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 05/26/2011 03:19:51 PM · #226
Originally posted by K10DGuy:
What part of "I think it needs to be pursued MUCH further. Just not here.", exactly, escapes your grasp? lol.


;) The "just not here" part sorta slipped past the old retinas...

Well, feel free to PM me and let me know why I'm stupidly ridiculous....

Message edited by author 2011-05-26 15:21:13.
 05/26/2011 03:24:41 PM · #227
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
You do realize that the author, while being literal, is also being figurative and the lame, blind and deaf symbolize the sufferings and wrongs of this world. (I assume you knew that.)


The author sounds like a preacher and one who has little faith in humanity. To date, God hasn't cured a single disease or righted a single wrong. Humanity certainly has.

Message edited by author 2011-05-26 15:25:11.
 05/26/2011 04:17:10 PM · #228
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
You do realize that the author, while being literal, is also being figurative and the lame, blind and deaf symbolize the sufferings and wrongs of this world. (I assume you knew that.)


The author sounds like a preacher and one who has little faith in humanity. To date, God hasn't cured a single disease or righted a single wrong. Humanity certainly has.


Naturally, because God doesn't exist.
 05/26/2011 05:14:04 PM · #229
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
You do realize that the author, while being literal, is also being figurative and the lame, blind and deaf symbolize the sufferings and wrongs of this world. (I assume you knew that.)


The author sounds like a preacher and one who has little faith in humanity. To date, God hasn't cured a single disease or righted a single wrong. Humanity certainly has.


Naturally, because God doesn't exist.


That wasn't the reasoning. I was able to list off a number of human beings who were responsible for eliminating diseases or successfully leading civil rights movement, but was unable to come up with any that God took care of. Can you help me out there?
05/26/2011 05:24:11 PM · #230
Originally posted by yanko:

That wasn't the reasoning. I was able to list off a number of human beings who were responsible for eliminating diseases or successfully leading civil rights movement, but was unable to come up with any that God took care of. Can you help me out there?


Me, Me, Me... let me... the answer is ..."Oh yeah, well can you prove he didn't, eh... can you? :O)

Ray
 05/26/2011 05:50:24 PM · #231
That is a STUPIDLY RIDICULOUS idea, but we shouldn't talk about it here.
 05/26/2011 05:51:33 PM · #232
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
That is a STUPIDLY RIDICULOUS idea, but we shouldn't talk about it here.


aww. I touched a nerve.
 05/26/2011 06:13:37 PM · #233
Originally posted by K10DGuy:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
That is a STUPIDLY RIDICULOUS idea, but we shouldn't talk about it here.


aww. I touched a nerve.


You know, Ed, I actually went back and read your post more carefully and I think you either didn't quite get what the author meant or you were purposely talking on a tangent. Either way your post doesn't seem to speak to the quote.
 05/26/2011 06:36:35 PM · #234
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by K10DGuy:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
That is a STUPIDLY RIDICULOUS idea, but we shouldn't talk about it here.


aww. I touched a nerve.


You know, Ed, I actually went back and read your post more carefully and I think you either didn't quite get what the author meant or you were purposely talking on a tangent. Either way your post doesn't seem to speak to the quote.


I'll say it again, one last time. HOPE, in ANY form, does NOT NEED A SUPER POWERFUL OVER-BEING to exist. PERIOD. All it needs is the human brain, and enough imagination. It can take the FORM of god, or a god, or multiple gods. Or it can take the form of simple emotiong. Love, compassion, etc. Or it can take the form of deeds and intentions. Or all of the above. Or some of the above. Or none of the above.

So yes, the IDEA that "God" is needed is STUPIDLY RIDICULOUS. (note I say the IDEA, not the person with the idea). Believing in a god and having hope isn't stupidly ridiculous, but considering it to be the sole source IS.

Ok?

Ok.

I'm done. Ciao.
 05/26/2011 07:00:50 PM · #235
Well, that's obvious. I can hope the Red Sox win the world series this year. I can hope it doesn't rain tomorrow. We all have hope like that. The author was saying that Christianity has the Hope that one day the world will be restored and redeemed and that I will taste that day (whether in this life or the next). Without God, that hope seems beyond reach.

You are welcome to different Hope though, but of what strength and power? Trying to look objectively, it just seems that Hope is religion's strong suit rather than atheism's. Why wouldn't it be?
 05/26/2011 07:07:28 PM · #236
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Well, that's obvious. I can hope the Red Sox win the world series this year. I can hope it doesn't rain tomorrow. We all have hope like that. The author was saying that Christianity has the Hope that one day the world will be restored and redeemed and that I will taste that day (whether in this life or the next). Without God, that hope seems beyond reach.

You are welcome to different Hope though, but of what strength and power? Trying to look objectively, it just seems that Hope is religion's strong suit rather than atheism's. Why wouldn't it be?


Christianity is only one idea of what restoration and redemption is, that's all. Restoration and redemption isn't a concept that needs a god either. It might seem beyond reach for someone that believes a god is needed, but hardly to one that doesn't. It's just a different restoration and redemption. Heck, maybe the world isn't even in need of either. Not a concept you'd enjoy, I'm sure.
 05/26/2011 07:13:05 PM · #237
Originally posted by K10DGuy:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Well, that's obvious. I can hope the Red Sox win the world series this year. I can hope it doesn't rain tomorrow. We all have hope like that. The author was saying that Christianity has the Hope that one day the world will be restored and redeemed and that I will taste that day (whether in this life or the next). Without God, that hope seems beyond reach.

You are welcome to different Hope though, but of what strength and power? Trying to look objectively, it just seems that Hope is religion's strong suit rather than atheism's. Why wouldn't it be?


Christianity is only one idea of what restoration and redemption is, that's all. Restoration and redemption isn't a concept that needs a god either. It might seem beyond reach for someone that believes a god is needed, but hardly to one that doesn't. It's just a different restoration and redemption. Heck, maybe the world isn't even in need of either. Not a concept you'd enjoy, I'm sure.


Fair enough. Do you have such hope? Do you think you'll see that day? Does your definition of "restoration and redemption" help take you through the difficult times or the storms of life?
 05/26/2011 07:25:05 PM · #238
Personally, and this is just shooting the breeze here, atheism's calling card is Control. There is no God who might make demands on you. All phenomena are theoretically understandable (and thus theoretically controllable). Morality is what we make of it and thus is below us as a tool rather than above us making demands. Our own intellect is, as far as we know, the most powerful agent in the universe.

When you go out selling, I'd sell that sizzle rather than one of Hope and Redemption...
 05/26/2011 09:40:18 PM · #239
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by K10DGuy:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Well, that's obvious. I can hope the Red Sox win the world series this year. I can hope it doesn't rain tomorrow. We all have hope like that. The author was saying that Christianity has the Hope that one day the world will be restored and redeemed and that I will taste that day (whether in this life or the next). Without God, that hope seems beyond reach.

You are welcome to different Hope though, but of what strength and power? Trying to look objectively, it just seems that Hope is religion's strong suit rather than atheism's. Why wouldn't it be?


Christianity is only one idea of what restoration and redemption is, that's all. Restoration and redemption isn't a concept that needs a god either. It might seem beyond reach for someone that believes a god is needed, but hardly to one that doesn't. It's just a different restoration and redemption. Heck, maybe the world isn't even in need of either. Not a concept you'd enjoy, I'm sure.


Fair enough. Do you have such hope? Do you think you'll see that day? Does your definition of "restoration and redemption" help take you through the difficult times or the storms of life?


I see restoration and redemption enough every day, and I'm not self-deluded enough to believe in some hyper-reality of perfection. I'm surrounded by the surreal, the wonderful and the sublime. One only has to open their eyes to see it. We can focus on the imperfections, if we choose. We can focus on the negativity if we want. I'll have good days and bad days. I'll have good weeks and bad weeks. I'll have good years and bad years. In the end, however, there's enough to keep me living everywhere I turn. I don't need a super-being to see it.

Family, friends, activities I enjoy, the promise of laughter, the experience of heartache, the wondering what tomorrow will bring. These are all that one needs to get through the difficult times. The storms of life. Nothing more.
 05/26/2011 09:54:53 PM · #240
Originally posted by K10DGuy:
Family, friends, activities I enjoy, the promise of laughter, the experience of heartache, the wondering what tomorrow will bring. These are all that one needs to get through the difficult times. The storms of life. Nothing more.


That's nice. But that's not Hope. We don't hope in what we already have.

Meh, I edited it. It's not worth keeping on about.

Message edited by author 2011-05-26 23:07:58.
 05/27/2011 08:53:33 AM · #241
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Well, that's obvious. I can hope the Red Sox win the world series this year. I can hope it doesn't rain tomorrow. We all have hope like that. The author was saying that Christianity has the Hope that one day the world will be restored and redeemed and that I will taste that day (whether in this life or the next). Without God, that hope seems beyond reach.

You are welcome to different Hope though, but of what strength and power? Trying to look objectively, it just seems that Hope is religion's strong suit rather than atheism's. Why wouldn't it be?


Living like shit or accepting squalor and shitty existence in this world with the promise of it being better after you die. Thats not hope, its acceptance. atheism, for all its negativity, offers the hope of living for today.
 06/01/2011 12:21:26 PM · #242
Originally posted by blindjustice:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Well, that's obvious. I can hope the Red Sox win the world series this year. I can hope it doesn't rain tomorrow. We all have hope like that. The author was saying that Christianity has the Hope that one day the world will be restored and redeemed and that I will taste that day (whether in this life or the next). Without God, that hope seems beyond reach.

You are welcome to different Hope though, but of what strength and power? Trying to look objectively, it just seems that Hope is religion's strong suit rather than atheism's. Why wouldn't it be?


Living like shit or accepting squalor and shitty existence in this world with the promise of it being better after you die. Thats not hope, its acceptance. atheism, for all its negativity, offers the hope of living for today.


And that's why most homeless outreaches and hospice programs are run by atheists. Oh wait... they're not.

REAL Christianity isn't about pie in the sky when you die. It's about making a difference in THIS world. Some of us choose to live simply so that others may simply live.
 06/01/2011 01:45:49 PM · #243
Originally posted by ragamuffingirl:
Originally posted by blindjustice:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Well, that's obvious. I can hope the Red Sox win the world series this year. I can hope it doesn't rain tomorrow. We all have hope like that. The author was saying that Christianity has the Hope that one day the world will be restored and redeemed and that I will taste that day (whether in this life or the next). Without God, that hope seems beyond reach.

You are welcome to different Hope though, but of what strength and power? Trying to look objectively, it just seems that Hope is religion's strong suit rather than atheism's. Why wouldn't it be?


Living like shit or accepting squalor and shitty existence in this world with the promise of it being better after you die. Thats not hope, its acceptance. atheism, for all its negativity, offers the hope of living for today.


And that's why most homeless outreaches and hospice programs are run by atheists. Oh wait... they're not.

REAL Christianity isn't about pie in the sky when you die. It's about making a difference in THIS world. Some of us choose to live simply so that others may simply live.


Alternative Gifts International
Amnesty International
Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation
Doctors Without Borders
Freedom from Hunger
FINCA International
Heifer International
International Aids Vaccine Initiative
Kiva – Loans that change lives
Mercy Corps
Oxfam International
Partners In Health (PIH), Health Care for the Poor
PATH A catalyst for global health
Pathfinder International Changing Lives, Saving Lives
Planned Parenthood Federation of America, Inc.
Second Harvest
Southern Poverty Law Center
TechnoServe – Business Solutions to Rural Poverty
The Nature Conservancy
UNICEF
WHO World Health Organization

These are all non-religious charities. I am not unsophisticated, I think there are some good works done by Religion; but philosophically there are a bunch of people, at least that I know, that are more concerned with their own soul that that of "the least of my brothers"- Being brought up Catholic I was always proud of the argument that faith plus works were necessary for true realization of faith, not simply living in sin, binging on cocaine and hookers and violence, but "just believing" and your saved. No way on that one.
 06/01/2011 06:54:04 PM · #244
Originally posted by blindjustice:
Originally posted by ragamuffingirl:

And that's why most homeless outreaches and hospice programs are run by atheists. Oh wait... they're not.

REAL Christianity isn't about pie in the sky when you die. It's about making a difference in THIS world. Some of us choose to live simply so that others may simply live.


Alternative Gifts International
Amnesty International
Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation
Doctors Without Borders
Freedom from Hunger
FINCA International
Heifer International
International Aids Vaccine Initiative
Kiva – Loans that change lives
Mercy Corps
Oxfam International
Partners In Health (PIH), Health Care for the Poor
PATH A catalyst for global health
Pathfinder International Changing Lives, Saving Lives
Planned Parenthood Federation of America, Inc.
Second Harvest
Southern Poverty Law Center
TechnoServe – Business Solutions to Rural Poverty
The Nature Conservancy
UNICEF
WHO World Health Organization

These are all non-religious charities. I am not unsophisticated, I think there are some good works done by Religion; but philosophically there are a bunch of people, at least that I know, that are more concerned with their own soul that that of "the least of my brothers"- Being brought up Catholic I was always proud of the argument that faith plus works were necessary for true realization of faith, not simply living in sin, binging on cocaine and hookers and violence, but "just believing" and your saved. No way on that one.


They are all non-religious charities? Are you sure? I'm sure some of them have to say they're non-religious to get past international boarders, but they were founded by the religious.

Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation: Bill is Congregationalist and Melinda is Catholic

Freedom from Hunger was founded by Clifford Clinton. I can't find mention of his religion, but you read is biography and he sounds pretty religious to me.

Heifer International: Dan West the founder was a member of Church of the Brethren

Kiva – Loans that change lives
Matt Flannery is a Christian
Originally posted by Matt Flannery:
I grew up in a Christian family... my mother was a volunteer for World Vision, my sister worked for World Vision. I definitely had international development on my mind. I realized I was an entrepreneur and that was what I was best suited for. I tried to start several companies and failed and failed. It wasn't until I went to Africa with [co-founder and wife] Jessica. I loved talking with people in Kenya about their plans and dreams. That was a different vibe than I had when I was sponsoring children and had an idea of Africa as a desolate place. I found it vibrant and fun. I just wanted to convey that sense of hope and have people convey that to each other. That set me on fire. I thought wow, if people knew the country and started helping a business in Africa that would be so exciting. I told my family I'm going to start thousands of businesses in Africa. People are entrepreneurial. People have a lot in common if you can just break down the barriers between them. Neighbors are not just here, they are in Cambodia and Nicaragua. You are so connected to them spiritually and financially, but it just hasn't been evident.


Mercy Corps: I can't find the founder Dan O'Neil's religion but he is the recipient of the 2006 Mother Teresa Award.

Partners In Health (PIH), Health Care for the Poor
Father Fritz Lafontant, from the Haitian Episcopalian Church is the founding director of Zanmi Lasante (“Partners In Health” in Haitian Kreyol)

I'm sure I can find more if I dig deeper.


Message edited by author 2011-06-01 18:55:10.
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