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11/10/2010 09:54:44 PM · #51 |
hahn states there is "upside down voting" as a fact, and defines it as being deliberately intended to penalize images that he defines as "quality" (no doubt, equated with images of the type he produces).
He also defines for us all what the vote scrubber does and does not do.
In reality, though, he simply asserts there is voting as he describes, asserts it is deliberately done to penalize his definition of quality, and asserts what the vote scrubber does (assertions & opinions = facts for hahn, apparently).
I believe, but do not know for certain, that the vote scrubber does more than just eliminate votes from someone who scores all ones, or all tens. I believe that, among other things, it also scrubs votes of anyone who simply does not vote on enough images in a specific challenge. I suspect there are other things it may do, and we know that the SC has used the vote data to catch actual cheaters (buddy voting, etc.).
At the root of hahn's suggestion is that voters who do not vote in the same manner as the majority, with the same or similar definitions of quality, have their votes scrubbed simply because having taste/style/genre preferences that align statistically to those of the masses is worthless at best, deliberate cheating at worst. There is no room in hahn's utopia for diversity of style, taste, opinion. One must vote in alignment with the majority in order to have one's vote "matter".
I, for one, want no part of his utopia, and am quite sure he won't miss me there. I wonder, sometimes, what color the sky is in his world, and does everyone wear identical grey coveralls....
I am relatively confident that the SC sees thru these assertions, realizes that such proposed scrubbing is ludicrous on the face of it, as it would be, in effect, an institutionalized strategic vote creation (though hahn would not see that way, favoring as it would, his challenge entry style).
I also suspect that one of the reasons we are not all fully informed about precisely what the vote scrubber does is simply to make it less easy for those few actual cheaters to game the system.
Any ploy, process, system to disenfranchise voters who simply have a pattern of not agreeing with majority vote a majority of the time is a flawed premise that really only serves the one who proposes it. Filtering out the votes you don't like may get you a higher score, but we all know that it is gaming the system, no matter what you call it to try and hide that fact.
+100 for K10DGuy
I suggest that if anyone can't stand getting low votes, then don't enter the challenges. After almost every challenge here, there is a thread complaining that one member's 10 is another member's 5, that some members give 10s in every challenge, while other members reserve 10 votes for images that they consider stand among the best images captured in the history of photography. With the wide disparity of meanings, definitions of what a 5 or a 10 even mean, to propose that an algorithm scrub out the lower votes on the popular images is absurd on so many levels that, were it anyone other than hahn proposing it, one would quite naturally assume it was a joke.
hahn demonstrated his openness to diversity here in this thread: if you don't enter challenges as regularly as he thinks you should, with images that he thinks are worthy, then your opinion & vote are without merit, as you are not even qualified to have them or express them. Another peek into his "utopia" I suppose...
But is hilarious irony to have him instruct us all on forms of intolerance and bigotry. Or, it would be hilarious, if not so very very sad....
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11/10/2010 10:01:02 PM · #52 |
| Let's make our votes public after voting is over. Problem solved in a flash! |
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11/10/2010 10:02:28 PM · #53 |
| This isn't about Hahn. Why are you trying to make it about Hahn? |
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11/10/2010 10:03:20 PM · #54 |
Originally posted by Jac:
Let's make our votes public after voting is over. Problem solved in a flash! |
Fair and solved. Done. |
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11/10/2010 10:04:26 PM · #55 |
Originally posted by Jac:
Let's make our votes public after voting is over. Problem solved in a flash! |
Hahaha. Yup. Witch hunting is good for everyone ;) |
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11/10/2010 10:06:45 PM · #56 |
Originally posted by chromeydome:
...+100 for K10DGuy
I suggest that if anyone can't stand getting low votes, then don't enter the challenges. ... |
Sigh!  K10Dguy last challenge entry 06/30/10. What was your point?
Since his last entry, i"ve entered 35 challenges. Not bragging, nor complaining. But, this is a photo challenge site. I think I've voted on 100% of each challenge since June 30, but it's possible I've missed a few. I celebrate excellent photography, whether it is MY STYLE, or not. Strategic voting exists. And, if a member is consistently voting with a very strong negative correlation to contest results, legitimate questions should be raised.
Message edited by author 2010-11-10 22:09:47. |
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11/10/2010 10:11:13 PM · #57 |
Originally posted by hahn23:
Originally posted by chromeydome:
...+100 for K10DGuy
I suggest that if anyone can't stand getting low votes, then don't enter the challenges. ... |
Sigh! K10Dguy last challenge entry 06/30/10. What was your point?
Since his last entry, i"ve entered 35 challenges. Not bragging, nor complaining. But, this is a photo challenge site. I think I've voted on 100% of each challenge since June 30, but it's possible I've missed a few. I celebrate excellent photography, whether it is MY STYLE, or not. Strategic voting exists. And, if a member is consistently voting with a very strong negative correlation to contest results, legitimate questions should be raised. |
Yes, like, "Why aren't we listening to this person more?"
Message edited by author 2010-11-10 22:11:30. |
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11/10/2010 10:12:29 PM · #58 |
oh, for heaven's sake, people
It's just simple math.
If you look at the small challenges there's going to be a larger discrepancy (on average) BECAUSE of the small number of entries.
Let's say you have 42 entries. About 1/2 the people say the vote on challenges, and half say they don't. So only 21 participants would vote on it. Does everyone vote? No. So let's say a little less than 1/2 didn't vote last week. So if 12 people voted, let's say that 10 of them voted an average of 6.5, one person voted a 1, and one person voted a 2. Those two low votes have now lowered the average participant vote to 5.67.
But for the non-participants -- 200 voted an average of 6.5 one additional person voted a 1, one person voted a 2. Those two low votes only change the 6.5 to a 6.45.
In small challenges, a few low participant votes will skew the average significantly. In larger challenges, you will not see that much of a difference.
You can't judge this by the tiny challenges.
Plus, I believe the original question was something to the effect of "do you think it's fair to vote on challenges in which you've entered a photograph." I think you're getting a tad off topic.
Message edited by author 2010-11-10 22:14:24.
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11/10/2010 10:17:50 PM · #59 |
Originally posted by K10DGuy:
Originally posted by Jac:
Let's make our votes public after voting is over. Problem solved in a flash! |
Hahaha. Yup. Witch hunting is good for everyone ;) |
It'll eliminate the need for one. |
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11/10/2010 10:20:54 PM · #60 |
Originally posted by Jac:
Originally posted by K10DGuy:
Originally posted by Jac:
Let's make our votes public after voting is over. Problem solved in a flash! |
Hahaha. Yup. Witch hunting is good for everyone ;) |
It'll eliminate the need for one. |
What planet are you on? It'll create them all over the place. If you already have people like Hahn proclaiming to be an expert on which votes are CORRECT for DPC, image what would happen if people's voting was in place for other people like him to get their hands on. It'd be utter chaos.
"You voted me a 3! I finished 5th place! WHAT THE HELL!?!?" "Sorry, I just didn't like it." "TROLL! CHEATER!"
Yah, good call.
Message edited by author 2010-11-10 22:21:22. |
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11/10/2010 10:22:35 PM · #61 |
To the topic at hand - if you believe you cannot vote fairly on a challenge you have entered, then please do not vote. Vote on the other challenge. Offer comments on the challenge you're in but not voting.
If you believe you CAN vote fairly (and not strategically give lower scores to shots you think might outscore yours, for instance) then by all means vote on the challenge. There is nothing to prohibit you from doing so. If voting on a challenge you entered was PROHIBITED, there would not be many votes in the Free Studies, now would there, since many enter those and non-paying members cannot vote.
Whether or not people "tactically" vote has been discussed many times. Some believe there are a ton of these voters, others don't think it is statistically signficant.
Pretty sure that for most challenges, my average vote given is higher than my vote received, putting me squarely in the bottom 50% of every challenge. I've actually finished above that from time to time, so I'm apparently over-voting my opponents. I'd best stop that.... :-) |
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11/10/2010 10:26:22 PM · #62 |
Originally posted by Jac:
Originally posted by K10DGuy:
Originally posted by Jac:
Let's make our votes public after voting is over. Problem solved in a flash! |
Hahaha. Yup. Witch hunting is good for everyone ;) |
It'll eliminate the need for one. |
Quite the contrary, actually. Witch hunts already occur based on the voting stats that are available. And when one member dares describe their voting algorithm in a forum, the vocal minority jump on and declare how un-right-minded it is. Even here, in this thread, a member who has not entered a challenge for 4 months is being called out as not qualified to vote or comment in voting threads.
Voting discussions and the scale/systems that the various members use all seem to end up kinda like driving on the freeway: Everyone who drives slower than you is a moron, everyone who drives faster is an idiot. :-)
More data on their exact speedometer readings would not really change that fundamental concept... :-) |
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11/10/2010 10:28:04 PM · #63 |
Originally posted by K10DGuy:
...If you already have people like Hahn proclaiming to be an expert on which votes are CORRECT for DPC, image what would happen if people's voting was in place for other people like him to get their hands on.... |
Where is your data on my votes? I enter challenges and I vote for photography excellence, regardless of whether it matches, or agrees with, my style, or not. Is that your approach? I'd guess not. But, we really have no idea, because you are a non-participant since June 30. Get on board and show us your best work. It might get a "10" from me.
Message edited by author 2010-11-10 22:29:59. |
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11/10/2010 10:29:11 PM · #64 |
Originally posted by hahn23:
Originally posted by K10DGuy:
...If you already have people like Hahn proclaiming to be an expert on which votes are CORRECT for DPC, image what would happen if people's voting was in place for other people like him to get their hands on.... |
Where is your data on my votes? I enter challenges and I vote for photography excellence, regardless of whether it matches, or agrees with, my style. Is that your approach? I'd guess not. But, we really have no idea, because you are a non-participant since June 30. Get on board and show us your best work. It might get a "10" from me. |
Do you make a career out of missing points completely? |
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11/10/2010 10:30:10 PM · #65 |
| OK -- that's enough personal sniping. Please talk about the original topic or stop posting. |
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11/10/2010 10:31:06 PM · #66 |
Originally posted by K10DGuy:
Originally posted by hahn23:
Originally posted by K10DGuy:
...If you already have people like Hahn proclaiming to be an expert on which votes are CORRECT for DPC, image what would happen if people's voting was in place for other people like him to get their hands on.... |
Where is your data on my votes? I enter challenges and I vote for photography excellence, regardless of whether it matches, or agrees with, my style. Is that your approach? I'd guess not. But, we really have no idea, because you are a non-participant since June 30. Get on board and show us your best work. It might get a "10" from me. |
Do you make a career out of missing points completely? |
Show us your best work in the challenges. That is my challenge to you! |
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11/10/2010 10:36:01 PM · #67 |
Originally posted by hahn23:
Originally posted by K10DGuy:
Originally posted by hahn23:
Originally posted by K10DGuy:
...If you already have people like Hahn proclaiming to be an expert on which votes are CORRECT for DPC, image what would happen if people's voting was in place for other people like him to get their hands on.... |
Where is your data on my votes? I enter challenges and I vote for photography excellence, regardless of whether it matches, or agrees with, my style. Is that your approach? I'd guess not. But, we really have no idea, because you are a non-participant since June 30. Get on board and show us your best work. It might get a "10" from me. |
Do you make a career out of missing points completely? |
Show us your best work in the challenges. That is my challenge to you! |
Honestly. Wow. Have a good life. lol. |
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11/10/2010 10:47:38 PM · #68 |
"You're arm's off!"
"No, it's not!" |
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11/11/2010 12:44:26 AM · #69 |
Originally posted by bohemka:
No offense. You've got 12 ribbons, yanko. And more, great photos.
So when you say:
"When I want to see work that is in the spirit of traditional photography I seek out the work being promoted or photographed by posthumous, ubique, zeuszen and the like. The last place I would go is the DPC front page."
You've filled that front page. |
I also have 169 entries, which makes me not K10DGuy so I must know what I'm talking about! ;) Now hold on a second. Are you saying my work is comparable to traditional photography? When I signed up one of the first things I did was argued with the purists like former DPCer agentkin over the use of photoshop and now I'm being called a traditional photographer? Say it ain't so!
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11/11/2010 01:39:09 AM · #70 |
To the OP, vote what you think is fair, and never let anyone tell you that your opinion is not valid. I have voted 184,278 times since I joined DPC and can find value in both the traditional and avant-garde models.
One thing for certain, I am much more receptive to some of the non-traditional approaches that seems in vogue of late, but have no problems in casting lower scores to images that do not appeal to me, regardless of which genre they represent.
Your vote is an expression of your opinion, and only you have control over that.
Ray |
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11/11/2010 04:51:37 AM · #71 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by bohemka:
No offense. You've got 12 ribbons, yanko. And more, great photos.
So when you say:
"When I want to see work that is in the spirit of traditional photography I seek out the work being promoted or photographed by posthumous, ubique, zeuszen and the like. The last place I would go is the DPC front page."
You've filled that front page. |
I also have 169 entries, which makes me not K10DGuy so I must know what I'm talking about! ;) Now hold on a second. Are you saying my work is comparable to traditional photography? When I signed up one of the first things I did was argued with the purists like former DPCer agentkin over the use of photoshop and now I'm being called a traditional photographer? Say it ain't so! |
No. I called you a good photographer. And so have others. Deal with it, dude. |
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11/11/2010 05:48:02 AM · #72 |
Originally posted by bohemka:
I do spend a lot of time looking at the challenges I've entered, but I don't vote. I think I'd be fair, but I don't have to worry about it.
There is, however, an easy explanation of this reverse bell curve, which can be found on every single entry. Some people can't handle voting in a competition in which they are entered.
My most recent:
Avg (commenters): 6.8889
Avg (participants): 5.5500
Avg (non-participants): 6.5043 |
I also do NOT vote in the challenges I enter. What bohemka is pointing out is the trend and thus the truth. Listen to yourself, "I know when a picture is better than mine.." and just there is the problem, YOU WEIGH THE OTHER PICS AGAINST YOURS AND NOT AGAINST ITSELF. I am sure, analyzing the votes where you/do not participate in WILL differ, and it will be lower than the non-participants' score. They are objective, you are not. |
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11/11/2010 09:30:16 AM · #73 |
Originally posted by docpjv:
Originally posted by bohemka:
I do spend a lot of time looking at the challenges I've entered, but I don't vote. I think I'd be fair, but I don't have to worry about it.
There is, however, an easy explanation of this reverse bell curve, which can be found on every single entry. Some people can't handle voting in a competition in which they are entered.
My most recent:
Avg (commenters): 6.8889
Avg (participants): 5.5500
Avg (non-participants): 6.5043 |
I also do NOT vote in the challenges I enter. What bohemka is pointing out is the trend and thus the truth. Listen to yourself, "I know when a picture is better than mine.." and just there is the problem, YOU WEIGH THE OTHER PICS AGAINST YOURS AND NOT AGAINST ITSELF. I am sure, analyzing the votes where you/do not participate in WILL differ, and it will be lower than the non-participants' score. They are objective, you are not. |
Actually comparing the participant average to the non-participant average is useless without know how many are in each group. A larger group will have an average which better represents the score. In a lot of cases, the non-participant group consists of very few voters so the average represented is irrelevant.
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11/11/2010 09:48:25 AM · #74 |
Everything is relative and all personal opinions are valid considering each person's point of view. And that extends to everything. What you might consider ethical, honest or even professional someone else can consider it unethical, dishonest and totally unprofessional.
I think the key is being honest with yourself, that would help you to be more objective. Analyze and evaluate a photograph for what it is, how it impacts you, how good you think it answers the challenge or topic requirements and how good the overall result is from your point of view based on whatever photography knowledge you might have or simply based on the message you get from it, your impression. All valid criteria.
Photography is very challenging, competitive, definitely, and trying to be better than the others is not a sin, as far as you keep it honest to yourself and your fellow photographers. |
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11/11/2010 10:26:18 AM · #75 |
@ OP: As you can see, there are many, many, MANY motivations behind voting. The fact that you are aware of your own possible bias demonstrates a genuine sensitivity, so kudos for that. Follow that conscious when you vote - and vote on each individual image, not as one compared to another.
Re all the controversy about voting procedure, etc. - we're talking social engineering in order to homogenize voting. And social engineering is NEVER a good idea. Anonymous voting is the hallmark of a free society in which also lives a handful of bad apples. |
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