Implied versus Literal - DPChallenge Forums

10/25/2004 04:01:48 PM · #1

It seems this challenge is suffering just a bit. There seems to be a misunderstanding as to what an implied line is as opposed to a literal line.

The implied line is just that. The minds seeks to connect the dots to find the lines or to make whole of what is dispersed. Images can be put together to imply lines, but not all of these images qualify because not in all cases will the mind find the need to connect the dots.

A shadow is not a real line but the shadow can not be called an implied line. The same thing applies to sun rays breaking through clouds. These lines, while reflected are very literal and not at all implied.

It is often the case where implied lines are overlaid over literal lines and these images do qualify, for here you have the literal and implied. In short there is enough out there without trying to invent a situation in which to fit the concept.

An implied line is simply a broken line which the mind stitches together. A simple item in the kitchen like a grating utensil with many holes. The moment you look at it the mind finds a pattern of lines. Connecting the dots is another expression in the implied line.

thatcloudthere

Canon EOS-1D

Canon EF-S 18-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS STM

10/25/2004 04:06:14 PM · #2

Actually, implied lines have a much broader application than that (check out the link). The challenge description gives a specific example (or type) of implied line, but implied lines can be found in most photographs...the questions is, are they being used as an effective compositional tool?

Edit: Thanks to Nick (G4DS) for prompting me to look into this...

Message edited by author 2004-10-25 16:08:14.

SteveJ

Canon EOS-7D

10/25/2004 04:06:44 PM · #3

Perhaps the implication is in what caused the lines?

Perhaps not, what do I know?

10/25/2004 04:14:04 PM · #4

Teah, all this gets very tacky. Often the implied is interpreted as suggested. There is a difference. Thatcloud hit it on the nail in saying that these implied lines are every where, but they need to be exploited to pull off the composition.

Ivo

10/25/2004 04:15:05 PM · #5

This is hilarious. Why take any photos at all and have a debate solely about the meaning of each and every challenge. We can change the name of this site to "Zenchallenge - The digital photgraphers search for enlightenment" Yes this challenge is obscure and I feel many are getting hung up on some need to have a conclusive definition. This is what I went off of: (Yes, I googled it)

IMPLIED LINE:A line that is visually suggested by the arrangement of forms, lights and darks, or other elements in a work of art.

I dont know but that leaves it wide open for me. I go on whether it is a quality photo, has creativity and can be linked to the challenge in some way or another.

This seems more like an engineering site each challenge. OOOOps, I didnt say that;-)

thatcloudthere

Canon EOS-1D

10/25/2004 04:59:14 PM · #6

Agreed, Ivo...the problem is with the challenge description.

But (and it's a big BUT), I'm extremely happy with the Poverty and Music challenge descriptions because they simply provide a theme...

dipaulk

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM

10/25/2004 04:59:42 PM · #7

Originally posted by graphicfunk:

RHoldenSr

Canon EF 70-200mm f/4.0L USM

10/25/2004 05:11:43 PM · #8

Everyone could have just entered tree line shots!
That would have been real interesting.
LOL

Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L USM

10/25/2004 05:13:48 PM · #9

Originally posted by dipaulk:

Oh, Daniel. I hate to disagree with you. You're one of my heroes -- but a shadow can be an implied line if it is caused by elements that are so close together they cause the eye to see a line. We had a whole nother long thread on this before the challenge started, knowing that there would be a lot of discussion over what was meant by implied. I can see why you might say a shadow from a tree might form a true line rather than an implied line, but please don't rule out all lines formed by shadows as not fitting the implied category. Please, oh, please.

Originally posted by graphicfunk:
It seems this challenge is suffering just a bit. There seems to be a misunderstanding as to what an implied line is as opposed to a literal line.

The implied line is just that. The minds seeks to connect the dots to find the lines or to make whole of what is dispersed. Images can be put together to imply lines, but not all of these images qualify because not in all cases will the mind find the need to connect the dots.

A shadow is not a real line but the shadow can not be called an implied line. The same thing applies to sun rays breaking through clouds. These lines, while reflected are very literal and not at all implied.

It is often the case where implied lines are overlaid over literal lines and these images do qualify, for here you have the literal and implied. In short there is enough out there without trying to invent a situation in which to fit the concept.

An implied line is simply a broken line which the mind stitches together. A simple item in the kitchen like a grating utensil with many holes. The moment you look at it the mind finds a pattern of lines. Connecting the dots is another expression in the implied line.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
You are 100 percent right. However, the shadow must be so broken to represent the possibility of a connection. An example, a venetian blind on one's face will place diagonal lines but these lines are literal. If you put a grate or colander on the light source and let it fall on your face than you broken lines for which the mind finds the pattern.

That was my oversight and my apology, because in reality the broken line is almost present everywhere. Now, let us go back to the venetian blind example.
If you include the floor or wall and you see the end of the lines, there they will form a broken line perpenducular to the blades.

Ivo

10/25/2004 05:14:28 PM · #10

Are you talking evergreen, palm, broadleaf, living or dead. You really should be clear otherwise..................

eggv

Canon EOS-1D Mark IIn

10/25/2004 05:27:10 PM · #11

Main Entry: imâ�¢ply
Pronunciation: im-'plI
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): imâ�¢plied; imâ�¢plyâ�¢ing
Etymology: Middle English emplien, from Middle French emplier, from Latin implicare
1 obsolete : ENFOLD, ENTWINE
2 : to involve or indicate by inference, association, or necessary consequence rather than by direct statement
3 : to contain potentially
4 : to express indirectly
In our excitement to submit an entry in our first challenge we failed to open Websterâ��s to get the true definition of implied. Although our entry arguably contains implied lines, they are not the compositional theme. We apologize.

Message edited by author 2004-10-25 18:15:09.

Imagineer

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Canon EF-S 17-85mm f/4-5.6 IS USM

10/25/2004 05:29:52 PM · #12

Since this is a challenge I want to see shots where the Implied Lines are emphatically part of the shot, not too hidden behind a title or vaguely part of a composition.

Generally, it seems there are way too many literal shots here and very few that I would look at outside of the contest (particularly if without the title) and think 'this must have been for the Implied Lines' challenge!

blindjustice

Canon EOS-7D

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

10/25/2004 05:37:30 PM · #13

doesn't it seem obvious that "actual lines"(or expressed lines) are not implied? If its there, its there.that is easy(hopefully) to figure out.

The problem may arise when someone voting sees the actual lines and does not also see the implied lines. that would be very bad.

a box has actual lines.
thinking outside that box has neither actual nor implied lines.

Node

Nikon D300

Tamron SP AF 17-35mm f/2.8-4 Di LD Aspherical IF for Nikon

10/25/2004 05:41:54 PM · #14

Whatever people are thinking, I got it wrong. :( their vote is telling me that.

mocabela

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6

10/25/2004 05:56:34 PM · #15

Originally posted by blindjustice:

Mine has implied and actual. Judging by the score, people are only seeing the actual.

Then again, the shot's kind of boring :) I was expecting a crappy score, anyway, so I'm not surprised.

Gatorguy

Nikon D700

Nikon AF Zoom-Nikkor 70-200mm f/2.8 VR DG IF-ED

10/25/2004 06:08:53 PM · #16

I thought I might have a problem using an implied line that is visual in nature (I can't be more specific or I will give it away) but in any event, it's not a connection the voters are making. But I agree on one point that someone else made, if it looks like a line then it is one.

mrorange002

Nikon AF-S Nikkor 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6G DX VR

10/25/2004 06:13:01 PM · #17

an implied line is not just "simply a broken line which the mind stitches together"
An implied line can be where the line will be in the future. hence "implied" it's implied that the line will be there.
get it?

Judging by my score, I'm getting knocked because I actually "implied" the line.

myqyl

Nikon D3100

10/25/2004 07:32:35 PM · #18

Every photo has literal lines. At the very least, the border of the photo is a line... I'm hoping viewers will not see a literal line and vote 1 = "doesn't meet the challenge" before they spend at least a few seconds looking to see if there is also an implied line. But hoping voters will spend time viewing the image before voting is like hoping the sun will rise in the west so I can get a nice sunrise shot :)

Gauti

Canon EOS-7D

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

10/25/2004 07:49:18 PM · #19

Originally posted by ericlimon:

An implied line can be where the line will be in the future. hence "implied" it's implied that the line will be there.
get it?

or the past, where the line used to be. Right?

mrorange002

Sigma 18-250mm f/3.5-6.3 DC OS HSM

10/25/2004 08:19:53 PM · #20

Originally posted by Gauti:

Originally posted by ericlimon:
An implied line can be where the line will be in the future. hence "implied" it's implied that the line will be there.
get it?

or the past, where the line used to be. Right?

yes, it's implied that there is or will be a line. That is implied to me. you are implying a line.

Bud

Canon EOS-550D Rebel T2i

10/25/2004 08:30:16 PM · #21

I am glad I did not enter this challenge, exactly for this reason. I had a hard time figuring out a good implied lines photo, although I did take a few (I think). Here are a couple of my favorites, but since I could not figure out if they met the challenge, how would anyone else?

I would appreciate any thoughts or comments on these, if they would have qualified or not.

10/25/2004 09:10:52 PM · #22

Originally posted by ericlimon:

Originally posted by Gauti:

Originally posted by ericlimon:
An implied line can be where the line will be in the future. hence "implied" it's implied that the line will be there.
get it?

or the past, where the line used to be. Right?

yes, it's implied that there is or will be a line. That is implied to me. you are implying a line.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Just for fun let us explore the photographer implyimg a line. Let us take a string of bulbs across the image area. Now, when a light comes on it weill stay on. Next imagine that the bulbs will light from left to right, but one at a time. End result a string of lights which imply a line. To make it work let us put the lights off and light the first bulb. No line here yet. Now the second one lights and we do have a line. If we light three it will be a longer implied line. The question is who knows that the lights weill continue to light? Well, if we do this in daylight then the unlit bulbs will form an implied line.

Okay let us put the lights closer together and sprinkle each bulb with gun powder. Yse a Zippo to ignite the powder on the first one and the rest will follow suit. Now although this too is an image which makes the threat to bring these implied lines into play the image now graduates to an image that will imply the arrival of an implied line.

On second thought. This gives me a headache, why don't you explain it I have tried and fallen into the void.

mrorange002