sRGB vs Adobe RGB - DPChallenge Forums

Canon EF 70-300mm f/4.5-5.6 DO IS USM

04/07/2011 10:01:45 AM · #1

As I was reading my D700 manual (yes, I'm RTFM)... I came across this tidbit:

...praphrase...

"If you plan on printing your photos with little or no post-processing work, you should use (shoot) the sRGB colorspace" ...

"If you plan on editing in a photo editing program, you should use (shoot) Adobe RGB".

Can anyone enlighten me?

Thanks,

Kenny

Message edited by author 2011-04-07 10:02:13.

cpanaioti

Canon EOS-40D

04/07/2011 10:11:21 AM · #2

sRGB is what most labs expect an image to be in when sent to them.

AdobeRGB is a wider colourspace so is more forgiving during the editing process. It is best to edit in the widest colourspace possible while keeping in mind the final outcome. I tend to use ProPhotoRGB for editing as that is the Lightroom colourspace. If you shoot RAW I don't think the one chosen in camera is relevant (though I could be wrong and someone will enlighten us).

Message edited by author 2011-04-07 10:12:16.

bohemka

Sigma 12-24mm f/4.5-5.6 EX Aspherical DG HSM for Nikon

04/07/2011 10:14:16 AM · #3

Adobe RAW is 14-bit and will capture the highest amount of data on a D700.

Canon RF 24-70mm f/2.8 L IS

04/07/2011 10:17:49 AM · #4

Hmmm thanks...I found this too.

So Adobe if editing but convert back to sRGB after final edit for printing or internet viewing?

What if most of my ediiting is just sharpening, Levels and curves?

Think I'll stick with sRGB for now... !

KS

Message edited by author 2011-04-07 10:25:14.

kirbic

Canon EOS R5

04/07/2011 10:41:52 AM · #5

Originally posted by kenskid:

Think I'll stick with sRGB for now... !

KS

That's always my recommendation for folks who shoot JPEG and who don't have a solid understanding of color management. Color Management is a *complicated* subject. If you get to the point where you recognize that the sRGB space is limiting you, then you need to take the next steps. Not until then.
You will benefit *much* more from shooting RAW in which case the color space question does not apply. the is no such thing as color space in a RAW file. The color space of the resulting image is determined by your RAW conversion settings.

04/07/2011 10:46:54 AM · #6

My whole workflow is in Adobe RGB from my camera, calibrated monitors to my personal printer which can print in Adobe RGB color space as well. I only convert to sRGB for web files or outside printing.

My main monitor is an HP LP2475w which is a wide gamut IPS panel and can display 102 percent of the NTSC spec. If you don't have a wide gamut monitor which can display the Adobe RGB color space correctly then you should probably stick to shooting in sRGB.

Dave

04/07/2011 10:50:01 AM · #7

Originally posted by kenskid:

If you don't plan on doing post processing they are basically saying there is no need to shoot in anything other than sRGB because it saves you from having to go through the added step of converting from Adobe RGB to sRGB before posting to the web or printing.

04/07/2011 10:50:20 AM · #8

I hear ya....I'm telling the Adobe RGB to "step off" for now. (borrowed from Seinfeld)

Originally posted by DCNUTTER:

fotomann_forever

04/07/2011 12:01:36 PM · #9

If you shoot in RAW, it doesn't matter which you use... color space is chosen in RAW conversion. Like contrast, saturation, etc, color space only affects in-camera created JPGs.

04/07/2011 12:36:27 PM · #10

Originally posted by fotomann_forever:

If you shoot in RAW, it doesn't matter which you use... color space is chosen in RAW conversion. Like contrast, saturation, etc, color space only affects in-camera created JPGs.

Very true, but even in RAW people need to check their software workflow all the way through their processing because some programs like Lightroom default to ProPhoto RGB, others default to Adobe RGB etc. and for those less aware of how color spaces work this can create problems.

I know this is common because when I first got my wide gamut monitor I was noticing a LOT of photos on DPC (and of course the web in general) that aren't even tagged to with a color space. Browsers do not by default see untagged photos as sRGB as they should. In fact the only browser that can WITH A Manual Configuration change is Firefox. I had to type about:config into the address bar and manually change a setting so that browser would display untagged photos as sRGB. That's crazy. If I didn't do that all the photos that were untagged would be over saturated in the reds etc.

My point is regardless of what mode you shoot in you STILL have to be mindful of how color spaces work, and choose the appropriate one for your workflow and shooting style. Yes, RAW files are color space independent of camera settings, and can be set to anything during post, but that should be an educated decision based on the end use of the photo AND what your equipment is capable of reproducing properly. Much like Lab color there is no sense in shooting jpegs in Adobe RGB or using Adobe RGB as your RAW workflow if your monitors can't truly display those colors without dithering at the very least.

Dave

bohemka

Sigma 12-24mm f/4.5-5.6 EX Aspherical DG HSM for Nikon

04/07/2011 01:33:28 PM · #11

Originally posted by kirbic:

Originally posted by kenskid:

Think I'll stick with sRGB for now... !

KS

... the is no such thing as color space in a RAW file. The color space of the resulting image is determined by your RAW conversion settings.

I don't want to question this at all, as I bow to your technical mastery. However... the D700 has the ability to record RAW at 12 bit or Adobe RAW at 14 bit. I assumed it collected more information, though not necessarily color space. But there has to be some difference between the two.

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

04/07/2011 01:42:44 PM · #12

Originally posted by bohemka:

... the D700 has the ability to record RAW at 12 bit or Adobe RAW at 14 bit. I assumed it collected more information, though not necessarily color space. But there has to be some difference between the two.

There's a difference between 12-bit and 14-bit in the number of distinct colors can be recorded, with the latter able to distinguish/designate four times as many (those extra two bits ...).

LevT

OM System OM-1

Olympus 12-100mm f/4.0 M.Zuiko ED IS PRO

04/07/2011 01:57:50 PM · #13

Originally posted by DCNUTTER:

I know this is common because when I first got my wide gamut monitor I was noticing a LOT of photos on DPC (and of course the web in general) that aren't even tagged to with a color space. Browsers do not by default see untagged photos as sRGB as they should. In fact the only browser that can WITH A Manual Configuration change is Firefox. I had to type about:config into the address bar and manually change a setting so that browser would display untagged photos as sRGB. That's crazy. If I didn't do that all the photos that were untagged would be over saturated in the reds etc.

My point is regardless of what mode you shoot in you STILL have to be mindful of how color spaces work, and choose the appropriate one for your workflow and shooting style. Yes, RAW files are color space independent of camera settings, and can be set to anything during post, but that should be an educated decision based on the end use of the photo AND what your equipment is capable of reproducing properly. Much like Lab color there is no sense in shooting jpegs in Adobe RGB or using Adobe RGB as your RAW workflow if your monitors can't truly display those colors without dithering at the very least.

Dave

that's very interesting. since I use Firefox, I would love to do the same. Which variable did you change and what value should I type in, exactly?

also, do iMac and Macbook Pro display Adobe RGB without dithering. I should know this, but I don't :)

Bear_Music

Samsung Galaxy S24, S24+, S24 Ultra

Sony 24-70mm F4 Vario-Tessar T* FE OSS

04/07/2011 01:59:36 PM · #14

Originally posted by bohemka:

Originally posted by kirbic:

Originally posted by kenskid:

Think I'll stick with sRGB for now... !

KS

... the is no such thing as color space in a RAW file. The color space of the resulting image is determined by your RAW conversion settings.

I don't want to question this at all, as I bow to your technical mastery. However... the D700 has the ability to record RAW at 12 bit or Adobe RAW at 14 bit. I assumed it collected more information, though not necessarily color space. But there has to be some difference between the two.

The color space is an output thing. The 12 bits vs 14 bits is an input thing. The 14 bit RAW can hold much more detailed information, yes. The chosen color space determines how that information is translated for display.

R.

Canon RF 24-70mm f/2.8 L IS

04/07/2011 02:32:16 PM · #15

Originally posted by LevT:

Originally posted by DCNUTTER:
I know this is common because when I first got my wide gamut monitor I was noticing a LOT of photos on DPC (and of course the web in general) that aren't even tagged to with a color space. Browsers do not by default see untagged photos as sRGB as they should. In fact the only browser that can WITH A Manual Configuration change is Firefox. I had to type about:config into the address bar and manually change a setting so that browser would display untagged photos as sRGB. That's crazy. If I didn't do that all the photos that were untagged would be over saturated in the reds etc.

My point is regardless of what mode you shoot in you STILL have to be mindful of how color spaces work, and choose the appropriate one for your workflow and shooting style. Yes, RAW files are color space independent of camera settings, and can be set to anything during post, but that should be an educated decision based on the end use of the photo AND what your equipment is capable of reproducing properly. Much like Lab color there is no sense in shooting jpegs in Adobe RGB or using Adobe RGB as your RAW workflow if your monitors can't truly display those colors without dithering at the very least.

Dave

that's very interesting. since I use Firefox, I would love to do the same. Which variable did you change and what value should I type in, exactly?

also, do iMac and Macbook Pro display Adobe RGB without dithering. I should know this, but I don't :)

Lev, it's very easy to set. You can find the information here.

A whole article that explains the browser color management short comings can be found here.

It's important to note that unless you are using a wide gamut monitor you might not see a difference. I'm not a Mac user so I can't tell you with 100 percent accuracy whether or not the Macbook Pros etc. are wide gamut. They might very well be, and in fact if you notice in the links I've supplied...the screen shots are from a Mac. It won't hurt to set this regardless of your OS.

Any more questions I might be able to help with don't hesitate to message me or respond here. Hope this helps!

Dave

kirbic

Canon EOS R5

04/07/2011 02:38:51 PM · #16

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by bohemka:
[
I don't want to question this at all, as I bow to your technical mastery. However... the D700 has the ability to record RAW at 12 bit or Adobe RAW at 14 bit. I assumed it collected more information, though not necessarily color space. But there has to be some difference between the two.

The color space is an output thing. The 12 bits vs 14 bits is an input thing. The 14 bit RAW can hold much more detailed information, yes. The chosen color space determines how that information is translated for display.

R.

To expand on Robert's post, I think Nikon is giving you a choice of either a smaller RAW file (12-bit) or a more data-rich RAW file with the possibility of a larger color gamut (14-bit). Not that you couldn't take the 12-bit file and apply the Adobe RGB space in conversion anyhow. It just might not give any perceptible benefit. But heck, plenty of folks swore there was a benefit when pretty much all DSLRs had *only* 12-bit RAw. that wasn't so many years ago.

zeuszen

Canon EOS-1Ds Mark II

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

04/07/2011 02:57:11 PM · #17

Originally posted by DCNUTTER:

It's important to note that unless you are using a wide gamut monitor you might not see a difference. I'm not a Mac user so I can't tell you with 100 percent accuracy whether or not the Macbook Pros etc. are wide gamut. They might very well be, and in fact if you notice in the links I've supplied...the screen shots are from a Mac. It won't hurt to set this regardless of your OS...

MBPro's (and all laptops) as well as iMacs and Apple Displays are RGB monitors. Apple does not offer wide-gamut monitors.

04/08/2011 07:33:02 PM · #18

Originally posted by zeuszen:

Originally posted by DCNUTTER:
It's important to note that unless you are using a wide gamut monitor you might not see a difference. I'm not a Mac user so I can't tell you with 100 percent accuracy whether or not the Macbook Pros etc. are wide gamut. They might very well be, and in fact if you notice in the links I've supplied...the screen shots are from a Mac. It won't hurt to set this regardless of your OS...

MBPro's (and all laptops) as well as iMacs and Apple Displays are RGB monitors. Apple does not offer wide-gamut monitors.

Ok, that clears that up for Lev regarding Macbook built in displays or the Apple Cinema display. However, it's important to keep in mind that many Mac users also use other vendors for secondary displays either connected to their Macbooks/iMacs or as an alternative solution to the Apple Cinema when they have a Mac Pro workstion etc. So if those displays happen to be wide gamut they will still find this browser fix beneficial.

I know for a fact that the monitor I use (HP 2475w) which has every type of connection under the Sun including a display port connection is very commonly used by Mac users.

Dave

04/11/2011 10:08:44 PM · #19

Ok.. as I was printing my first photos from my D700 on a Canon MG5200 I did and saw the following.

I shot in sRGB
I use "let Photoshop manage colors"
....
......
.......however, when I choose printer profile as sRGB, I get major Gamut warnings...entire colors are tagged.
when I go to profile Adobe RGB, it clears up and prints fine. (I know the photo was shot in sRGB).

Also...when I choose two of the four MG5200 proflies, it shows very very little out of Gamut colors...but not as little as when Adobe RGB is chosen

What am I seeing?

Thanks.

04/12/2011 12:54:07 AM · #20

Ken, please provide a little more detail.

1)Did you use a RAW file or jpeg as your original
2)Did you export the files from a card into any other program such as Lightroom or Adobe Bridge before bring the file into Photoshop
3)Did you do any pre-processing in any other program such as Lightroom or Adobe Camera RAW.

4)On the bottom left portion of Adobe Photoshop there is a section that defaults to telling your your document sizes. Change that to show Document Profile by clicking on the arrow and selecting the show option. Does it say sRGB or something else.

5) Just because a file is in sRGB it doesn't mean it's tagged yet, and it should be. Even if it says sRGB as your document profile...click on the file menu - select edit - assign profile and select sRGB.

You have to make sure that if your photo goes through ANY other program that it will always be kept at the same color space throughout your editing. I keep mine all set to Adobe RGB until I need to outsource print (I can print to Adobe RGB at home) or I'm saving for the web.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, some of these programs default to ProPhoto RGB and that can mess a person up without realizing it. If you shoot in sRGB go through all your programs and make sure they import and export to sRGB colorspace so it never gets converted. Then when you are done in Photoshop always make sure you are still in the sRGB colorspace and assign the tag to the photo as I listed above. If you find your photo is in say Adobe RGB then you have to convert the photo to sRGB first and then do the tagging. Don't assume all that is done for you when you save a file...it's not.

The convert file command is also on the edit menu right below the assign profile option. You only have to change the second drop down menu...the convert to box, and leave the rest alone. Then assign the tag.

Post the answers to the questions above and try looking at some of these things I listed. Then reply back and we'll see where you stand.

Also, as it says in the print dialog menu....if you are letting Photoshop manage the color...make sure your color management is turned off in the print driver section.

Dave

Nikon AF Micro-Nikkor 60mm f2.8D

04/12/2011 08:32:04 PM · #21

Originally posted by DCNUTTER:

David Ey

Nikon D80

04/12/2011 08:46:02 PM · #22

convert to B/W....problem solved:)

04/12/2011 10:30:38 PM · #23

Originally posted by kenskid:

Wow...thanks nutter...I just looked at this post. I'll go check my Photoshop in about an hour...however, I do know that I shot in RAW, imported direct from camera via nikon transfer and then opened in Photoshop via Bridge....

...I'll check the rest...

KS

Originally posted by DCNUTTER:
Ken, please provide a little more detail.

1)Did you use a RAW file or jpeg as your original
2)Did you export the files from a card into any other program such as Lightroom or Adobe Bridge before bring the file into Photoshop
3)Did you do any pre-processing in any other program such as Lightroom or Adobe Camera RAW.

4)On the bottom left portion of Adobe Photoshop there is a section that defaults to telling your your document sizes. Change that to show Document Profile by clicking on the arrow and selecting the show option. Does it say sRGB or something else.

5) Just because a file is in sRGB it doesn't mean it's tagged yet, and it should be. Even if it says sRGB as your document profile...click on the file menu - select edit - assign profile and select sRGB.

You have to make sure that if your photo goes through ANY other program that it will always be kept at the same color space throughout your editing. I keep mine all set to Adobe RGB until I need to outsource print (I can print to Adobe RGB at home) or I'm saving for the web.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, some of these programs default to ProPhoto RGB and that can mess a person up without realizing it. If you shoot in sRGB go through all your programs and make sure they import and export to sRGB colorspace so it never gets converted. Then when you are done in Photoshop always make sure you are still in the sRGB colorspace and assign the tag to the photo as I listed above. If you find your photo is in say Adobe RGB then you have to convert the photo to sRGB first and then do the tagging. Don't assume all that is done for you when you save a file...it's not.

The convert file command is also on the edit menu right below the assign profile option. You only have to change the second drop down menu...the convert to box, and leave the rest alone. Then assign the tag.

Post the answers to the questions above and try looking at some of these things I listed. Then reply back and we'll see where you stand.

Also, as it says in the print dialog menu....if you are letting Photoshop manage the color...make sure your color management is turned off in the print driver section.

Dave

Ok, there is a problem. In your original post you said you shot in sRGB, and in this post in response to one of my questions you said you shot in RAW. The camera profile settings that control the color space you choose to shoot in, saturation, sharpness, contrast, lighting optimization, White Balance etc. ONLY get applied to the .jpeg the camera produces when you shoot in RAW + Jpeg. The RAW file is data directly from the sensor and is UNTOUCHED by any camera setting or adjustment. As the name is implies...it's raw data that needs to be manipulated by the photographer to produce the custom file or print. That includes setting the preferred color space manually.

There is a good chance that one of your steps along the way...especially Adobe Bridge could have been set by default to handle the RAW files as Adobe RGB or ProPhoto RGB. Since you shot the jpegs in sRGB you may have thought the RAW would be the same, but it's totally independent of the camera as I stated above. Again, go through your whole workflow settings and programs and make sure all your import and exports related to color space remain the same. In your case I recommend keeping everything at sRGB.

Once you are sure the photo in Photoshop is in the sRGB color space when you do the steps you mentioned in your first post regarding the gamut testing and also soft proofing you shouldn't see any problems. When you soft proof and check out of gamut colors make sure you select the sRGB color space profile under the custom section.

Dave