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09/05/2004 02:26:46 PM · #126 |
nico_blue:
I guess it then takes us to the question that's been asked here a few times before, whether you score an image hgiher because you think it's from a certain photographer who happens to be on your favourites list.
I understand what you are saying. That could very well happen.
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09/05/2004 02:39:42 PM · #127 |
I wonder if each of the entries will be the type of shot we have come to associate with different photographers. Jacko/macro...and so on. If they don't step out of their self defined speciality, their photos will be recongnized and this will end up being a popularity contest. I think that could leave some of the contestants feeling uneasy.
As far as a theme goes, these guys have proved that they can understand and deliver on a theme. It's sorta a given since they have the ribbons to show their ability to please the masses. |
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09/05/2004 03:14:57 PM · #128 |
One thing, brought up here, that i hadn't considered: everyone voting will know that each and every photograph has been taken by someone capable of winning at least 2 ribbons here. This should at least make all voters think that every shot was taken deliberately, with thought. That will be a good advance.
It remains that everyone submitting will know that the whole site is going to vote on it, and so will submit images to please the whole site.
Some posts here presume (and I'm not going to go back through them and point them out), that the appreciation and understanding of photography as a viewer does not have to be learned just as thoroughly as does the taking of photographs itself.
E
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09/05/2004 03:29:12 PM · #129 |
Originally posted by pcody:
I wonder if each of the entries will be the type of shot we have come to associate with different photographers. Jacko/macro...and so on. If they don't step out of their self defined speciality, their photos will be recongnized and this will end up being a popularity contest. I think that could leave some of the contestants feeling uneasy.
As far as a theme goes, these guys have proved that they can understand and deliver on a theme. It's sorta a given since they have the ribbons to show their ability to please the masses. |
Yes, the possibly diminished anonymity has been discussed, and must be considered as a factor when evaluating this experiment.
While these photographers have shown they can fulfill the requirements of a challenge description, site management (that includes myself) has also demonstrated the ability to issue dscriptions which are screwed-up. The strategy of minimizing the number of variables in an experiment is a standard technique which I think was appropriately-used here, especially considering the hasty nature of its creation. |
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09/05/2004 03:42:06 PM · #130 |
Okay, I've had a couple of days to think about this. I'll lay everything out logically and clearly.
I have 4 ribbons, but disagree with the timing of this challenge.
I think the idea for this challenge is excellent, and will be good for the morale of the people here who take truly excellent shots that we all learn from. We all need to nurture the people at the top, who provide us with inspiration, advice, and raise the bar for us. I don't count myself as one of these people.
Just because people aren't promised regular free challenges doesn not mean that everyone will automatically stop wanting them. I've laid out my reasons for having them plenty of times, and have taken on board some of the opposing arguments. Although in most respects the site council do an excellent and thankless job, the attitude of some of the council towards the people they are supposed to be representing is suspect. Just because some people want to see things improved or changed does not make them 'whingers'. Just because people can get demanding, does not mean that certain members of the council should publicly state that the more demanding people get, the less chance they will have of getting something. That is just outrageous behaviour from people who are supposed to be representing us all. If this is a site run by people who don't care about the needs and desires of the masses, and this is publicly stated, then we should all just accept whatever happens, not complain and accept whatever we're given. However, I don't believe this is the ethos here, however much some people would like to remain obedient and well-behaved sheep. I would like this community to feel like a democracy, with the site council acting as representatives of the masses. My perception is that this is very much not the case, and the council decide what happens here amongst themselves without taking into consideration public opinion. This is why I can get heated in other forum threads... not because I want my own way, but because I am under the impression that 'we' don't matter to the people who are making the decisions. I believe it is this way of dealing with people by some members of the council that has resulted in so much hostility.
As a side note, it was mentioned above that if we had regular free challenges, people would be encouraged to cheat. If they were every month, how would they cheat? On another note, I want to remove a possible argument against free challenges. People are quick to say that we receive our money's worth, and indeed we do (in fact, I would be prepared to pay more)... but I want to understand how much extra work it would involve having monthly free challenges. My understanding is not a lot, and I'm sure there would be plenty of people willing to take on any additional work involved.
Maybe some people are upset that they are excluded in an 'elitist' way, and I personally don't agree that this is a bad thing on a competitive website. However, I do believe that people are more upset because they want to see more happening here and are excluded. I don't think people should be condemned for 'whining' by expressing their opinions. And I don't think that we should be seen as ungrateful aggressive miscreants because we want to see more happen from this site, which seems to be easily achievable.
Maybe we should have some polls, so we can all feel that the council actually care about what we all think?
I hope we can all carry on being friendly and civil to each other, and that includes the people who are quick to judge the people they consider to be 'complaining'! |
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09/05/2004 03:59:51 PM · #131 |
| I'd be curious to know exactly what it is that makes you feel like we are deciding things amongst ourselves without considering public opinion. |
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09/05/2004 04:30:03 PM · #132 |
Originally posted by mk:
I'd be curious to know exactly what it is that makes you feel like we are deciding things amongst ourselves without considering public opinion. |
I think this quote from GeneralE sums up what I'm talking about:
'I think the admins are plenty busy, and while they are always looking for ways to improve the site, they are under no OBLIGATION to provide any more than they were at the time your signed up -- anything else is a bonus to be appreciated by those who get it, not a right to be demanded by all ... they are also more likely to implement user "suggestions" than to give in to user demands ... personally, if I was in charge of writing the site code, I'd schedule a long vacation after reading this thread ... one of the lessons even my second-grader already knows is "You Nag, We Lag."'
Not exactly a great example of representing the masses IMO. GeneralE, please let me know if you think I have quoted you out of context. |
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09/05/2004 04:49:49 PM · #133 |
Originally posted by BobsterLobster:
Originally posted by mk:
I'd be curious to know exactly what it is that makes you feel like we are deciding things amongst ourselves without considering public opinion. |
I think this quote from GeneralE sums up what I'm talking about:
'I think the admins are plenty busy, and while they are always looking for ways to improve the site, they are under no OBLIGATION to provide any more than they were at the time your signed up -- anything else is a bonus to be appreciated by those who get it, not a right to be demanded by all ... they are also more likely to implement user "suggestions" than to give in to user demands ... personally, if I was in charge of writing the site code, I'd schedule a long vacation after reading this thread ... one of the lessons even my second-grader already knows is "You Nag, We Lag."'
Not exactly a great example of representing the masses IMO. GeneralE, please let me know if you think I have quoted you out of context. |
Of course you have, Bob, like I did last night! |
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09/05/2004 05:22:09 PM · #134 |
I'd be curious to know exactly what it is that makes you feel like we are deciding things amongst ourselves without considering public opinion.
Yep, I screwed the pooch on this one. I completely missed when you asked for public opinion. :P
Message edited by author 2004-09-05 17:22:42. |
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09/05/2004 05:29:30 PM · #135 |
Originally posted by BobsterLobster:
Originally posted by mk:
I'd be curious to know exactly what it is that makes you feel like we are deciding things amongst ourselves without considering public opinion. |
I think this quote from GeneralE sums up what I'm talking about:
'I think the admins are plenty busy, and while they are always looking for ways to improve the site, they are under no OBLIGATION to provide any more than they were at the time your signed up -- anything else is a bonus to be appreciated by those who get it, not a right to be demanded by all ... they are also more likely to implement user "suggestions" than to give in to user demands ... personally, if I was in charge of writing the site code, I'd schedule a long vacation after reading this thread ... one of the lessons even my second-grader already knows is "You Nag, We Lag."'
Not exactly a great example of representing the masses IMO. GeneralE, please let me know if you think I have quoted you out of context. |
This is a fairly recent reponse from one Site Council member which doesn't even address his actual position on this site, but how he would feel were he the admin, having just received two solid days of complaints after an attempt at improvement. The way you state your complaint, both in this post and a previous one, you make it seem like a long-standing issue wherein the Site Council has repeatedly failed to act in the best interest of the membership. If this is truly how you feel, I'd be interested in hearing some examples. I'm thinking in terms of actual application of decision here... |
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09/05/2004 05:30:55 PM · #136 |
Originally posted by deafwolf:
I'd be curious to know exactly what it is that makes you feel like we are deciding things amongst ourselves without considering public opinion.
Yep, I screwed the pooch on this one. I completely missed when you asked for public opinion. :P |
Yes, yes...I've noticed people reticent to offer up their opinion without being asked around here.
Edited to say: Considering public opinion is not the same as asking permission before ever single thing that ever occurs on this site.
Message edited by author 2004-09-05 17:37:44. |
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09/05/2004 05:37:04 PM · #137 |
Yes, yes...I've noticed people reticent to offer up their opinion without being asked around here.
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09/05/2004 06:05:09 PM · #138 |
I really want to compete in this challenge,
I guess I'll just have to win a couple of ribbons :)
I'd better get to work!
(maybe we should ALL try harder)
Message edited by author 2004-09-05 18:05:38.
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09/05/2004 06:05:33 PM · #139 |
Originally posted by mk:
Originally posted by deafwolf:
I'd be curious to know exactly what it is that makes you feel like we are deciding things amongst ourselves without considering public opinion.
Yep, I screwed the pooch on this one. I completely missed when you asked for public opinion. :P |
Yes, yes...I've noticed people reticent to offer up their opinion without being asked around here.
Edited to say: Considering public opinion is not the same as asking permission before ever single thing that ever occurs on this site. |
Hmmm, I'll post some considered, calm and rational examples tomorrow. Hopefully in a more open environment. I never said that permission should be sought before implementing anything... in fact, I see this challenge as a positive step. I just think all the admin are too busy being defensive to see this. |
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09/05/2004 06:13:59 PM · #140 |
Posting this in a tired, frustrated way...
You know what? I don't care anymore. I've been worn out by this. I can enter this challenge anyway, so what do I care? Why should I bother trying to stand up for people without ribbons? Why should I bother trying to make this site better? It's too much effort. You win. You're right, I'm wrong. Anyone who doesn't agree with the way the site is run is just whinging. Everything is fine the way it is, and can stay the same way for the next 20 years. Whatever the site admins decide to do is fine. I have better things to do with my life. I will try to never post anything again which disagrees with anybody. I can't believe I offered unasked for opinions. Well done everybody!! Lots of pats on the back all round... |
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09/05/2004 06:26:30 PM · #141 |
Originally posted by BobsterLobster:
Posting this in a tired, frustrated way...
You know what? I don't care anymore. I've been worn out by this. |
Remarkably similar statement to what you quoted me as saying ... : ) |
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09/05/2004 06:27:55 PM · #142 |
Originally posted by BobsterLobster:
Posting this in a tired, frustrated way...
You know what? I don't care anymore. I've been worn out by this. I can enter this challenge anyway, so what do I care? Why should I bother trying to stand up for people without ribbons? Why should I bother trying to make this site better? It's too much effort. You win. You're right, I'm wrong. Anyone who doesn't agree with the way the site is run is just whinging. Everything is fine the way it is, and can stay the same way for the next 20 years. Whatever the site admins decide to do is fine. I have better things to do with my life. I will try to never post anything again which disagrees with anybody. I can't believe I offered unasked for opinions. Well done everybody!! Lots of pats on the back all round... |
Bob, the thing is... we are growing. We won't stay the same. I am not sure how long you have been here, but this place has changed so much since I joined 2 1/2 years ago. And it has been for the better. There has been folks complain and state their oppinion about how bad the change would be, but look at dpc now. This place rocks! Change isn't easy for anyone, but we have to start somewhere and dpc will probably have alot more changes as the years go by and alot of folks are going to do the same thing as they are today.
Let's all try to let this happen and see what the outcome is. What do you all say? Truths for now?
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09/05/2004 06:34:10 PM · #143 |
Let's all try to let this happen and see what the outcome is. What do you all say? Truths for now?
Naaaahhhh...  |
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09/05/2004 09:27:01 PM · #144 |
Well this sure raised a stink!!I think that alot of people really care about this site and that is why they voice their opinions. One thing for sure,DPC is a great website!Drew and Langdon Rock!And for the site council thanks for all your hard work,nobody said being King was easy!LOL
Neil |
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09/05/2004 09:36:31 PM · #145 |
Ohhh ... It's Lonely at the Top
--Randy Newman |
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09/05/2004 10:28:58 PM · #146 |
Originally posted by ClubJuggle:
This does not limit participation. We're not removing anything. We've added a challenge (and a test challenge at that) which gives 125 people an extra challenge they can enter, and all members an extra challenge on which they can vote and comment.
-Terry |
I said it once before that no one on SC or neither of the Admins ever promised a periodic free study challenge! It's not in the TOS and it's not listed in the members benefit. You can NOT lose something that you DON'T have...
And do you remember way back in December when we had the first periodic free challenge? That was a test also. Many of us didn't want the editing rules changed, but we lived through the trial challenge and the site ended up better for it. How about we give this one a chance also!
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09/06/2004 06:02:02 AM · #147 |
Originally posted by TooCool:
I said it once before that no one on SC or neither of the Admins ever promised a periodic free study challenge! It's not in the TOS and it's not listed in the members benefit. You can NOT lose something that you DON'T have...
And do you remember way back in December when we had the first periodic free challenge? That was a test also. Many of us didn't want the editing rules changed, but we lived through the trial challenge and the site ended up better for it. How about we give this one a chance also! |
Perhaps you weren't listening when I said:
'Just because people aren't promised regular free challenges doesn not mean that everyone will automatically stop wanting them.'
But I'm tired of stating my opinions as clearly as I can, only for people to keep missing the point, and for people to keep getting their backs up.
I have always loved this site, there's much that is very, very good here... but it is in my nature to want to improve things and to become involved in helping things to progress forwards. In the 1.5 years I've been here, not much has happened. We've had the rules changed for member challenges, and that was a very good thing. We've had occasional free studies, and that was a very good thing. The idea of a masters challenge is a very good thing. 2 out of 3 of these have required virtually no recoding. I don't use DPCPrints, so any changes here have not affected me. Just how many of the site improvement suggestions posted in the forums ever make it onto DPC? I think that some people have missed the point of my previous posts... I think change is great, the council do not have to get public opinion before every change, and believe it or not, I really don't care that much about free challenges. However, it's because I love and care about this site so much, that I speak up and get involved. I try and be a positive prescence at DPC, I'll get involved in all the forums, answer questions, critique photos, vote on photos, and generally help people in the best way I can. I hope people will remember me here on DPC more for these things, than for forum threads such as this. But, as the previous sentence will imply, I've had enough of trying to be positive here. I'm going to take my passion and ability to care to somewhere else where it's going to be appreciated. I know when I'm banging my head against a wall, and that wall is DPC. I'm still going to enter my photos in the challenges, but that will be the extent of my involvement here. I'll leave the discussions about the future of DPC to those who have the stamina, or those who will accept anything.
Take care guys,
Bob |
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09/06/2004 07:12:42 AM · #148 |
Holy Smokes! Go away for a few days to dry out and another dam breaks...
I'm sure not everyone was thrilled in 1933 when Major League Baseball introduced a new idea...the All-Star Game.
Baseball's sparkling new contribution to the glamour and romance of American sports, the All-Star Game, made its debut at 1:15 on the sweltering afternoon of July 6, 1933, at Chicago's Comiskey Park. There were 47,595 fans in the stands, all eager to see a novel concept in action -- action that would be performed by the most glittering assemblage of ballplaying talent ever brought together on the diamond at one time. More here
Like everything else, it's had its ups and downs and copycats, but, to a large degree, it still represents the best of the best, put on display for the enjoyment of everyone else.
I personally can't wait to see the results of some of my favorite photographers. Not only do they capture great images, but they also are keen competitors. It will be fun to see if Shannon can come up with a set up shot that can best one of Danny's landscapes.
If we're lucky, this competition could produce a complete collection of faves, shots to learn from, shots to emulate. I just hope that all those who can participate will not only participate, but will put in the effort that is expected of them.
Good luck to all,
Skip
Message edited by author 2004-09-06 07:13:52. |
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09/06/2004 12:18:07 PM · #149 |
i think this is a good idea.
I don't have two ribbons but now i want to try even harder to get there to compete in these challenges. I think it creates an arena for those who have won many times to compete and fear coming in the BOTTOM 10. Good idea, i think it will be fun. |
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09/07/2004 09:28:50 PM · #150 |
Originally posted by ClubJuggle:
In each challenge, someone must end up "worst of the best." |
Uh, seeing the list of possible contestants, I can say with some certainty, that would be me. Or is that, "best of the worst"? :)
*Still pondering how I can possibly live up to the title "master"...* |
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