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11/05/2004 03:44:17 PM · #101 |
jmritz, I can see in some people hurt in their faces at the idea of Gay Marriage too. They are gay couples who love each other and deserve to be treated equal and fair. Unfortunately, a civil union is not equal to a marriage in the eyes of our government. This needs to be changed. Maybe the government should step away from the religious institution of marriage, and only acknowledge civil unions. That way, when a straight couple gets married, the state will not recognize the marriage under the eyes of God, but will recognize the civil union under the eyes of the state.
Message edited by author 2004-11-05 15:46:52. |
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11/05/2004 04:11:02 PM · #102 |
Originally posted by ericlimon:
how can you compare assisted suicide with consenting adults having sex? That's reaching pretty far RonB |
Are not both activities that involve consenting adults? |
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11/05/2004 04:15:53 PM · #103 |
Originally posted by ericlimon:
jmritz, I can see in some people hurt in their faces at the idea of Gay Marriage too. They are gay couples who love each other and deserve to be treated equal and fair. Unfortunately, a civil union is not equal to a marriage in the eyes of our government. This needs to be changed. Maybe the government should step away from the religious institution of marriage, and only acknowledge civil unions. That way, when a straight couple gets married, the state will not recognize the marriage under the eyes of God, but will recognize the civil union under the eyes of the state. |
I voted for Bush and have to admit I think Kerry lost because of this one issue. Last summer I told my friends that are very pro Gay Marriage that I thought it was a bad time to bring the Issue up. Wait a year so they could get their man elected then bring it up. Their chances of getting things their way would be much better with Kerry in office, but they wouldn’t wait. Sometimes people shoot themselves in the foot because they see a little hope on the horizon and just will not take the time for society to catch up with them.
Civil Unions are fine by me. Give them all the rights reserved for Marriage. Now that we don’t have a marriage penalty tax because of Bush it is advantageous to be married with both people working.
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11/05/2004 04:23:07 PM · #104 |
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by ericlimon:
how can you compare assisted suicide with consenting adults having sex? That's reaching pretty far RonB |
Are not both activities that involve consenting adults? |
Isn't sex with your wife or girlfriend also consenting? like I said, how can you even compare the two? |
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11/05/2004 04:42:47 PM · #105 |
Originally posted by ericlimon:
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by ericlimon:
how can you compare assisted suicide with consenting adults having sex? That's reaching pretty far RonB |
Are not both activities that involve consenting adults? |
Isn't sex with your wife or girlfriend also consenting? like I said, how can you even compare the two? |
I can compare them because both are immoral ( as is sex with your girlfriend ( unless she also happens to be your wife )).
Sex with your wife is not immoral, unless she says no, in which case it is called rape, and is immoral. |
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11/05/2004 05:01:27 PM · #106 |
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by ericlimon:
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by ericlimon:
how can you compare assisted suicide with consenting adults having sex? That's reaching pretty far RonB |
Are not both activities that involve consenting adults? |
Isn't sex with your wife or girlfriend also consenting? like I said, how can you even compare the two? |
I can compare them because both are immoral ( as is sex with your girlfriend ( unless she also happens to be your wife )).
Sex with your wife is not immoral, unless she says no, in which case it is called rape, and is immoral. |
Is it moral for your government to kill people ? Or do they get a special pass on that one ? Point is, you appear to be using circular logic, by effectively claiming that something can't be moral, because it isn't currently thought as moral. We could point back to the pig touching again for a similar example. Society defines what is moral or not, at any given time. Different societies define different moral standards. State executions are apparently moral in parts of the US but not in all countries that would claim to be Christian, for example.
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11/05/2004 05:10:47 PM · #107 |
Originally posted by RonB:
SO...the question then becomes, should society accept pedophilia because pedophilia is also "not just a choice"?
And, how about necrophilia while we're at it. Oh, and beastiality, too.
I think that you would draw the line somewhere - the problem is how to justify where you draw the line. |
How dare you equate my loving eight year relationship to my partner with raping children and sex with corpses? Why don't you spend some time elaborating on your position for me? Tell me again why my committed (and mostly sexless) non-marriage is like screwing a dog.
This is not abstract. Are you equating MY behavior with these things?
Message edited by author 2004-11-05 17:13:41.
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11/05/2004 05:14:38 PM · #108 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by ericlimon:
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by ericlimon:
how can you compare assisted suicide with consenting adults having sex? That's reaching pretty far RonB |
Are not both activities that involve consenting adults? |
Isn't sex with your wife or girlfriend also consenting? like I said, how can you even compare the two? |
I can compare them because both are immoral ( as is sex with your girlfriend ( unless she also happens to be your wife )).
Sex with your wife is not immoral, unless she says no, in which case it is called rape, and is immoral. |
Is it moral for your government to kill people ? Or do they get a special pass on that one ? Point is, you appear to be using circular logic, by effectively claiming that something can't be moral, because it isn't currently thought as moral. We could point back to the pig touching again for a similar example. Society defines what is moral or not, at any given time. Different societies define different moral standards. State executions are apparently moral in parts of the US but not in all countries that would claim to be Christian, for example. |
Let's take your questions one at a time.
Is it moral for your government to kill people ?
First, a point of semantics. Governments don't kill people. People kill people. That being said...Yes, sometimes it IS moral for people, at the behest of the government, to kill other people.
You say that I appear to be using circular logic, by effectively claiming that something can't be moral, because it isn't currently thought as moral.
Wrong. I say it is immoral because the writings on which I base my worldview say that it is immoral. The writings on which I base my worldview do not vary according to the whims of a changing society.
Society defines what is moral or not, at any given time. Different societies define different moral standards. State executions are apparently moral in parts of the US but not in all countries that would claim to be Christian, for example.
And that, my friend, is the big problem. No uniform standards. No moral compass. No foundation. If some group can convince enough people, they can get their pet perversion put on the "accepted" list. |
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11/05/2004 05:21:14 PM · #109 |
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by ericlimon:
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by ericlimon:
how can you compare assisted suicide with consenting adults having sex? That's reaching pretty far RonB |
Are not both activities that involve consenting adults? |
Isn't sex with your wife or girlfriend also consenting? like I said, how can you even compare the two? |
I can compare them because both are immoral ( as is sex with your girlfriend ( unless she also happens to be your wife )).
Sex with your wife is not immoral, unless she says no, in which case it is called rape, and is immoral. |
Marriage between a black person and a white person was considered immoral not long ago. Morals change. It is time for this one to change too, IMO. |
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11/05/2004 05:22:45 PM · #110 |
Originally posted by RonB:
And that, my friend, is the big problem. No uniform standards. No moral compass. No foundation. If some group can convince enough people, they can get their pet perversion put on the "accepted" list. |
Are you making the argument that without being religious, a person cannot be moral or ethical? |
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11/05/2004 05:27:15 PM · #111 |
Originally posted by ScottK:
[
Before anyone screams about this absurd comparison, the point is simply that your arguement that because seeing a man kissing creeps some people out, that it therefore isn't a choice doesn't stand up. There are many things that creep people out, whether it be because of cultural differences, lack of exposure, or because its just wrong.
I think the argument holds up quite well, even with your torturedconsumed octopus. :D
Because to continue the analogy, a person who dislikes eating raw octopus would *not* choose to eat nothing but raw octopus for the rest of his life, especially when more appealing dishes are on the menu.
Nobody chooses something repulsive.
And, where would bi-sexuality fit in then? The bi-sexual person certainly seems to have the choice of who they are attracted to. |
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11/05/2004 05:39:51 PM · #112 |
Originally posted by gingerbaker:
Originally posted by RonB:
And that, my friend, is the big problem. No uniform standards. No moral compass. No foundation. If some group can convince enough people, they can get their pet perversion put on the "accepted" list. |
Are you making the argument that without being religious, a person cannot be moral or ethical? |
Well, first of all, no one can BE moral or ethical. They can, and do, exhibit moral and ethical behaviour some of the time, perhaps even most of the time, but never all of the time. That being said, just as someone can be driving under the speed limit without knowing what the limit actually is, someone can exhibit moral or ethical behaviour without knowing what the limits of "moral" or "ethical" are, whether they are religious or not.
However, my point was that if you base your own personal morals and ethics on what society says, then you leave yourself vulnerable to confusion in how you ought to behave. |
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11/05/2004 05:48:24 PM · #113 |
Originally posted by RonB:
...Yes, sometimes it IS moral for people, at the behest of the government, to kill other people.
You say that I appear to be using circular logic, by effectively claiming that something can't be moral, because it isn't currently thought as moral.
Wrong. I say it is immoral because the writings on which I base my worldview say that it is immoral. The writings on which I base my worldview do not vary according to the whims of a changing society. |
That would appear to be precisely the argument Mr. bin Laden uses for taking down the WTC and continuing the extermination of us infidels. |
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11/05/2004 05:53:01 PM · #114 |
Originally posted by RonB:
The writings on which I base my worldview do not vary according to the whims of a changing society. |
and which societies translation of those writings are you basing this non-changing view upon ?
Edit: anyway, I'll remove myself from the discussion. It has gone beyond discussing anything that can be based upon rational debate anyway.
Message edited by author 2004-11-05 17:54:58.
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11/05/2004 05:54:41 PM · #115 |
Originally posted by RonB:
I can compare them because both are immoral ( as is sex with your girlfriend ( unless she also happens to be your wife )). |
I live with my girlfriend and regularly have sex with her, out of wedlock. Are you calling me and my girlfriend immoral people? |
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11/05/2004 05:58:46 PM · #116 |
Originally posted by MadMordegon:
Originally posted by RonB:
I can compare them because both are immoral ( as is sex with your girlfriend ( unless she also happens to be your wife )). |
I live with my girlfriend and regularly have sex with her, out of wedlock. Are you calling me and my girlfriend immoral people? |
What? |
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11/05/2004 05:59:49 PM · #117 |
Originally posted by Mousie:
Originally posted by RonB:
SO...the question then becomes, should society accept pedophilia because pedophilia is also "not just a choice"?
And, how about necrophilia while we're at it. Oh, and beastiality, too.
I think that you would draw the line somewhere - the problem is how to justify where you draw the line. |
How dare you equate my loving eight year relationship to my partner with raping children and sex with corpses? Why don't you spend some time elaborating on your position for me? Tell me again why my committed (and mostly sexless) non-marriage is like screwing a dog.
This is not abstract. Are you equating MY behavior with these things? |
It is not I, but my God that draws the comparison. God says that if I dishonor my parents, it is the same as committing murder - both are sins and deserving of eternal death ( that is, separation from God ). Society has categorized the sins committed against society and their related punishments very nicely - all the way from white lies to first degree murder, with punishments ranging from a slap on the wrist to public execution. God, on the other hand, categorizes all sin as having the exact same punishment - death.
I do not equate your having sex with your partner with "screwing a dog". But I do hold that both are perversions. Then again, I hold having heterosexual sex with someone not your spouse in the same light ( adultery if you are married, fornication if you're not ). |
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11/05/2004 06:05:08 PM · #118 |
Originally posted by MadMordegon:
Originally posted by RonB:
I can compare them because both are immoral ( as is sex with your girlfriend ( unless she also happens to be your wife )). |
I live with my girlfriend and regularly have sex with her, out of wedlock. Are you calling me and my girlfriend immoral people? |
Yes. But before you go off the deep end, be advised that I consider myself to be immoral as well. |
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11/05/2004 06:11:36 PM · #119 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by RonB:
The writings on which I base my worldview do not vary according to the whims of a changing society. |
and which societies translation of those writings are you basing this non-changing view upon ? |
Not the translation of a society, per se. More like several different translations of the Books of the Bible that were selected for inclusion in the King James Version, along with historical writings and other commentaries. And, before anyone goes into the whole pig thing again, I don't base my worldview on one verse taken out of context here or there, but rather on the Bible taken as a whole.
Oh, yeah, and just to make you aware - the fact that the morals and ethics proscribed by the Bible don't change doesn't mean that MY views don't change. In fact, my views DO change as I study and gain a greater understanding of scripture.
Message edited by author 2004-11-05 18:13:48. |
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11/05/2004 06:13:13 PM · #120 |
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by Mousie:
Originally posted by RonB:
SO...the question then becomes, should society accept pedophilia because pedophilia is also "not just a choice"?
And, how about necrophilia while we're at it. Oh, and beastiality, too.
I think that you would draw the line somewhere - the problem is how to justify where you draw the line. |
How dare you equate my loving eight year relationship to my partner with raping children and sex with corpses? Why don't you spend some time elaborating on your position for me? Tell me again why my committed (and mostly sexless) non-marriage is like screwing a dog.
This is not abstract. Are you equating MY behavior with these things? |
It is not I, but my God that draws the comparison. God says that if I dishonor my parents, it is the same as committing murder - both are sins and deserving of eternal death ( that is, separation from God ). Society has categorized the sins committed against society and their related punishments very nicely - all the way from white lies to first degree murder, with punishments ranging from a slap on the wrist to public execution. God, on the other hand, categorizes all sin as having the exact same punishment - death.
I do not equate your having sex with your partner with "screwing a dog". But I do hold that both are perversions. Then again, I hold having heterosexual sex with someone not your spouse in the same light ( adultery if you are married, fornication if you're not ). |
Ok, I'm confused. Your God says what he is doing is wrong so you are saying what he is doing is wrong. I think what he is doing is not wrong. What makes you right and me wrong? Or even what makes me right and you wrong? Does it even matter what I or you think about how he leads his life? |
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11/05/2004 06:14:16 PM · #121 |
Originally posted by RonB:
It is not I, but my God that draws the comparison. God says that if I dishonor my parents, it is the same as committing murder - both are sins and deserving of eternal death ( that is, separation from God ). Society has categorized the sins committed against society and their related punishments very nicely - all the way from white lies to first degree murder, with punishments ranging from a slap on the wrist to public execution. God, on the other hand, categorizes all sin as having the exact same punishment - death.
I do not equate your having sex with your partner with "screwing a dog". But I do hold that both are perversions. Then again, I hold having heterosexual sex with someone not your spouse in the same light ( adultery if you are married, fornication if you're not ). |
So why does pedophilia always come up as a way to describe the 'slippery slope' of gay marriage, and not the wearing of clothes made of two types of fabric, or the eating of shellfish? Could it be that you're using the specter of child moestation solely to cast a bad light on something you *personally* don't like by associating it with something that you know provokes a negative response in people in a way that a mere lobster dinner does not? After all, in your own words, all are equal sins in the eyes of your God.
Why do you *choose* to equate MY bahavior with raping children?
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11/05/2004 06:17:17 PM · #122 |
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by MadMordegon:
Originally posted by RonB:
I can compare them because both are immoral ( as is sex with your girlfriend ( unless she also happens to be your wife )). |
I live with my girlfriend and regularly have sex with her, out of wedlock. Are you calling me and my girlfriend immoral people? |
Yes. But before you go off the deep end, be advised that I consider myself to be immoral as well. |
Ron buddy, I think you are the one who is off the deep end. |
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11/05/2004 06:24:26 PM · #123 |
Originally posted by moodville:
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by Mousie:
Originally posted by RonB:
SO...the question then becomes, should society accept pedophilia because pedophilia is also "not just a choice"?
And, how about necrophilia while we're at it. Oh, and beastiality, too.
I think that you would draw the line somewhere - the problem is how to justify where you draw the line. |
How dare you equate my loving eight year relationship to my partner with raping children and sex with corpses? Why don't you spend some time elaborating on your position for me? Tell me again why my committed (and mostly sexless) non-marriage is like screwing a dog.
This is not abstract. Are you equating MY behavior with these things? |
It is not I, but my God that draws the comparison. God says that if I dishonor my parents, it is the same as committing murder - both are sins and deserving of eternal death ( that is, separation from God ). Society has categorized the sins committed against society and their related punishments very nicely - all the way from white lies to first degree murder, with punishments ranging from a slap on the wrist to public execution. God, on the other hand, categorizes all sin as having the exact same punishment - death.
I do not equate your having sex with your partner with "screwing a dog". But I do hold that both are perversions. Then again, I hold having heterosexual sex with someone not your spouse in the same light ( adultery if you are married, fornication if you're not ). |
Ok, I'm confused. Your God says what he is doing is wrong so you are saying what he is doing is wrong. I think what he is doing is not wrong. What makes you right and me wrong? Or even what makes me right and you wrong? Does it even matter what I or you think about how he leads his life? |
Circular logic. Since God cannot be proven, it cannot be proven that the Bible is God's Word. Since that cannot be proven, it cannot be proven that I'm right. Then again, you cannot prove that God does NOT exist, hence cannot prove that the Bible is NOT God's Word - so you can't prove that I'm NOT right.
That being said - does it matter what you or I THINK about it. To ME, yes? - but only for me. To YOU?, I don't know, that's up to you. To how he leads his life?, I don't know, that's up to him.
Society can define morals any way it wants to - that won't change my life one whit. Mind you, if society passed a law that forced ME to violate the morals and ethics that form my worldview, then I would have to engage in some civil disobedience. |
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11/05/2004 06:32:26 PM · #124 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
Edit: anyway, I'll remove myself from the discussion. It has gone beyond discussing anything that can be based upon rational debate anyway. |
Indeed/agreed. |
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11/05/2004 06:32:53 PM · #125 |
Originally posted by Mousie:
Originally posted by RonB:
It is not I, but my God that draws the comparison. God says that if I dishonor my parents, it is the same as committing murder - both are sins and deserving of eternal death ( that is, separation from God ). Society has categorized the sins committed against society and their related punishments very nicely - all the way from white lies to first degree murder, with punishments ranging from a slap on the wrist to public execution. God, on the other hand, categorizes all sin as having the exact same punishment - death.
I do not equate your having sex with your partner with "screwing a dog". But I do hold that both are perversions. Then again, I hold having heterosexual sex with someone not your spouse in the same light ( adultery if you are married, fornication if you're not ). |
So why does pedophilia always come up as a way to describe the 'slippery slope' of gay marriage, and not the wearing of clothes made of two types of fabric, or the eating of shellfish? Could it be that you're using the specter of child moestation solely to cast a bad light on something you *personally* don't like by associating it with something that you know provokes a negative response in people in a way that a mere lobster dinner does not? After all, in your own words, all are equal sins in the eyes of your God.
Why do you *choose* to equate MY bahavior with raping children? |
First - not RAPING children, but sexual activities involving children - like fondling, etc. Then, because eating lobster is not usually considered a sexual activity. Let's face it, homosexuality IS a sexual behaviour. |
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