Christians - DPChallenge Forums

11/06/2004 11:44:25 PM · #202

Isn't it amazing what conclusions one might come to when you let your mind run amuck.

11/06/2004 11:51:15 PM · #203

How would you explain it?

Originally posted by David Ey:

Isn't it amazing what conclusions one might come to when you let your mind run amuck.

11/06/2004 11:52:23 PM · #204

Originally posted by Olyuzi:

The Salem witch trials, if that's what you are referring to, are largely believed in the scientific community to have been caused by hallucinogenic molds growing in the food supply at the time. The accusers were not clergy, but several teenage girls.

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

11/06/2004 11:54:45 PM · #205

The strong overcame the weak.....or....what myqyl said.

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

11/06/2004 11:57:21 PM · #206

To argue a functional or practical difference between "the root of all evil" and "the root of all kinds of evil" has rather the air of Clinton-esque semantics.

11/07/2004 12:03:16 AM · #207

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by myqyl:

Originally posted by MadMordegon:
Again why I say Christianity blinds people and holds back rational, logical and scientific process thought.

I've kept my nose out of this one for a while, but I really need to call you on this. If it hadn't been for Christianity, and more specifically the Catholic church, most of the works of the ancient philosophers would have been lost. Most western books before the mid 1500's were preserved by the church. Most of the scientific advances from the Renaissance were funded by the church. The fire at the library in Alexandria would have seemed like a minor hiccup compared to what would have been lost during the Dark Ages without the church.

I'm not implying that some scientific ventures have not been suppressed by the church. Just pointing out that you are taking a very one sided view of things.

Actually, I believe those ancient (Greek) scientific writings were preserved by the Arabs during what in Europe is commonly known as the "Dark Ages." Later, after the Moors were rooted out of southern Europe and Iberia the ancient writings were re-translated from Arabic into Latin, leading to a Renaissance ("rebirth") of scientific thought in western Europe, against the stout resistance of the Church.

Galileo may have been a devout Catholic, but the Church he apparently respected forced him to publicly recant his (correct) scientific views, and imprisoned him (admittedly a form of house arrest) for much of the latter stages of life. Less well-known and benign is the fate of Bruno. Just to be clear, "heresy" is a crime against the church, not the government.

BRUNO, GIORDANO
Giordano (Filippo) Bruno (1548-1600) was an Italian philosopher, poet, and priest who spread the ideas of Copernicus as well as his own ideas that there were an infinity of worlds in the universe and that the stars were other suns. He was burned at the stake for heresy.

A common misconception... Look at the link below for an in-depth explanation, but here is the most relevant piece... "Bruno was not condemned for his defense of the Copernican system of astronomy, nor for his doctrine of the plurality of inhabited worlds, but for his theological errors, among which were the following: that Christ was not God but merely an unusually skillful magician, that the Holy Ghost is the soul of the world, that the Devil will be saved, etc. "

Bruno's entry in the Catholic Encyclopedia

Did Bruno deserve to die? I'd say no... Did Jesus approve of his execution? I really doubt it, but I don't speak for Him. Was he executed because of his scientific views? Nope, no way...

11/07/2004 12:07:14 AM · #208

Originally posted by myqyl:

Originally posted by Olyuzi:
The intolerance and persecution of witches by the christians for centuries is a good example of how threatened the church felt by these women who revered nature. They studied nature and were healers that used herbal knowledge and were also midwives. Seems to me the church needs to keep women under control for they fear their powers of healing, childbirth, sexuality and connection to the natural.

The Salem witch trials, if that's what you are referring to, are largely believed in the scientific community to have been caused by hallucinogenic molds growing in the food supply at the time. The accusers were not clergy, but several teenage girls.

11/07/2004 12:11:35 AM · #209

Sorry, not following you here.

Originally posted by David Ey:

The strong overcame the weak.....or....what myqyl said.

RonB

Canon EOS-300D Rebel

11/07/2004 12:15:25 AM · #210

Originally posted by GeneralE:

To argue a functional or practical difference between "the root of all evil" and "the root of all kinds of evil" has rather the air of Clinton-esque semantics.

To some - perhaps those who are unable to discern the difference. Consider the two following statements:

Steel is the base of all fasteners.

Steel is the base of all kinds of fasteners.

See the difference?

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

11/07/2004 12:18:38 AM · #211

Originally posted by GeneralE:

To argue a functional or practical difference between "the root of all evil" and "the root of all kinds of evil" has rather the air of Clinton-esque semantics.

You don't see a rather profound difference between "Money is the root of all evil" and "For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs."? I agree with your original sentiment that it is a Biblical condemnation of capitalism in it's current form. But you don't see a difference between these?

zeuszen

Canon EOS-1Ds Mark II

11/07/2004 12:20:39 AM · #212

Originally posted by Olyuzi:

lol.
Well, it's not just the Salem witch trials...but many centuries of persecution against witches. In fact, it was the church that turned the term from something positive in the community to something negative..

Originally posted by myqyl:

Originally posted by Olyuzi:
The intolerance and persecution of witches by the christians for centuries is a good example of how threatened the church felt by these women who revered nature. They studied nature and were healers that used herbal knowledge and were also midwives. Seems to me the church needs to keep women under control for they fear their powers of healing, childbirth, sexuality and connection to the natural.

The Salem witch trials, if that's what you are referring to, are largely believed in the scientific community to have been caused by hallucinogenic molds growing in the food supply at the time. The accusers were not clergy, but several teenage girls.

The German word for 'witch' is 'Hexe', from the Saxon 'Hagusassa' [Hagen' = fence, bramble; 'Sassa' = to sit, occupy], ergo a 'witch' = someone who occupies the boundary between village and forest (considering that Germany had the densest forests of all of Europe at the time witches existed and were persucuted, tortured and burnt there): a person with a presence in two worlds, a cultivated one and a wild one.

11/07/2004 12:24:31 AM · #213

Seems to me that this exercise in semantics is about getting away from the question originally asked about the meaning of this phrase and how it relates to the current administration in charge of running this country. Imo, they do not behave in Christian moral ways, but rather are chasing money, and all it represents, which seems to go against this biblical phrase. Whether it's all evil, or all kinds of evil, seems that Bush is using his exploits for the wrong and evil ways.

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

11/07/2004 12:29:02 AM · #214

And they were very connected with nature, which seems antithetical to the teachings of the church. That's why I think they felt threatened by their existence.

Originally posted by zeuszen:

Originally posted by Olyuzi:
lol.
Well, it's not just the Salem witch trials...but many centuries of persecution against witches. In fact, it was the church that turned the term from something positive in the community to something negative..

Originally posted by myqyl:

Originally posted by Olyuzi:
The intolerance and persecution of witches by the christians for centuries is a good example of how threatened the church felt by these women who revered nature. They studied nature and were healers that used herbal knowledge and were also midwives. Seems to me the church needs to keep women under control for they fear their powers of healing, childbirth, sexuality and connection to the natural.

The Salem witch trials, if that's what you are referring to, are largely believed in the scientific community to have been caused by hallucinogenic molds growing in the food supply at the time. The accusers were not clergy, but several teenage girls.

The German word for 'witch' is 'Hexe', from the Saxon 'Hagusassa' [Hagen' = fence, bramble; 'Sassa' = to sit, occupy], ergo a 'witch' = someone who occupies the boundary between village and forest (considering that Germany had the densest forests of all of Europe at the time witches existed and were persucuted, tortured and burnt there): a person with a presence in two worlds, a cultivated one and a wild one.

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

11/07/2004 12:31:10 AM · #215

Originally posted by myqyl:

Originally posted by GeneralE:
To argue a functional or practical difference between "the root of all evil" and "the root of all kinds of evil" has rather the air of Clinton-esque semantics.

You don't see a rather profound difference between "Money is the root of all evil" and "For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs."? I agree with your original sentiment that it is a Biblical condemnation of capitalism in it's current form. But you don't see a difference between these?

You just misquoted me in the way that most people misquote Timothy. It (and I) did not say that "money is ..." but rather that the "love of money ..." is.

What I did say there was no difference betweeen is "all evil ..." and "all kinds of evil ..."

I'm glad you agree that an economic system which uses greed as its primary motivator is inherently anti-Christian in principle ... any others?

Message edited by author 2004-11-07 00:31:53.

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

11/07/2004 12:35:01 AM · #216

oh come on General, Capitalism does not denote greed.

MadMordegon

11/07/2004 12:37:40 AM · #217

Originally posted by David Ey:

oh come on General, Capitalism does not denote greed.

LOL oh thats rich.

zeuszen

Canon EOS-1Ds Mark II

11/07/2004 12:40:05 AM · #218

Originally posted by Olyuzi:

And they were very connected with nature, which seems antithetical to the teachings of the church. That's why I think they felt threatened by their existence.

The church's control of her sheep was threatened by witches, because these harboured knowledge which preceded the 'new faith', a knowledge which had grown natively. It was the last remnant of practiced 'paganism' ('pagan', incidentally, 'someone who lives in the country/wild).

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

11/07/2004 12:40:17 AM · #219

your not self employed are you?

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

11/07/2004 12:41:11 AM · #220

Originally posted by David Ey:

oh come on General, Capitalism does not denote greed.

As I said below, it postulates that the best motivator for inventiveness and progress is the prospect of aggrandizement of material possessions, priviledged treatment, and the freedom from physical labor. Its most successful practitioners make nothing, produce nothing of value to society as a whole (not even public amusement, like the entertainment industry), but rather are merely skilled at making financial transactions for profit, much like a skilled poker or blackjack player at a table full of marks.

It is based on greed, and "success" is marketed as being measured by your financial achievements rather than your contribution to the improvement of your community.

Sounds like greed to me.

Message edited by author 2004-11-07 00:42:48.

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

11/07/2004 12:44:49 AM · #221

ever hear the parable of the talants?

zeuszen

Canon EOS-1Ds Mark II

11/07/2004 12:49:55 AM · #222

Originally posted by GeneralE:

...(Capitalism) postulates that the best motivator for inventiveness and progress is the prospect of aggrandizement of material possessions, priviledged treatment, and the freedom from physical labor. Its most successful practitioners make nothing, produce nothing of value to society as a whole (not even public amusement, like the entertainment industry), but rather are merely skilled at making financial transactions for profit, much like a skilled poker or blackjack player at a table full of marks...

Well said. Not served on a pretty platter either.

11/07/2004 12:50:21 AM · #223

Originally posted by Olyuzi:

I'd suggest you might want to read this for a slightly more factual dissertation of the church and witchcraft. It points out where you're right (South of France 1350 - 1450), but also shows that large portions of what you believe is true is actually due to the influence of several novels written in the mid 1800's and Hollywood's obsession with violent imagery.

To summarize for anyone that doesn't want to read through it, portions of the church were certainly guilty of persecution of pagans in the midsts of the Black Death. from the mid 1500's, the Catholic church has opposed the death penalty for any offenses and have written defenses of accused witches. Most of the witch burning in the middle ages was done by German penal law, not the church.