Canon 10D or Rebel? - DPChallenge Forums

Canon EF 70-300mm f/4.5-5.6 DO IS USM

07/09/2004 12:35:42 PM · #76

Originally posted by Gordon:

Yeah, I think what I'm really wanting is a camera with a decent AF. Unfortunately that comes at a price and only in the pro level bodies at the moment. I've tried a 10D and have various friends who use one and is better than the D60 but has similar issues, that are just totally different when compared to a 1D or 1DII.

I've been stressing the limits of the D60 AF a lot recently (bike riders at 30mph, about 4 meters from the camera, that sort of thing) Even with a long lock on time and good tracking - it just doesn't keep up. I'm not sure a 1D would actually do much better in that sort of environment though.

Cars traveling parallel to the film plane, at quite a distance is a very different situation (like the examples shown for the E1) - the D60 handles that stuff pretty easily - as the focus distance isn't changing much at all.

I think the best thing to do is see if you can get to a store that will rent you an E-1 and see for yourself. Take one out for a test drive so to speak. I'm not saying it is right for you but don't write it off without at least trying one. I only showed you a few of my own shots as samples but E-1 users at the forum I pointed to in the other post can show you more of what you are looking for.

Tom

menardmam

Canon EOS-30D

07/09/2004 12:38:57 PM · #77

I have both

Simple answer... get the 300 and get the better lens you could paid for... in fact, pay more for the lens that for the box that hold it, this way you will see quality and detail you never ever get-see with cheep plastic 100$ lens...

My choice
300D (1300$) with 18-55 lens (cheep)
70-300 DO IS USM (1600$)
24-70 2.8 L (1800$)
sigma dg 500 flash (400$)
3 400w flash kit with softbox and umbrella and stand (3500$)
all prices in canadian $

The lens make all the differences in the world.... buy good lens, anyway the 10-15-20-25-100 megapixel body will come to retail one day, you will change you 6megapixel rebel in 2-3 years.... not your good lens....

just my opinion

ciao

GoldBerry

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Canon EF 50mm f/1.4 USM

07/09/2004 12:40:08 PM · #78

10D.

Unless you can afford the 1D or Mark 11 :-)

dwoolridge

07/09/2004 01:35:32 PM · #79

Originally posted by dwoolridge:

I forgot to mention the E-1 records 14-bit data, compared with the Canon's which record 12-bit. I'm not sure about the Nikon.

DPReview says the E-1 records 12-bit data (but the E-1's RAW file sizes conflict with that), the E-1's spec sheet says 12-bit, but the E-1 FAQ says 14-bit.

So, which is it?

Oh, the E-1 has some fairly nice built-in noise reduction, but you lose burst shooting when it's on.

W.R.Miller

Canon EOS-50D

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Canon

07/09/2004 01:53:43 PM · #80

Originally posted by GoldBerry:

10D.

Unless you can afford the 1D or Mark 11 :-)

Why? Back up your answer.

07/09/2004 02:21:11 PM · #81

Originally posted by TomH1000:

Taking a quick glance through the specs, it looks roughly similar to the D60 in terms of features, with a much more limited range of lenses. I don't see anything that would really entice me to switch to a roughly similar camera system to the one I own. Some of the main issues I have with the D60 is replicated on that camera - 3 focus points, that when in portrait mode end up giving you a center only focus option. Even my film rebel does better than that. Though as the AF doesn't really work well for particularly active subjects, it isn't so much of an issue. Also I guess with the 4/3rds system you are stuck with digital bodies only ?

The resolution seems quite low too - is it a 5Mp camera ? I find for a lot of my needs, that the 6Mp D60 isn't even enough. There are some things that are better, like the lenses are going to be cheaper/ lighter for equivalent performance when they get a good selection in place and USB 2 might be good, but I use a card reader anyway. I don't seem much point making a lateral shift to something with fewer options.

Message edited by author 2004-07-09 15:14:21.

07/09/2004 03:47:03 PM · #82

Originally posted by Gordon:

Originally posted by TomH1000:

I think the best thing to do is see if you can get to a store that will rent you an E-1 and see for yourself. Take one out for a test drive so to speak. I'm not saying it is right for you but don't write it off without at least trying one. I only showed you a few of my own shots as samples but E-1 users at the forum I pointed to in the other post can show you more of what you are looking for.

Tom

Taking a quick glance through the specs, it looks roughly similar to the D60 in terms of features, with a much more limited range of lenses. I don't see anything that would really entice me to switch to a roughly similar camera system to the one I own. Some of the main issues I have with the D60 is replicated on that camera - 3 focus points, that when in portrait mode end up giving you a center only focus option. Even my film rebel does better than that. Though as the AF doesn't really work well for particularly active subjects, it isn't so much of an issue. Also I guess with the 4/3rds system you are stuck with digital bodies only ?

The resolution seems quite low too - is it a 5Mp camera ? I find for a lot of my needs, that the 6Mp D60 isn't even enough. There are some things that are better, like the lenses are going to be cheaper/ lighter for equivalent performance when they get a good selection in place and USB 2 might be good, but I use a card reader anyway. I don't seem much point making a lateral shift to something with fewer options.

Well the specs don't tell you how it feels in your hands and how easy it is to get around the many options this camera has to offer and as far as resolution how much do you need? What kind of prints are you making? The 1D is only a 4mp and the pros don't seem to mind that. Well anyway I guess your mind is made up but I leave you all with this thread. Look it over at least. It is some interesting reading if nothing else.
//forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1022&message=9409493

Tom

07/09/2004 03:50:37 PM · #83

Originally posted by TomH1000:

Print size ? Up to about 40x60 if possible. I'm investigating a digital back for this sort of work. Certainly 20x30 in a lot of cases. I can just about stretch a D60 file to that resolution, for particularly fine captures.

Message edited by author 2004-07-09 15:54:26.

07/09/2004 05:59:48 PM · #84

Originally posted by Gordon:

Originally posted by TomH1000:

Well the specs don't tell you how it feels in your hands and how easy it is to get around the many options this camera has to offer and as far as resolution how much do you need? What kind of prints are you making? The 1D is only a 4mp and the pros don't seem to mind that. Well anyway I guess your mind is made up but I leave you all with this thread. Look it over at least. It is some interesting reading if nothing else.
//forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1022&message=9409493

Tom

Print size ? Up to about 40x60 if possible. I'm investigating a digital back for this sort of work. Certainly 20x30 in a lot of cases. I can just about stretch a D60 file to that resolution, for particularly fine captures.

Hum I see. That is large. I would think if you want them to look tack sharp you would need at least 14mp. I guess it all depends on what your viewing perspective is. Right up close? From across the room? All this makes a difference and up close not even 35mm can offer this which is about 10mp equiv. The largest I print is 13 x 19 which is very sharp up close. With the right upsizing in photoshop say steps of maybe 10% I'm sure I could go much higher. And you want to print sports events at this level? Here is more interesting reading from a former 10D user.

//forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1022&message=9470254

Tom

Message edited by author 2004-07-09 18:06:54.

Canon EF 70-200mm f/4.0L USM

07/09/2004 06:12:11 PM · #85

I didn't say I wanted to print sports at that level - but I do certainly print images from my camera at 20x30 and have a desire and demand to print them at 40x60. I'm actually looking at using a 22Mp camera for some of that, but for most of it my current 6Mp camera is adequate - 5Mp wouldn't be.

However, I have a D60 - I'm not going to buy a lower resolution camera with the same AF problems that I have with my current camera (mainly limited AF points), when it costs more than one with higher resolution and more lens choices - why would that make sense ? I wouldn't buy a 10D to replace the D60 either, come to that. Any marginal difference in the performance isn't worth the $1500+ cost of changing.

Also - like I mentioned - I shoot film as well. Buying another digital only system just doesn't make sense for me.

Message edited by author 2004-07-09 18:20:08.

paganini

Canon EOS-1D Mark II

07/09/2004 07:19:22 PM · #86

Originally posted by TomH1000:

Originally posted by Gordon:
Yeah, I think what I'm really wanting is a camera with a decent AF. Unfortunately that comes at a price and only in the pro level bodies at the moment. I've tried a 10D and have various friends who use one and is better than the D60 but has similar issues, that are just totally different when compared to a 1D or 1DII.

I've been stressing the limits of the D60 AF a lot recently (bike riders at 30mph, about 4 meters from the camera, that sort of thing) Even with a long lock on time and good tracking - it just doesn't keep up. I'm not sure a 1D would actually do much better in that sort of environment though.

Cars traveling parallel to the film plane, at quite a distance is a very different situation (like the examples shown for the E1) - the D60 handles that stuff pretty easily - as the focus distance isn't changing much at all.

I think the best thing to do is see if you can get to a store that will rent you an E-1 and see for yourself. Take one out for a test drive so to speak. I'm not saying it is right for you but don't write it off without at least trying one. I only showed you a few of my own shots as samples but E-1 users at the forum I pointed to in the other post can show you more of what you are looking for.

Tom

paganini

Canon EOS-1D Mark II

Canon EF 70-200mm f/4.0L USM

07/09/2004 07:20:31 PM · #87

Are you ever gonna get your LEAF? :)

Originally posted by Gordon:

graphicfunk

Canon EOS-20D

Canon EF 28-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS USM

07/09/2004 07:24:40 PM · #88

No dilemma: if you can afford it go for the 10D. It is a hell of a camera.

Sigma 24-70mm f/2.8 EX Aspherical DF for Canon

07/09/2004 08:30:38 PM · #89

Originally posted by paganini:

Are you ever gonna get your LEAF? :)

Only if I don't have to pay for it ;)

GoldBerry

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Canon EF 50mm f/1.4 USM

07/09/2004 09:23:58 PM · #90

Originally posted by wackybill:

Originally posted by GoldBerry:
10D.

Unless you can afford the 1D or Mark 11 :-)

Why? Back up your answer.

*salutes* Yes sir!

Save yourself the trouble of upgrading later if you want to start making some coin. If it's just for the love of photography then the 300D is good but you'll need to spend a few hundred more on a better lens.

magnetic9999

Canon EOS-20D

07/09/2004 09:37:49 PM · #91

there are plenty of ways of making coin with a digital camera. i make plenty of coin from my 'lowly' 10D.

considering that the 1d mk II only just recently came into existence, and photogs were earning their bread long before that, that tells me that you don't need that specific camera to be economically viable ;)

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L USM

07/10/2004 05:11:15 AM · #92

Originally posted by paganini:

Ahhh, stop selling that E1 here :)

IMHO Olympus E1 is too little too late. 4/3rd system isn't worth it, the 300mm glass cost more than Canon's 600 mm glass! The only advantage is that it is smaller.

Besides, I like the 4x6 aspect ratio. With E1 i have to crop on every freaking photo to print at 4x6.

The only thing for me that makes sense is the Canon 1D mark II. Hopefullythere would be a EOS 3 equivalent out this fall, then i'd jump on it. Otherwise my 10D is as good as any other camera.

Originally posted by TomH1000:

Originally posted by Gordon:
Yeah, I think what I'm really wanting is a camera with a decent AF. Unfortunately that comes at a price and only in the pro level bodies at the moment. I've tried a 10D and have various friends who use one and is better than the D60 but has similar issues, that are just totally different when compared to a 1D or 1DII.

I've been stressing the limits of the D60 AF a lot recently (bike riders at 30mph, about 4 meters from the camera, that sort of thing) Even with a long lock on time and good tracking - it just doesn't keep up. I'm not sure a 1D would actually do much better in that sort of environment though.

Cars traveling parallel to the film plane, at quite a distance is a very different situation (like the examples shown for the E1) - the D60 handles that stuff pretty easily - as the focus distance isn't changing much at all.

I think the best thing to do is see if you can get to a store that will rent you an E-1 and see for yourself. Take one out for a test drive so to speak. I'm not saying it is right for you but don't write it off without at least trying one. I only showed you a few of my own shots as samples but E-1 users at the forum I pointed to in the other post can show you more of what you are looking for.

Tom

This is the type of ignorance I am talking about. Have you ever even tried an E-1? I bet not. I have tried both. The 300mm lens is 600 35mm equiv. Is your 600mm an f2.8 lens? Are your lenses designed to fit your camera? No they are designed for 35mm not the size of your lack of dynamic range CMOS sensor. I can show you a lot of people that sold all there Canon gear for the E-1. Can you show me any people that sold there E-1 for Canon? I think not. You want to talk about build quality? Don't get cought in the rain with your 10D. How about dust on your sensor? No problems with the E-1. The 10D has back focus problems, metering problems, Flash problems. These are all problems I ahve read about in Canon forums. Un like you I'm sure, I read about both systems. E-1 has no issues with any of these problems If you think the pros are not looking at this camera then you are not only blind but crazy also. Ever hear of Eli Reed? He was the runner-up for the Pultizer and guess what he shoots with. Yep, the E-1. You can blindly think what you want about the E-1 and thats fine with me. It is your lose not mine. I did my homework. I have used both camera and found the E-1 to be lightyears ahead of the 10D. The E-1 is new and already more and more pros are looking at the E system. Lets just see where we stand a year from now. Now I don't want you to get me wrong. I don't think the 10D is a bad camera. I just think the E-1 is much better and I would put the E-1 up against the 10D anytime any place. Oh yea, one last thing. As far as cropping goes. I prefer 8 x 10 which the 4/3 is much closer to.

Tom

Message edited by author 2004-07-10 05:14:12.

PaulMdx

Canon EOS-1D

07/10/2004 05:51:04 AM · #93

Originally posted by TomH1000:

I can show you a lot of people that sold all there Canon gear for the E-1. Can you show me any people that sold there E-1 for Canon? I think not.

The number of people is irrelevent, because there's a gigantically larger number of Canon users than Oly.

If you're talking about convertees, let's talk percentages.

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L USM

07/10/2004 06:27:30 AM · #94

Originally posted by PaulMdx:

Originally posted by TomH1000:
I can show you a lot of people that sold all there Canon gear for the E-1. Can you show me any people that sold there E-1 for Canon? I think not.

The number of people is irrelevent, because there's a gigantically larger number of Canon users than Oly.

If you're talking about convertees, let's talk percentages.

Irrelevent you say? I don't think so. I see you know nothing about statistics and trends. So you want to talk about percentages? Ok, there are more Canon users switching to Olympus then the other way around. And just think the E-1 is only about 8 months old. I am betting that by next year at this time there will be maybe an E-2 with 8 to 10 mp, more lenses and your gigantically number of Canon users will be getting smaller.

Tom

PaulMdx

Canon EOS-1D

07/10/2004 06:33:20 AM · #95

Originally posted by TomH1000:

Can you provide figures? If not, please stop trying to guess statistics to try and prove a point.

Bran-O-Rama

Canon EOS-5D

Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L USM

07/10/2004 06:59:46 AM · #96

Give it a rest already and create your own "E-1 is teh winnar" thread. This thread is clearly on deciding between the Rebel or 10D. If I were considering between either a Toyota Camry or a Honda Accord, or whether to eat an apple or orange, suggesting that I buy a Dodge Neon or eat a banana is not an option.. in other words, please stay on topic.

Now that we got that out of the way..

..as stated before if funds are an issue, get the Reb and save up for good glass. Otherwise if you can afford it, go with 10D.

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Canon

07/10/2004 07:32:42 AM · #97

Originally posted by PaulMdx:

Originally posted by TomH1000:
Irrelevent you say? I don't think so. I see you know nothing about statistics and trends. So you want to talk about percentages? Ok, there are more Canon users switching to Olympus then the other way around.

Can you provide figures? If not, please stop trying to guess statistics to try and prove a point.

This is interesting I think.It is from a Canon forum:
//forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1019&message=9109552
It is about 50/50 and like I said, it is a Canon forum. You do the math.

Tom

UNCLEBRO

Canon EOS-30D

07/10/2004 07:46:45 AM · #98