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10/20/2010 01:04:20 PM · #176 |
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
I just can't believe how much effort you are putting into proving me wrong.
So, you proved me wrong. Fantastic. There are actually a few games out there that allow people to create something tangible. The fact is that few people play those games compared to the number of games that have no creativity. I don't know how many people play Second Life, but I'm sure it's not even close to the number of people that play games like WoW, Halo, Madden, Mario, Call of Duty, etc...
You may have proved me wrong based on what I was arguing, but I'm still not convinced that video games provide a good opportunity to create. Whatever can be created by a video game can be done much better and easier in other ways. So you can make your Second Life avatar into a statue? Why not take a sculpting class? So you can build some stuff with other people in Eve? Why not build a house for homeless people with a team of other creative people? There are superior ways of creating things that are more useful, educational, and fun.
If I take a sculpting class I learn more social skills, develop stronger friendships, learn more useful life skills, and probably have a lot more fun than I would sitting in front of a computer playing Second Life and making friends through a headset.
I understand that you've invested a lot of your life in video games Mousie, and I don't judge you for that. But I know that when you invest so heavily in something, you are willing to stretch pretty far to legitimize that which you've invested in. You won the argument, so kudos to you, but in my mind you're stretching pretty far. |
You're trying so hard to distance reality, none of what I've said is even a remote stretch, if you'd only go look for yourself...
68,000 people are usually on Second Life... concurrently. AT THE SAME TIME.
But you say it's just a few.
Then you compare it to the massive user base of WoW, as if I hadn't noted that MANY games can be used for producing real world objects... this took two seconds:
//www.figureprints.com/Help/FAQ.aspx
//www.gamersglobal.com/news/429
So now it's not just SL... it's the millions of WoW users that have this ability.
"Whatever can be created by a video game can be done much better and easier in other ways."
Opinion. And? What does that have to do with creativity? Plenty of artist choose deliberately limiting tools.
"There are superior ways of creating things that are more useful, educational, and fun."
That is your opinion. And, again, has nothing to do with actual creativity.
While I love using myself an a counterexample, the following is not about tooting my own horn, it's about highlighting the problems in your assumptions.
Look dude, you're talking to a guy with two art degrees. I am no stranger to sculpture classes. I've done work in metal, plastics, and clay. An interest in any one of these does not preclude one's interest in video games, and it's frankly insulting the way you've chosen to rank how you think I spend my free time, particularly while you're overemphasizing my interest in games. I've done both these things, so I should be allowed to decide which is more fun for me. I should know about my own social and educational benefits. I speak from years of experience in each... I can actually compare them! :)
You're repeatedly ignoring facts, such as claiming not to know about any bleed over into the real world after I'd already listed an entire class of it, THEN focusing on the one game I chose to use an an example, when the same techniques even apply to your own, incorrect, counter-example! In fact any game that used OpenGL triangle meshes for 3D can do this! This was explained in the first link I posted!
Regarding my own personal investment (why is this even on the table?) I haven't actually been in the game industry for yen years. I don't even play video games all that often! There is simply no secret agenda of self-justification here for you to use to dismiss my arguments, as you keep trying to do. Besides, even if I were biased in the way you suggest, that should be irrelevant to the info I've been posting.
In the last year I've played Alien Swarm six times, and Sins of a Solar Empire thrice. The year before that? Two intense weeks of Fallout (rocked!), Sins ten times, and Crysis: Warhead for one evening. The year before that I played four nights of Crysis. The Cryses are way too short! You get the point. I am a casual gamer.
Let's compare that to social board gaming: In just the last year I've played Power Grid, Ticket To Ride, Carcasonne (many version), Puerto Rico, more than I can count, Ingenious prolly around 50 times... Betrayal at House On The Hill, Niagra, Risk 2201, Dominoes, Tigris & Euphrates a handful of times each. With the same people I play video games with. I guess all that social video gaming DOES pay off in the real world, despite your sad 'friends through a headset' snipe.
So finally: back to Second Life.
The only logical conclusion of your position is that 3D modeling is not as creative or valuable as 'real' art like sculpture. Do you really mean this?
But feel free to keep moving the goalposts...
First it's nothing outside of a gamer's profile
Then it's nothing tangible
Then it's nothing that's easier to do in another media
Then it's nothing that doesn't have some nebulous 'worth' that pleases you personally
Then it's not housing the homeless, apparently
What's next? |
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10/20/2010 01:07:31 PM · #177 |
The saddest part of this thread for me is the pervasive notion that we have fallen from grace. That there was a time, back in the garden, back in the old west, back on the commune, when we were a better society, when we were better men. The search for the agency of that fall, be it video games, or the fruit of knowledge, takes up a great deal of effort and time, and bears little fruit.
From what I have read of history the human condition has been remarkably steady for the last three thousand years. Buck up people, its going to be O.K., the signs of the end of the world have always been there.
âNo society has been able to abolish human sadness, no political system can deliver us from the pain of living, from our fear of death, our thirst for the absolute. It is the human condition that directs the social condition, not vice versa.â
Eugene Ionesco
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10/20/2010 01:38:07 PM · #178 |
Hey everybody! Have no fear! Things have always sucked!
You ought to be a speech writer Brennan. :D |
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10/20/2010 01:40:26 PM · #179 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
The saddest part of this thread for me is the pervasive notion that we have fallen from grace. That there was a time, back in the garden, back in the old west, back on the commune, when we were a better society, when we were better men. The search for the agency of that fall, be it video games, or the fruit of knowledge, takes up a great deal of effort and time, and bears little fruit.
From what I have read of history the human condition has been remarkably steady for the last three thousand years. Buck up people, its going to be O.K., the signs of the end of the world have always been there.
âNo society has been able to abolish human sadness, no political system can deliver us from the pain of living, from our fear of death, our thirst for the absolute. It is the human condition that directs the social condition, not vice versa.â
Eugene Ionesco |
There it is in a nutshell. But  DrAchoo's silly accusation has made for a very popular and entertaining thread! |
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10/20/2010 01:41:36 PM · #180 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Hey everybody! Have no fear! Things have always sucked!
You ought to be a speech writer Brennan. :D |
It think it's very slick. :-D |
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10/20/2010 01:45:31 PM · #181 |
Originally posted by clive_patric_nolan:
What's that got to do with anything? I fail to see where in this thread Yanko was deriding Christianity and praising Islam. |
I didn't see it either. So I was curious whether Yanko was one who practiced
such. I see it so much in popular culture lately I wondered whether it existed here in DPC Rant Land. At least here in DPC Rant Land I can have faith in the Atheists. No religion is satisfactory to them, even Atheism.
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10/20/2010 01:46:40 PM · #182 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Is there a lower ring of hell that Rant threads can devolve to? ;)
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You usually occupy it. If you'd like a map for the way out I can draw one for you. :) |
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10/20/2010 01:59:19 PM · #183 |
Originally posted by Strikeslip:
There it is in a nutshell. But DrAchoo's silly accusation has made for a very popular and entertaining thread! |
Don't make me frag you with my Spartan Laser... |
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10/20/2010 02:08:54 PM · #184 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Once the genie is out of the bottle, I'm not sure it can be put back in. Cultures have a limited shelf life and ours won't last forever. Perhaps this is the root of our undoing and there is nothing we can do about it. How's that for a happy answer? |
I guess this is where I have the issue.
What about those of us who really don't think the End of Days is here?
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10/20/2010 02:16:37 PM · #185 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Once the genie is out of the bottle, I'm not sure it can be put back in. Cultures have a limited shelf life and ours won't last forever. Perhaps this is the root of our undoing and there is nothing we can do about it. How's that for a happy answer? |
I guess this is where I have the issue.
What about those of us who really don't think the End of Days is here? |
Well, obviously I don't have a crystal ball. I'm not even saying our culture is going to end in our lifetimes, but I can guaratee you it will at some point and be replaced. It's the way things are. |
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10/20/2010 02:19:18 PM · #186 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Once the genie is out of the bottle, I'm not sure it can be put back in. Cultures have a limited shelf life and ours won't last forever. Perhaps this is the root of our undoing and there is nothing we can do about it. How's that for a happy answer? |
I guess this is where I have the issue.
What about those of us who really don't think the End of Days is here? |
Well, obviously I don't have a crystal ball. I'm not even saying our culture is going to end in our lifetimes, but I can guaratee you it will at some point and be replaced. It's the way things are. |
I agree with this too. I actually HOPE it happens in my lifetime. I'm kind of interested to see what the next culture will be like. Hopefully it'll have less of a reliance on myth and supernatural.
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10/20/2010 02:45:41 PM · #187 |
Originally posted by K10DGuy:
I agree with this too. I actually HOPE it happens in my lifetime. I'm kind of interested to see what the next culture will be like. Hopefully it'll have less of a reliance on myth and supernatural. |
Well, since Jesus will be back by then, I guess it won't be myth... :P |
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10/20/2010 02:50:45 PM · #188 |
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
If I take a sculpting class I learn more social skills, develop stronger friendships, learn more useful life skills, and probably have a lot more fun than I would sitting in front of a computer playing Second Life and making friends through a headset. |
You DO realize that you continued participation in DPC, and in these rant threads, is not really qualitatively different than participation in Second Life, to name one example? If you try to argue that we are "real" people debating, and Second Life doesn't involve "real people", you're gonna slide down that slippery slope so fast it'll scorch your behind.
The very existence of DPC, a "virtual community" that sometimes crosses over into "reality" as community members interact with, and occasionally physically hook up with, each other proves the case that "virtual reality" is as much real as it is virtual, at the core level.
R. |
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10/20/2010 02:51:51 PM · #189 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by K10DGuy:
I agree with this too. I actually HOPE it happens in my lifetime. I'm kind of interested to see what the next culture will be like. Hopefully it'll have less of a reliance on myth and supernatural. |
Well, since Jesus will be back by then, I guess it won't be myth... :P |
I'm looking forward to Jesus getting back to see what sort of zombie destroying weaponry he'll be packing. I figure he'll look like Snake Plisskin.
Although, saying that, the Jesus Christ myth is an early zombie tale itself so perhaps he won't be on our side after all. Perhaps 'meek' is a mistranslation of 'brain eating undead' |
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10/20/2010 02:57:07 PM · #190 |
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10/20/2010 03:02:24 PM · #191 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
You DO realize that you continued participation in DPC, and in these rant threads, is not really qualitatively different than participation in Second Life, to name one example? If you try to argue that we are "real" people debating, and Second Life doesn't involve "real people", you're gonna slide down that slippery slope so fast it'll scorch your behind.
R. |
I never said that Second Life doesn't involve real people. My point was that you will develop more social skills when you interact with people in person that you will interacting in some virtual world. |
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10/20/2010 03:03:40 PM · #192 |
| Hey Tycho, I read a paper published by Craig Ferguson and I have to say I'm a bit worried on the surface. He seems to basically consider himself to be the only voice of reason in a whole field of study. ALL violence and video games studies are flawed. Nobody is being rigorous or ethical or rational. Only him. There are times where the lone voice in the wilderness is calling out the truth, but there are other times where he's just a crazy dude. I'm not sure what to make of Ferguson. I'm about to reread the Pediatrics study. |
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10/20/2010 03:09:55 PM · #193 |
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
You DO realize that you continued participation in DPC, and in these rant threads, is not really qualitatively different than participation in Second Life, to name one example? If you try to argue that we are "real" people debating, and Second Life doesn't involve "real people", you're gonna slide down that slippery slope so fast it'll scorch your behind.
R. |
I never said that Second Life doesn't involve real people. My point was that you will develop more social skills when you interact with people in person that you will interacting in some virtual world. |
Socializing with real people may be getting old fashioned. Last night I wasin the room as my 12yo daughter was chatting on the phone with one friend, and instant messaging online with two others, as well as playing an online game with her phone friend... all at the same time.
I get confused trying to chew gum & walk at the same time.
Message edited by author 2010-10-20 15:17:35. |
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10/20/2010 03:13:35 PM · #194 |
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
But I know that when you invest so heavily in something, you are willing to stretch pretty far to legitimize that which you've invested in. |
Wow... hard to believe that's only the second most ironic thing I've read today. |
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10/20/2010 03:14:13 PM · #195 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Once the genie is out of the bottle, I'm not sure it can be put back in. Cultures have a limited shelf life and ours won't last forever. Perhaps this is the root of our undoing and there is nothing we can do about it. How's that for a happy answer? |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
I guess this is where I have the issue.
What about those of us who really don't think the End of Days is here? |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Well, obviously I don't have a crystal ball. I'm not even saying our culture is going to end in our lifetimes, but I can guaratee you it will at some point and be replaced. It's the way things are. |
I guess I should have been more specific......8~)
With all the bad things out there like global warming, tsunamis, wars, and the economy, I just have a hard time attaching much signifigance to a small percentage of America's youth who play too many video games. I don't see that as any kind of sign that our society is diminished, and your whole contention that this is time wasted is strictly your opinion. Coupling in your self-imposed views on social duty, and claiming that others are lacking certainly isn't cause for alarm from the rest of us.
Just out of curiosity, do you have any first hand knowledge in your own social circle of an individual where video games were a specific provocateur, of outright cause of serious angst and/or bad behaviors?
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10/20/2010 03:29:13 PM · #196 |
| Jeb, you've been reading that I consider the video games to be the symptom not the disease, right? That probably curtails the discussion right there. |
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10/20/2010 04:10:37 PM · #197 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Jeb, you've been reading that I consider the video games to be the symptom not the disease, right? That probably curtails the discussion right there. |
I've been friends with a group of about 40 people who were all brought together by a violent video game. Friends online, as well as in the physical world. They're all a bunch of non-violent, networking geeks and science nerds. Only three of us would have survived a real football or hockey game in a real-life aggressive manner.
Real life as I live it just doesn't jive with your entertaining claims.
Technology marches on, and games and tastes change. Older generations have always held youth in disdain.
DrAchoo, you're just getting old & grumpy.
Message edited by author 2010-10-20 16:25:07. |
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10/20/2010 04:15:24 PM · #198 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
But I know that when you invest so heavily in something, you are willing to stretch pretty far to legitimize that which you've invested in. |
Wow... hard to believe that's only the second most ironic thing I've read today. |
I'm really trying to stick to the ideas being debated here, haha... you're not helping. :)
Message edited by author 2010-10-20 16:19:02. |
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10/20/2010 04:17:51 PM · #199 |
I realize I never answered johnnyphoto's core question... why am I doing this?
Simple!
He's pissing on the creativity of millions of people.
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10/20/2010 04:36:22 PM · #200 |
Originally posted by Strikeslip:
DrAchoo, you're just getting old & grumpy. |
Well, that just goes without saying... |
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