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 09/28/2004 01:36:36 PM · #76
Originally posted by Gringo:
Thanks Clubjuggle!

I have a curious feeling that the photos in this challenge might be viewed and voted on much differently than other challenges.

There wont be hundreds of entries in this challenge.
I think each photograph will be viewed in a way that challenges the viewer as to why it was submitted. Just that by itself makes this a worthwhile experiment. Just knowing there is respectable talent behind every entry might slow the speed voters down and encourage them to stop and study them all. Photos will likely be viewed considerably longer in this challenge during the voting. I know I will be viewing them all more carefully. I wouldn’t be surprised to see the combination of winning elements in this challenge to be very different from the challenges that rely on first impression punch and wow impact.

This should be interesting.

We have to be careful though ... the voters just might become habituated to this sort of thing, and then what would we complain about : )
 09/28/2004 01:40:58 PM · #77
Originally posted by kiwiness:
Vampires are real! I got the chance to photograph a real one, although I was scared to pieces... This is one of frumoaznicul's friends from down in Transylvania :) This was going to be my master's challenge photo but I chickened out because it doesn't have that "DPC kick" to it :))) The first places will be landscape shots anyway, so unless I find a decent landscape somewhere around here in the next few days I guess I'll be sitting this one out. But then again I still have two more days :)


A macro of those teeth might prove an interesting "landscape" ... one branch of my family originated in Romania, but I don't know which part. While I don't care that much for crosses, I can eat garlic with only the usual problems ...
 09/28/2004 01:49:28 PM · #78
I still feel the outcome is very uncertain and unpredictable. If you feel your image will not be top 10 in any other contest, then be careful with this challenge. If it is an emotive shot..the viewer wants to see "the emotive" shot not a viable contender with flaws. The same thing applies to any other field..members are expecting the very best and yes, images that shine and those that pull you in will have a better chance than those are may be artistic, but too subtle or too esoteric.

For example, I put up a wonderful image...but I am replacing it because althought superb, I do not feel it rises to this type of challenge. I sit here and I am at a loss because now both images, compete in their own camps. What to do? I think I will expand the agony right to the end.

This is because all entries should represent the best of each entrant.
 09/28/2004 01:53:38 PM · #79
Originally posted by GeneralE:
A macro of those teeth might prove an interesting "landscape" ... one branch of my family originated in Romania, but I don't know which part. While I don't care that much for crosses, I can eat garlic with only the usual problems ...


That means you must have vampire genes in you somewhere mista General!
 09/28/2004 01:55:17 PM · #80
Originally posted by graphicfunk:
For example, I put up a wonderful image...but I am replacing it because althought superb, I do not feel it rises to this type of challenge. I sit here and I am at a loss because now both images, compete in their own camps. What to do?


Hence this thread's name "dilemma"... I too am in the same boat!
 09/28/2004 02:12:42 PM · #81
Originally posted by graphicfunk:
This is because all entries should represent the best of each entrant.


I suspect that very few photographers entering this challenge would consider the entry their "best work." While I do expect to see some excellent images, I don't think the challenge results will be much different than the top third of any ordinary Free Study. After all, most of the 'masters' enter those, too.

I haven't even had time to enter the standard challenges lately, and I'll be struggling to shoot anything at all by Thursday (much less my "best"). I'll be sorely disappointed if I can't get a shot in. :-(
 09/28/2004 02:15:07 PM · #82
The best they took within 30 days. I agree with you, but I also think it's important to remember this is just one challenge. Winning it doesn't make you "the best of the best".

There's only 3 members here that have 100+ entries to challenges and still kept an overall average over a 6. A brown ribbon in this challenge for any of them doesn't make them "the worst of the best" ... see what I mean?

Originally posted by graphicfunk:
all entries should represent the best of each entrant.
09/28/2004 02:22:41 PM · #83
Originally posted by hopper:
The best they took within 30 days. I agree with you, but I also think it's important to remember this is just one challenge. Winning it doesn't make you "the best of the best".

There's only 3 members here that have 100+ entries to challenges and still kept an overall average over a 6. A brown ribbon in this challenge for any of them doesn't make them "the worst of the best" ... see what I mean?

Originally posted by graphicfunk:
all entries should represent the best of each entrant.


*********************************************************************
Of course, you are right. But the object of this challenge as opposed to the others is to push the envelope a bit further. While it will remain as another challenge, yet I have a suspicion that this challenge will excell above the others simply because the just acceptable or just passable image will be in very low numbers.
 09/28/2004 02:59:12 PM · #84
Please humor me and my ignorance . . I can't see the full listing since I am not eligle - but I wanted to know if all of DPC will be voting on this, just members, or just participants. Thanks!

typo edit

Message edited by author 2004-09-28 14:59:35.
 09/28/2004 03:04:40 PM · #85
Originally posted by e301:
The issue, of course, is that this 'masters' challenge will be voted on by every member of the site: thus it is no more a 'masters'' challenge than a restricted entry Open Challenge.


Message edited by author 2004-09-28 15:05:07.
 09/28/2004 03:57:50 PM · #86
So really it is just a "free study" challenge restricted to a few of the members, not such a big difference really just that only a select few can participate... We could have also made it for anyone with an average score above 7.000 or for anyone who has made more than 1000 comments or whatever.... But really , I think it is a good idea and I am keen to see what it turns out, maybe it is a good idea.
 09/28/2004 04:00:52 PM · #87
Originally posted by scalvert:
I'll be sorely disappointed if I can't get a shot in. :-(

as shall many others...
 09/28/2004 04:19:36 PM · #88
I think it's a good idea. I wasn't eligable when this challenge started, and it made me wanna try even harder to get a ribbon to be able to enter. The same happened to friends of mine here, who actually entered more challenges then normal in hope of ribbons.

About voting/styles/art, it's just a challenge where a bunch of people who have 2 or more ribbons compete. You can't take one piece of art up agains another and judge them side by side (I think), but you can enter an image you like, and have the entire dpc communite vote on what they like. Will be fun to enter, and if I get a brown ribbon, at least I got it in the Masters challenge, if I do well then that's good too.

I can't wait until the challenge starts. Good luck everyone, and for all you that aren't eligable, good luck on getting those ribbons you need to enter Masters II.. :-)

09/28/2004 06:18:40 PM · #89
I understand Setzler's frustration and reading his other comments and his interview it appears he is railing against the commercialization and pop culture of photography at the expense of true emotive works or meaningful art.

I don't mean to put words in his mouth, and not to pick on one shot or another, but although most winners are technically good, there seems to be a void of meaning at the top in exchange for in your face, blatant challenge meeting photos. Most of the winners are not works of art any more than Ashley Simpsons new hit song is a work of musical art. Its played in tune and her voice is not bad, but it is contrived, overproduced bullshit and its laughable really. Most of the photos at the top, and I say most because some are fantastic and receive their rightly place, some at the top are meaningless and flashy hotel art or documentary magazine pictures, or worse, they are just someone showing off a stupid technique ie, let me set an object on fire while filming a water droplet misting over it. Thats Ashley SImpson. For more of an analogy, the Pogues were an ugly, raucous Irish band that was brimming with street cred.

There have been other "studies" showing that voters dig blue colors and subject which are medium sized and taken at weird angles. so be it.

Having ribbons means you have to be a technically good and popular photographer, it doesn't mean you are making better art.
"Master" of the site and "master" of the popular challenge.

I happen to like Setzler's style, portfolio and mindset. At least he questions things.I think I trust that whatever he wants to enter will do well against any of the other "masters."

One thing that particularly ticked me off is the implication that somehow, someway, a "master" is the only one qualified to critique the other "masters'" work. This is really inflamatory. You can value an opinion from a good photographer more than a lousy one, but the voting and comments form a "master" are not guaranteed to be anything special or worth more- unless you want only comments from a "master" of how to win on DPC. Don't confuse that with a comment from a master of "photographic art."-(just for the redord- thats not me I don't claim to be a master of anything- but they do exist in on this site) and isn't that all what this is about, photographic art? this isn't a camera tchnique or gadget demonstration site is it?

SO I guess I say , make art Mr. Setzler. Don't be Ashley simpson with a number one hit single at the expense of prostituting out the art form, be the Pogues! Be an unpopular Van gogh instead of a popular Thomas Kincade.

Message edited by author 2004-09-28 18:28:17.
 09/30/2004 01:38:44 AM · #90

"Anchors Aweigh"

This is my best/favorite photo of September.
 09/30/2004 01:49:42 AM · #91
Originally posted by blindjustice:

Thank you, thank you.
 09/30/2004 04:44:13 AM · #92
I've been having problems deciding what to submit for this challenge, and I'm afraid to say that I'm not entering what I consider to be my best picture, but the one with the most impact which I think will get the best score. I just don't trust the voters with my subtle, moody shot versus my high-impact colourful shot. Like John, I think this challenge would have been more helpful for the 'masters' if only 'masters' could vote on this challenge.
I'll now steady myself for a barrage of disagreements...
 09/30/2004 05:09:02 AM · #93
I am going to go with what I want to enter and hope that it does well I do not have the camera and equipment to compete with the top photographers on this site I can only do 'MY' best
I hope that MY best will do well. I know I have grown in my photography and I know I could achieve better if I had the equipment But I am pleased with my submission
So that's what its all about isnt it? So be kind to each other and Good luck to everyone
 09/30/2004 06:55:23 AM · #94
Originally posted by BobsterLobster:
I've been having problems deciding what to submit for this challenge, and I'm afraid to say that I'm not entering what I consider to be my best picture, but the one with the most impact which I think will get the best score. I just don't trust the voters with my subtle, moody shot versus my high-impact colourful shot. Like John, I think this challenge would have been more helpful for the 'masters' if only 'masters' could vote on this challenge.
I'll now steady myself for a barrage of disagreements...


Why not enter the moody shot and challenge, us, the voters, to think outside the box a little?

You are being given an oppotunity here. You may use it, or squander it, at your preference.

-Terry
 09/30/2004 06:57:02 AM · #95
what would be the benefit of only "masters" voting?
Because the person has won a challenge here?
You can look at my entries and my portfolio and sure- my photos are not good in a technical or artistic sense. I admit that. But for God's Sake the accomplishment of winning two challenges here versus winning zero challenges is not the end all and be all of who should have "critical" merit. DOn't kid yourself into thinking that this site is anything more than a pleasant distraction from real life. Because, when you boil it down...

many of the winning shots are gimmicky
many are chance lucky captures that fit the challenge dead on
many are technical and not much more
many are the result of having a studio and models
many people won challenges win the infancy of the site when only a small amount of people entered
Many people got a ribbon only after a dq of shots judged higher ...
and the list goes on.

Don't get me wrong- you should be proud of yourself- and more proud of yourself than me, a paradigm amatuer- clowning around adn submitting crap;

but don't be toooooo proud. You might be able to learn something, or better yet, understand things better with comments from those you consider "less" than a peer.

09/30/2004 07:30:24 AM · #96
Originally posted by train:
I am going to go with what I want to enter and hope that it does well I do not have the camera and equipment to compete with the top photographers on this site I can only do 'MY' best
I hope that MY best will do well. I know I have grown in my photography and I know I could achieve better if I had the equipment But I am pleased with my submission
So that's what its all about isnt it? So be kind to each other and Good luck to everyone


My jaw hit the floor when I read your post... just look at the top scoring photos for your camera, and reconsider your excuses!
 09/30/2004 07:33:38 AM · #97
Originally posted by blindjustice:
Because, when you boil it down...

many of the winning shots are gimmicky
many are chance lucky captures that fit the challenge dead on
many are technical and not much more
many are the result of having a studio and models
many people won challenges win the infancy of the site when only a small amount of people entered
Many people got a ribbon only after a dq of shots judged higher ...
and the list goes on.

This is so not true.
 09/30/2004 07:34:43 AM · #98
Originally posted by blindjustice:
what would be the benefit of only "masters" voting?
Because the person has won a challenge here?
You can look at my entries and my portfolio and sure- my photos are not good in a technical or artistic sense. I admit that. But for God's Sake the accomplishment of winning two challenges here versus winning zero challenges is not the end all and be all of who should have "critical" merit. DOn't kid yourself into thinking that this site is anything more than a pleasant distraction from real life. Because, when you boil it down...

many of the winning shots are gimmicky
many are chance lucky captures that fit the challenge dead on
many are technical and not much more
many are the result of having a studio and models
many people won challenges win the infancy of the site when only a small amount of people entered
Many people got a ribbon only after a dq of shots judged higher ...
and the list goes on.

Don't get me wrong- you should be proud of yourself- and more proud of yourself than me, a paradigm amatuer- clowning around adn submitting crap;

but don't be toooooo proud. You might be able to learn something, or better yet, understand things better with comments from those you consider "less" than a peer.


I completely agree, and I hope my post didn't sound arrogant. I think most people eligible for this competition will agree that their ribbons were more the result of luck than anything else. I completely agree that ribbons are not a true indication of skill or worth. Nonetheless, I would rather have my photo voted on by this arbitrary group of people than the general masses, because I believe that they will have a better eye. That's why I'm submitting a photo with what I think is mass appeal... and I don't understand why I would be squandering this 'opportunity' by doing so. What is the opportunity I'm not getting by trying to score well?
Bob
 09/30/2004 07:54:51 AM · #99
Originally posted by BobsterLobster:
Originally posted by train:
I am going to go with what I want to enter and hope that it does well I do not have the camera and equipment to compete with the top photographers on this site I can only do 'MY' best
I hope that MY best will do well. I know I have grown in my photography and I know I could achieve better if I had the equipment But I am pleased with my submission
So that's what its all about isnt it? So be kind to each other and Good luck to everyone


My jaw hit the floor when I read your post... just look at the top scoring photos for your camera, and reconsider your excuses!


Oops, many of them are by you! Judging by your portfolio, I think you've got an excellent chance of scoring well with your camera... but I think I can understand more your frustration at outgrowing it.
 09/30/2004 08:43:02 AM · #100
I think the Masters challenge should be mandatory - with the penalty of a disqualification from the next challenge if they don't submit - and only the Masters can vote.

Then stats should be posted for this challenge only displaying each Master's voting average.

That would really make things interesting.

PS. have you noticed how many 'Masters' seem to feel awkward about calling themselves a 'master' and put 'master' in parenthesis? : )
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