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06/13/2002 10:03:35 PM · #1 |
i'm wondering if anyone has any thoughts on the following situation:
i wanted to work with a particular model to get some shots for my portfolio. I contacted her about doing a Time for Prints (TFP) exchange, which is a standard deal up-and-coming models and photogs offer each other: I'll give you my time, in exchange for you give me a copy of the pictures.
She said she was willing, but after a few slippages in the date, I wanted to ensure that the event occurred, so I offered to pay her to sit for me. She agreed.
The shoot came, and went. I used my E-10, which I have had since February, and is my first non P&S digital camera. Before that I had a, don't laugh, DC50 - great for taking to the beach, when you don't give a rat's if something happens to the camera :) .
15 mins before the shoot I discovered all of my NiMH's were discharged for some reason (bad charger), and ran like a maniac to the store to buy a brick of alkalines - the only recourse I had.
That's when I discovered that alkaline batteries, even the best ones, only give me ~20 shots, as opposed to 150-200 on good NiMH's. But anyway, I digress ..
I ended up paying her a lot more than free. On the plus side, I got a lot of really excellent pictures from that shoot.
Now here is the question: I actually paid her for her time, it was not TFP. So I don't necessarily feel like I owe her the pictures. Since I paid her, should I give her a contact sheet and maybe half the full size image files, and if she wanted the rest, she could buy them from me?
Or should I just give her all of the pictures as well as having paid her and chalk this up to "learning to define everything up front" next time? : )
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06/13/2002 10:19:05 PM · #2 |
Magnetic..it all depends on how new she is, what her expectations were going in to the shoot, how much you paid her, what you plan on doing with the photos etc, etc.
If she is new, got paid decent and did not expect a lot going in I would offer her a choice of some (maybe 4 or 5) large prints and a contact sheet with all the shots for her portfolio for free and then charge for more prints and retain ownership of the originals.
But it is all subjective depending on so many variables.
I need to find some models myself. My freind owns a "gentlemans" club in Baltimore. I wonder if the young ladies need some portfolio shots :-) |
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06/13/2002 10:19:17 PM · #3 |
Hi mag.
I think you owe her the prints. I hate to take a hard line, but you pretty much know the answer already. The right thing to do is to complete the deal.
SNIP>>I just give her all of the pictures as well as having paid her and chalk this up to "learning to define everything up front" next time?
Make up a simple contract to read 'battery failure, weather, low flying birds, bad hair day'--- etc....then have an lawyer look it over.
Maybe since you paid her she'll cut you some slack <??>
All the best Kee.
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06/13/2002 10:20:09 PM · #4 |
Double post..ooops :-)
* This message has been edited by the author on 6/13/2002 10:20:10 PM. |
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06/14/2002 12:15:50 AM · #5 |
If you did not promise prints, do not give them. You paid for her time, what else do you owe her? I would give a contact sheet, and tell her you would gladly sell or do TFP for any prints she wants.
To me, if you did not promise both, do not give it. Do ou feel like she got a fair deal? Do you want to work with her again? (if so, cut some slack) You could always just give her a disc of the photos.
If you told her you would give her prints, then suck it up and give it to her. You do not want to be known for screwing you models unless you actually do :)
Originally posted by magnetic9999:
i''m wondering if anyone has any thoughts on the following situation:
i wanted to work with a particular model to get some shots for my portfolio. I contacted her about doing a Time for Prints (TFP) exchange, which is a standard deal up-and-coming models and photogs offer each other: I''ll give you my time, in exchange for you give me a copy of the pictures.
She said she was willing, but after a few slippages in the date, I wanted to ensure that the event occurred, so I offered to pay her to sit for me. She agreed.
The shoot came, and went. I used my E-10, which I have had since February, and is my first non P&S digital camera. Before that I had a, don''t laugh, DC50 - great for taking to the beach, when you don''t give a rat''s if something happens to the camera :) .
15 mins before the shoot I discovered all of my NiMH''s were discharged for some reason (bad charger), and ran like a maniac to the store to buy a brick of alkalines - the only recourse I had.
That''s when I discovered that alkaline batteries, even the best ones, only give me ~20 shots, as opposed to 150-200 on good NiMH''s. But anyway, I digress ..
I ended up paying her a lot more than free. On the plus side, I got a lot of really excellent pictures from that shoot.
Now here is the question: I actually paid her for her time, it was not TFP. So I don''t necessarily feel like I owe her the pictures. Since I paid her, should I give her a contact sheet and maybe half the full size image files, and if she wanted the rest, she could buy them from me?
Or should I just give her all of the pictures as well as having paid her and chalk this up to "learning to define everything up front" next time? : )
* This message has been edited by the author on 6/14/2002 12:18:08 AM.
* This message has been edited by the author on 6/14/2002 12:18:53 AM.
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06/14/2002 12:39:18 AM · #6 |
| I'd probably talk to her. Does she want prints? If I were you, I'd pick a number I was willing to make for her, and go into negotiations with that in mind. Otherwise, you might just give her a CD. I'd put full res files on it (if you don't she'll probably go ahead and get prints that look crappy from the reduced files, and they'll have your name on them) but overlay a nice © notice and maybe a contact number or e-mail addy. |
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06/14/2002 12:41:33 AM · #7 |
Well, that's the thing: I do want to do the right thing, both by her and by me, too. I did get some great images, and she was a great model, and having taken pictures of her will probably help me in the long run.
The ambiguous part is this: the fate of the prints, or in this case hi-rez files, was never actually discussed. it was straightforward in that when it was TFP, it's understood, I will "pay" her with prints, not money, or in this case, actually a CD ROM of finished hi rez files.
But when it became a work for hire situation, the whole equation changed, and the outcome of all the specifics was never discussed.
On the other side of it, she did sign a model release, so I have full rights to the pictures. So how does it matter or affect me if she has full size copies of all them anyway? |
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06/14/2002 12:47:27 AM · #8 |
What about posting the files at a printing service (e.g. Ofoto, Shutterfly). She can order as many 8x10 glossies as she wants for herself. You won''t control the printing, but you will control the files.
I''d also give her a contact print and one or two 8x10s -- i.e. more than you may "owe," but what should be no big deal to you.
Develop a reputation as being a "good guy" in the business and you will reap benefits far in excess of your small investment now.
I, myself, would also give her copies of the files (final version), but with a clear (written) understanding that you maintain the copyright -- you are granting her a limited, non-exclusive license to make reproductions for her own personal and promotional use only. If you put your photo credit/contact info on the print itself (isn''t that standard practice?) you''d want her passing out as many as possible anyway. But if you don''t want to give up the files (not unreasonable) giving her a link is reasonable, and a nice thing to do.
Here''s a comp sheet I made up for an actress friend of my mothers.
You could also give her the files in a non-reproducible format, for example protected Acrobat PDF file. You can easily set it so the file can be viewed, but the graphics an''t be selected/copied, and you can even turn off printing. Let me know if you need help/info wth this.
You DID get a RELEASE, right?
* This message has been edited by the author on 6/14/2002 1:15:22 AM. |
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06/14/2002 12:49:53 AM · #9 |
| It kind of depends on what the release says, but I assume it gives you (and your agents, in-laws and unborn children) full rights to the images. Technically, she'd probably need your permission to make prints from the CD, but I can't see this as being a problem unless they start turning up in ads or on posters or something. Even then, as the copyright holder you'd be entitled to a nice payoff. Make the copyright notice and contact info as prominent as you can get away with. |
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06/14/2002 06:42:09 AM · #10 |
Unless there is some specific reason to NOT give her the prints, why don't you go ahead and give them to her? If you paid her the FULL amount that she would normally get for a modeling session, then I would possibly ask her for reimbursement for the prints...
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06/14/2002 07:37:47 AM · #11 |
Well, that''s kind of what I''m trying to determine: is there any reason to NOT give her the full rez files? IE is there any reason I would REGRET giving her such?
Again, I have a signed model release that grants me full rights to the images.
And yes, I paid her the FULL price she would receive for a session.
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
Unless there is some specific reason to NOT give her the prints, why don''t you go ahead and give them to her? If you paid her the FULL amount that she would normally get for a modeling session, then I would possibly ask her for reimbursement for the prints...
* This message has been edited by the author on 6/14/2002 7:37:40 AM. |
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06/14/2002 08:10:05 AM · #12 |
Okay...I have no idea how things like this work, but if you offered TFP in the beginning and then actually paid her in the end, then I would think she could understand the difference. Even without it being said. Also, who's fault was it that the dates got messed up? Was it yours or hers?
I would give her the contact sheet and some prints and let her pay for whatever else she wants. I think maybe you both learn a lesson that way. She learns to ask questions and you learn to establish your objective up front before you take the photos.
On the other hand, if this is a model you want to work with again...let it go, give her the images and then make sure she knows that you are doing that this time...even though you paid her. Also, explaining to her how you feel may help too.
Just an opinion :)
Karen |
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06/14/2002 08:38:57 AM · #13 |
| I think you would both benefit in the long run if you give her copies of the pictures. Models have to build their own portfolios to show to agencies. These agencies in turn hire their own photography staff. Your copyrighted images would be shown wherever she goes. Just make sure your name appears at the bottom of the photos. |
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06/14/2002 09:36:04 AM · #14 |
I would also give her a few prints. In my case, I offer the model a copy of the shots (before I perform post-processing) in addition to payment. The models all sign releases, giving me full rights to the pictures, and i let them use the pictures for their websites and portfolio. Its good business and I get a lot of referrals from their friends.
Only one model has taken advantage of this situation. She has tried to copyright the photos. since she is known as a problem child by a fair number of photographers, she will get her due.
i have allowed some models to put their mark on a few of my pictures, but since they are popular playboy models, I will give them a pass. |
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06/14/2002 10:27:46 AM · #15 |
If you paid full price, then anything you give her is up to you... I wouldn't offer her anything more than some small token of your appreciation...
Originally posted by magnetic9999:
Well, that''s kind of what I''m trying to determine: is there any reason to NOT give her the full rez files? IE is there any reason I would REGRET giving her such?
Again, I have a signed model release that grants me full rights to the images.
And yes, I paid her the FULL price she would receive for a session.
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
[i]Unless there is some specific reason to NOT give her the prints, why don''t you go ahead and give them to her? If you paid her the FULL amount that she would normally get for a modeling session, then I would possibly ask her for reimbursement for the prints...
[/i]
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06/14/2002 10:42:04 AM · #16 |
Thanks to everyone who has chimed in on this - your comments have been helpful: in making me more confused than ever! : )
Just kidding.
Let me see if I understand this now:
Because I paid her full price and nothing was spelled out, I don't OWE her the full rez files ("prints" per se are not the issue here).
However, since I have a model release granting me full rights, there is no reason NOT to give her a copy of the full rez files, especially as long as I stipulate that they are only for her use in portfolio and promotion. I can do this by sending her a form to sign. Since the office I work in grants image - use rights I have a form I can modify for this purpose.
I'll also put my info and copyright on the images.
Does that sound about right? : )
Again, I don't mind giving her some or even all the full rez files as long as I am NOT 'screwing' myself in some way. And I would like to work with her again, so that is also a factor.
ps this is the model from my 'wonder in wonderland' photo... |
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06/14/2002 10:45:57 AM · #17 |
Magnetic, I would give her web resolution images. If you paid her full price for her modeling services, I think she should pay you your asking price for full rez image files. She will be able to get her own prints made from full res images... Most of my photographer friends treat a full res image file just like a negative. It doesn't leave their studios without a bill of sale.
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06/14/2002 10:49:35 AM · #18 |
Magnetic...
Free advice is worth every penny :-)
Seriously though..whatever you decide to do in your mind communicate with the model in a fashion that makes her feel like working with you is a great thing.
Even if she never gets to be anything more than a faded memory in the fashion model world or never even gets to be a memory at all at least you have a friend that won't talk bad about you to other, potentially bigger clients.
I can't say word for word what you should say cause you are you and I am me..weird how that works :-)
But whatever you say if she comes away with the idea that "Man, that guys is a good photographer, easy to work with, simple in his deals and is fair" you will reap major beneifits. She may even compare you to other jerks in the later years and come back to you and PAY YOU! What a concept! |
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06/14/2002 10:56:51 AM · #19 |
| hokie -- I'd say that's not a bad way of conducting ALL your interactions with others... |
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06/14/2002 12:09:21 PM · #20 |
Give her a contact sheet, and let her pick out 2 or 3 prints, do not let go of the high res images. Those are as good as negatives. If you do, make sure thay are TIFF, or some format that does not contain EXIF data, so you can prove which ones are original. I think anyone wanting to be a pro should protect the original images. I work for a major company, and we have to go through certain security measure to show that we believe our patents, trade marks, copy rights, etc, are valuable. It can make it hard to collect damages if you do not. If you give away high res images, and they show up on the net, well, you gave them away, they must not have value to you.
Originally posted by GeneralE:
hokie -- I'd say that's not a bad way of conducting ALL your interactions with others...
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06/14/2002 01:44:39 PM · #21 |
| I don't know if you'd be any safer giving her a paper print than a big file, especially if you've put a © and contact info on the file - an 8X10 prolly makes a pretty good scan... |
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06/14/2002 06:51:15 PM · #22 |
Originally posted by magnetic9999:
i'm wondering if anyone has any thoughts on the following situation:
i wanted to work with a particular model to get some shots for my portfolio. I contacted her about doing a Time for Prints (TFP) exchange, which is a standard deal up-and-coming models and photogs offer each other: I'll give you my time, in exchange for you give me a copy of the pictures.
She said she was willing, but after a few slippages in the date, I wanted to ensure that the event occurred, so I offered to pay her to sit for me. She agreed.
The shoot came, and went. I used my E-10, which I have had since February, and is my first non P&S digital camera. Before that I had a, don't laugh, DC50 - great for taking to the beach, when you don't give a rat's if something happens to the camera :) .
15 mins before the shoot I discovered all of my NiMH's were discharged for some reason (bad charger), and ran like a maniac to the store to buy a brick of alkalines - the only recourse I had.
That's when I discovered that alkaline batteries, even the best ones, only give me ~20 shots, as opposed to 150-200 on good NiMH's. But anyway, I digress ..
I ended up paying her a lot more than free. On the plus side, I got a lot of really excellent pictures from that shoot.
Now here is the question: I actually paid her for her time, it was not TFP. So I don't necessarily feel like I owe her the pictures. Since I paid her, should I give her a contact sheet and maybe half the full size image files, and if she wanted the rest, she could buy them from me?
Or should I just give her all of the pictures as well as having paid her and chalk this up to "learning to define everything up front" next time? : )
------------------------------
It̢۪s all Karma Baby.
If you had an agreement, then stick to that agreement. (You owe her the pictures for free). You then agreed to modify the original arrangement, so pay her and give her the pictures. If the few pictures you were able to give here are to here liking and of the quality you promised.
(It is not her fault you were ill prepared). She may be willing to work with you sometime again.
She may even say nice professional things about you that could boost your credibility to the people she will work with in the future.
You will make the right decisionâ€Â¦Ã¢€Â¦.
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06/14/2002 07:07:40 PM · #23 |
* This message has been edited by the author on 6/14/2002 11:19:26 PM. |
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