views on homosexuality.
Grr! I knew i shouldn't have stepped into this thread with certain people. Winds me up too much. Ha! |
Aww, don't get all wound up. Debate is debate and people do get hot under the collar, but in the end we're just discussing ideas (which currently do not involve homosexuality). Just take it for what it's worth.
Sorry Spork, I agree. If the evidence present isn't going to sway you, I doubt anything would. So, as GuGi asked, are you going to put on a brave face and tell me your daughter (if you have one) is welcome to be a prostitute if she elects to do so? You wouldn't try to talk her out of it? |
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05/18/2011 02:16:21 PM · #98 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Aww, don't get all wound up. Debate is debate and people do get hot under the collar, but in the end we're just discussing ideas (which currently do not involve homosexuality). Just take it for what it's worth. |
Ah, i'm not too wound up. That's what the Ha! was for. I do appreciate debate. I'm just rubbish at it! ;) |
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05/18/2011 02:18:55 PM · #99 |
Originally posted by clive_patric_nolan:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Aww, don't get all wound up. Debate is debate and people do get hot under the collar, but in the end we're just discussing ideas (which currently do not involve homosexuality). Just take it for what it's worth. |
Ah, i'm not too wound up. That's what the Ha! was for. I do appreciate debate. I'm just rubbish at it! ;) |
Well, practice makes perfect. It's a lost art and frankly you aren't the only person who's rubbish at it on this thread. ;)
We can go back to taking pictures now. One thing I need to learn much, much better is to make my point and then let it be. I think my opinion has been presented and I should leave it at that. |
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05/18/2011 02:20:05 PM · #100 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I value women more than that. |
Ehh probably shouldnt jump back into this but I will anyway :)
What you posted, is accurate for some, but not for all. If someone values women, then they value there freedom of choice (we are not talking about the ones forced into prostitution) some women feel (and men) that its just a physical act between two people. Not tied to love, romance, religion or anything else. For those people, it is their choice.
Others, obviously feel differently. Also a choice. The bad things are always the ones pushed to the surface first. You can probably find quotes (tho I honestly didnt look nor plan on it) that say the opposite. You will also find those that felt it was fine and now dont, again choice. We empower people with the freedom to choose, even if we dont always agree with the choices they make. That is the true value of a person (and yes its easier said then done), do you value a person (in this case women) enough to make their own choices and decisions about it?
Anyway, just an opinion..
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