Are Photos Getting Better? Voters More Discerning?

Canon EF 70-300mm f/4.5-5.6 DO IS USM

10/06/2004 11:15:07 AM · #26

Having been around for a while I have also seen the evolution of the number of participants, the quality of the photos and the change in voting habits. There are alot more excellent photographers but there are also many who are not so excellent. From my perspective I have seen that I have generally been voting higher on pictures than previously and contrarily my personal scores have gone down. That could be that I am no longer caring as much about my score and am enjoying it more! I enter pictures just because I want to even if I know they won't score highly. I know I could do them better, but just don't have the time and I still want to be an active member. So I am OK with that. I wonder if other members feel the same way.

cpanaioti

Canon EOS-40D

10/06/2004 11:34:34 AM · #27

Originally posted by PaulMdx:

Originally posted by cpanaioti:
If a shot was taken at f5.6 and someone thinks the shallow DOF doesn't work then that's what they think. Trying the shot at f22 to see the difference is the point.

One of the comments implies it would be better with a deeper DOF. I don't see that as suggesting to try it, I see that as (wrongly) saying how it should be done.

I think this is precisely the problem - how do we discern the different between someone making an abritrary suggestion, and someone that is actually right? (Not that the two can't overlap..)

That's just it. I don't look at any option as being right. I look at it as just an option regardless of what wording was used in the comment. I agree, for those trying to learn this can be frustrating. I just don't see there being a right and wrong way of photographing something, just different ways of doing it.

10/06/2004 11:48:36 AM · #28

Funny, but there is a picture in Master's challenge that has, imo, the same issue (DOF) as Jelly Baby Baguettes. I hope we get a chance to compare the shots when the challenge voting is over.

For me, I would really love to see an implementation of this idea on DPC: That is, a critique of a challenge comment. I would gladly put anyone of my comments up for people to dissect, tear apart and throw tomatoes at me and show me where my vision and judgements can be improved. This to me would greatly enhance my learning photography and the vision I need to become a good photographer.

10/06/2004 11:51:41 AM · #29

Originally posted by Olyuzi:

Funny, but there is a picture in Master's challenge that has, imo, the same issue (DOF) as Jelly Baby Baguettes. I hope we get a chance to compare the shots when the challenge voting is over.

Probably mine lol

10/06/2004 11:53:37 AM · #30

Originally posted by Olyuzi:

Along the same lines I have always wanted to have an 'open critique' of the winning photographs. Some of them in the past I have thought were not very good and all of them get scores from 1-10 so there is a lot of scope for debate.

Trouble is nobody wants to rip apart someone else work (not in public anyway)

bobgaither

Canon EOS-40D

10/06/2004 12:06:24 PM · #31

I don't know if the photographs are getting better but I really enjoyed this week's open chanllenge. I didn't give any tens for I had to give 11 of them instead of 9's. Most of my voting was on the higher end above 5 so that must say something for our photographers. Great job this time for the most part. One thing I do want to asked seeing I'm here and really ought to stay out of forumns for I usually get into trouble for saying what I feel but let me know? I've been marking photographers down for adding color saturation to black and white photos. I'm sure there are other ways to do it but the only way I know how is with a history brush or a black or dark colored brush and that is painting the color back in.
Not sure how you do it without spot editing. Please let me know so I can change the scores this week and from now on?

10/06/2004 12:10:50 PM · #32

Rip away at anyone of mine. I think that in order to really get the most out of a forum such as DPC we really need to get more in depth on the pictures we are rating. I would love to see one or two pics after each challenge that discuss the picture itself and the comments and why people thought what they did. We could hear from both the photographer and the commenters. I think people can be too sensitive about their photographs as if they literally gave birth to it. We need to start having thicker skins and start looking in depth at photographs, imo.

zeuszen

Canon EOS-1Ds Mark II

Canon EF-S 55-250mm f/4-5.6 IS

10/06/2004 12:13:19 PM · #33

Originally posted by jonpink:

...Trouble is nobody wants to rip apart someone else work (not in public anyway)

I have no qualms putting my fist through rotten wood. It's a dirty job -but character-building. ;-)

Canon EOS-60D

10/06/2004 12:15:25 PM · #34

Originally posted by bobgaither:

I've been marking photographers down for adding color saturation to black and white photos. I'm sure there are other ways to do it but the only way I know how is with a history brush or a black or dark colored brush and that is painting the color back in.
Not sure how you do it without spot editing. Please let me know so I can change the scores this week and from now on?

It can be done within basic editing rules. See this excellent tutorial Konador put together. I hope you revisit your votes and don't penalize folks for using a popular and effective technique that IS allowable. :o)

10/06/2004 12:21:23 PM · #35

Originally posted by zeuszen:

Originally posted by jonpink:
...Trouble is nobody wants to rip apart someone else work (not in public anyway)

I have no qualms putting my fist through rotten wood. It's a dirty job -but character-building. ;-)

Actually, Zeuszen, I'm not sure if you're aware but one of yours pics was already critiques before in a thread a while back. It pertained to Tabloid and Jon Pink took part in it, as well as, Magnetic9999 and John Setzler. I will see if I can find the thread.

Sorry, I meant to say the title is Tableau

Message edited by author 2004-10-06 12:27:54.

10/06/2004 12:33:14 PM · #36

Here's the thread of a post challenge discussion on Zeuszen's Tableau if anyone is interested in reading it. I think it's kind of like what we should be doing post challenges.

Tableau discussion

bobgaither

Canon EOS-40D

10/06/2004 12:54:07 PM · #37

Originally posted by laurielblack:

Originally posted by bobgaither:
I've been marking photographers down for adding color saturation to black and white photos. I'm sure there are other ways to do it but the only way I know how is with a history brush or a black or dark colored brush and that is painting the color back in.
Not sure how you do it without spot editing. Please let me know so I can change the scores this week and from now on?

It can be done within basic editing rules. See this excellent tutorial Konador put together. I hope you revisit your votes and don't penalize folks for using a popular and effective technique that IS allowable. :o)

Hi laurieblack Yes I go change those scores. I didn't even know if we could work in channels that will help me a lot in editing a bad channels from now on.

zeuszen

Canon EOS-1Ds Mark II

Nikon AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 ED

10/06/2004 01:03:39 PM · #38

> Olyuzi

I'm going to PM you, not wanting to divert the direction of this thread.

Natasha

Nikon D50

10/06/2004 02:33:54 PM · #39

I think that the general standard on this site has gone sky high! I joined over 2 year ago, but haven't had time to enter for about a year, whenever I look at the site I am pretty "scared" by the amazing shots being taken!

Blackdog

Canon EOS-20D

Sigma 24-70mm f/2.8 EX DG Macro for Canon

10/06/2004 04:16:09 PM · #40

I don't see how you have anything to be scared of after looking at your portfolio, especially your B&W, inspiring is all I can say.

whatdewuc

10/06/2004 11:19:21 PM · #41

Originally posted by jonpink:

[quote=Olyuzi]
For me, I would really love to see an implementation of this idea on DPC: That is, a critique of a challenge comment. I would gladly put anyone of my comments up for people to dissect, tear apart and throw tomatoes at me and show me where my vision and judgements can be improved.

A point/counterpoint type forum.

floyd

Canon EOS-5D

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

10/07/2004 05:08:27 AM · #42

Originally posted by jonpink:

Originally posted by floyd:
1. The opposite of a "masters challenge" - a challenge where you CANNOT enter if you've ever won a ribbon.

Oh my god - no please don't tell me your being serious..

;)

You bet I was serious. I was serious about all my suggestions.

Originally posted by jonpink:

For example I recently read the comments on this photo:

And noted that most people think it should be shot at F22 like a sweeping landscape. The didn't like the knife being soft at the end.

Now if that photographer didn't know better he would start shooting all his food shots that way, and well in my opinion and the opinion from a fellow professional food photographer that is pretty much the last thing you want to do with food shots.

Turns out the photographer knew better - I liked his comment:
"With regard to shallow depth of field comments, this was the look I was after (obviously otherwise I would have re-taken the shot with less!)"

Like you I sometimes get frustrated when voters and commenters don't "get" what I was trying to achieve with my picture. In my last submission, for example:

I got lots of comments that my lens was pointing too high. People didn't seem to understand that it was intentional and what I wanted to capture was the celebration - not the couple.

But then I remember that whenever I take a picture I must consider my AUDIENCE. If I'm submitting to DPC then I must accept that there are all levels of ability and understanding on the site. If you want your audience to like a picture then you must take it with their views and abilities in mind. If, however, you want to take photos for people like yourself then you must simply accept that the vast majority of the public will not appreciate your efforts.

You must choose your audience and judge the success of your work by the response of only your intended viewers.

John

Message edited by author 2004-10-07 05:09:31.

kiwinick

Sony DSLR-A550

Sony DT 18-70mm f/3.5-5.6 Aspherical ED Zoom Lens for Sony Alpha

10/17/2004 04:52:13 AM · #43

What a good reasoned lot of Ideas you have. I agree with them all. perhaps the powers that be will take them on board.

Originally posted by floyd:

I think two things have happened to the standard. First of all the general standard has gone up. There are still a few dull snapshots but far less than there used to be.

Secondly there are now a lot more REALLY good photographers here. Our top end has gone up considerably.

Given these two observations I can't help wondering if the higher standards don't scare off some of the more amateur members. I think a lot of them see the amazing quality pictures on the front page every day and feel like they can't possibly compete.

I'd like to see us investigating ways to get some of those lurkers to take part more. Possible solutions:

1. The opposite of a "masters challenge" - a challenge where you CANNOT enter if you've ever won a ribbon.
2. A come-back challenge where people are asked to recreate a photo they've taken before in order to see how much better they can make it look from last time.
3. Perhaps some new awards for highest placing newcomers or biggest improvement in score.
4. More focus on the tutorial elements of the site perhaps with associated "newbie challenges". For example we might write a tutorial on shallow DoF and then invite entries from anyone with an average score below 6 to enter a newbie shallow DoF challenge.
5. Consider "divisions" in order to split the real god-like photographers from the amateurs. Anyone winning 2 ribbons in a division could be promoted to the next division up for example.

Just some ideas.

John

DaisyGirl

Canon EOS-300D Rebel

12/10/2004 04:16:45 PM · #44

As a newbie to both this site and to digital photography, I would love to see more challenge divisions to even out the playing field.

I have to admit, I have also been intimidated to vote on photos because I don't have the technical knowledge that others have, and I'm sure some of my comments have probably been in the "Things that make you go, hmmm" category. However, I do know what I like and don't like about a photo, and thus I'm able to voice an opinion, but perhaps shouldn't be offering advice.

That said, if I were building my "perfect" site (and I do realize I'm not), here's what I would do:

1. Implement a rating system to evaluate each photographer's knowledge and skill. This could be determined by a questionnaire AND contest results (ie: # of ribbons), or simply be based on the honor system. Possible levels might include Novice, Basic, Intermediate, Advanced, Professional, etc. Users could be allowed to "re-take" the quiz after winning a ribbon or two, for example, to move to the next level.

2. Integrate this rating into profiles and voting results. Then, comments can be weighed accordingly.

3. Allow newbies to "mock" vote until they're comfortable in real voting. They could compare their critiques with those of more experienced members. (Or, only allow newbies to mock vote until they earn a ribbon).

CONTINUED IN NEXT POST

DaisyGirl

Canon EOS-300D Rebel

12/10/2004 04:17:43 PM · #45

CONTINUED FROM PREVIOUS POST:

4a. Open challenges to everyone (don't panic yet). Allow entries into the skill level determined in #1 above, and allow voting on each level to include only that level and above. Award divisional ribbons. This ensures competition with peers. ~OR~

4b. Allow newbies to submit their best photo every couple of weeks for critique only by non-newbies.

As the site grows, it seems this structure or some of its components might work well. Or maybe NONE of these ideas are any good. :-) I promise I will not be offended even if all of them are shot down. I simply wanted to share what's been bouncing around in my head for a while as a fresh set of eyes.

Tokina AF 12-24mm f/4.0 AT-X Pro DX

12/10/2004 04:25:05 PM · #46

See you've dug up an old thread daisy :D

Good in principle, but the trouble with your scheme is whom decides how good each applicant / photographer is. And a quiz could just be researched, all the knowledge in the world doesn't equate to a high-class photographer.

Beagleboy

Canon EOS-30D

12/10/2004 04:37:08 PM · #47

I don

Imagineer

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Canon EF-S 17-85mm f/4-5.6 IS USM

12/10/2004 05:13:32 PM · #48

Photos are still shite - editing is getting better.
; )