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08/10/2004 11:13:43 PM · #126 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by Mousie:
I'm a bit curious about why the prevailing attitude here seems to be that influencing someone to go out and re-shoot a photo because they decide it's not good enough for the challenge after seeing some out-takes is a Bad Thing. |
Because people are not being treated equally. If we ALL got the chance to get some pre-challenge advice from the DPC community it might be OK, but the general way the challenges have worked is that we each try to come up with an independent idea and execution, and if we "share" for the purpose of getting pre-submission advice, it is from family or through links or private messages, not by posting images in the public forums, before the submission deadline. That tactic is a relatively recent development, and introduces an element of unfairness.
If we are going to run this as a contest then let's do that, and stop what amounts to multiple submissions by some members. Otherwise, we should just start a new gallery each week with everyone getting one submission, and discussion starting immediately. But if you're going to have voting, let's try and make sure everyone gets an equal chance. I think everyone should get to have one on-topic photo discussed here each week. I think the designated place to post that photo for comments is in the challenge. |
Well said Paul.
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08/10/2004 11:14:44 PM · #127 |
I really haven't said anything here that I haven't in previous threads, and if you want to search go back to sometime last year and find the time where someone posted a photo very similar to what I was going to use in the challenge then you will find out what harsh was. [/quote]
OSS, why do you seem so angry to me?
No one, certainly not me, was arguing whether you post to similar threads or not. Nor was I contending that you did or di not. My comment was directed at what you posted in THIS thread. Perhaps your other posts to similar threads might also be perceived as angry as this one, to me. But since I cannot say that I have seen your other posts, I can only comment on the one that I have seen.
Can;t we all just get along?
This is supposed to be FUN not argumentative.
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08/10/2004 11:16:11 PM · #128 |
Originally posted by OneSweetSin:
Originally posted by slgardner:
Kyebosh has only been a member since June. I imagine he was only trying to start and interesting thread, not sabotage the contest. |
Maybe since he hasn't been around so long he should have asked if it was ok first or if it would offend anyone before starting a thread like this. |
Are you kidding me?
Should we all ask you for permission?
OSS, may I please disagree with you?
Get real & get over it!
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08/10/2004 11:21:23 PM · #129 |
Originally posted by Rooster:
Should we all ask you for permission?
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The point that was being made was if the person was to new to the site, maybe they should have asked around first before posting out takes, to see how they were being handled and what was the most acceptable way to post them.
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08/10/2004 11:25:40 PM · #130 |
My browser must be showing different threads than yours. Since February, I've seen maybe two people enter a shot that was previously posted for advice. Neither was a factor in the ribbons (I think they were both relative newbies who may not have known better). The threat of low votes from people who saw the entry in a thread pretty much prevents the scenario you describe.
The outtakes in these threads are post-submission alternates, even if the voting hasn't yet started. The photographer's entry has been posted, and any advice solicited is for photos that are now effectively outside the challenge and would not otherwise receive ANY feedback. Perhaps the photographer tried a different technique or a new concept that didn't work for this challenge, but might be useful for future challenges if given some helpful feedback. The benefits often apply to others who happen to read the thread.
The notion that these outside posts might somehow steal comments away from challenge entries is unwarranted- the thread responses usually come from folks like Laurielblack and Kavey who leave lots of challenge comments anyway. Those who leave few comments won't generally go out of their way to do so in a forum thread. Everyone is treated equally in this regard, and you are free to post individual photos of your own for feedback.
BTW- The originator of this thread posted some alternates for the express purpose of preventing him from entering them in a challenge- the exact opposite of the problem you describe. |
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08/10/2004 11:28:32 PM · #131 |
Originally posted by boomer:
Why are you all so darned worried about protecting a thousandth or a hundredth of a point in a VIRTUAL contest anyway? Geesh! |
I'm not for myself ... none of my 200 or so entries has even had a whiff of the top ten, much less a ribbon.
But, If I'm (partly) responsible for running a contest, I am passionate about making it fair. That is the format the site creators chose for discussion of photos on the current topic -- you are more than welcome to post your photos of other subjects at any time for feedback.
But, during the contest, it is not fair to clutter up the field with additional photos on that subject which are not in the contest. If there are 130 entries, and 10 people start their own threads, there are now 140 photos on which to comment, diluting the number of comments which potentially go to the entries. Not to mention, that putting a photo in a forum almost always DRAWS more comments than the average entry, partly because they attract more attention to themselves, partly because people aren't rushing through the voting.
Fairness, and consideration of others is the position I've been promoting. Interestingly, several people have said they think that's how it ought to be, but that if there isn't a "rule" about it, then it's OK. Sorry, but I think that if it's wrong for them to do it, they shouldn't need a rule to tell them so; they can just do what's right for its own sake. |
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08/10/2004 11:30:48 PM · #132 |
Originally posted by OneSweetSin:
Originally posted by Rooster:
Should we all ask you for permission?
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The point that was being made was if the person was to new to the site, maybe they should have asked around first before posting out takes, to see how they were being handled and what was the most acceptable way to post them. |
People have been posting them for a while. Why would you have to ask permission for something that was/is going on so frequently?
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08/10/2004 11:31:41 PM · #133 |
Originally posted by OneSweetSin:
...if the person was to new to the site, maybe they should have asked around first before posting out takes, to see how they were being handled and what was the most acceptable way to post them. |
Because there are plenty of precedent outtake threads, and a forum section for getting feedback on individual photographs. Why ask around when such threads are common? Kyebosh suggested that he was posting these pics to prevent him from entering them in a challenge, so I think he was well aware of (and within) the "unwritten rules." |
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08/10/2004 11:50:43 PM · #134 |
As a example of the benefits of these pics... Here is a thread where Rooster was having trouble with a Macro coupler. Gordon helpfully provided a pictorial how-to with a photo example (which could have easily been an outtake from the ongoing challenge).
OK- so this is a lame example, but hopefully you can see the point. Maybe someone else was going to enter a dime for the challenge (vtruan did). Maybe Rooster posts some Macro shots for further guidance or to illustrate the problem. Banning related photo posts before/during a challenge would have the side effect of crippling such learning, which is the very heart of this site.
Side note- I started on the internet fairly early (back when 9600 baud was the new kid on the block), and I was one of the first in my area with broadband. In all these years, this is the ONLY site to which I have ever paid money to subscribe. While there may be room for improvement, I obviously like DPC as-is. ;-) |
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08/11/2004 12:41:25 AM · #135 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Fairness, and consideration of others is the position I've been promoting. Interestingly, several people have said they think that's how it ought to be, but that if there isn't a "rule" about it, then it's OK. Sorry, but I think that if it's wrong for them to do it, they shouldn't need a rule to tell them so; they can just do what's right for its own sake. |
If you are interested in fairness, why would you not want to level the playing field ? For as long as these challenges have been running, groups of people get together and share ideas, discuss setups and get feedback prior to entering images. Many of those who do that, win regularly.
Why is it fair to not allow everyone to be a part of that ?
How does trying to stifle communication about the challenge, techniques and ideas improve either the challenge, the learning experience or the competition ?
I also don't believe people 'steal' comments. Comments happen because an image inspires them. Not because the person has 10 comments that they hand out each week. Images get comments because of what is in them, not because of a lack of other pictures to comment on.
Message edited by author 2004-08-11 00:44:27. |
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08/11/2004 12:52:06 AM · #136 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
If there are 130 entries, and 10 people start their own threads, there are now 140 photos on which to comment, diluting the number of comments which potentially go to the entries. |
By this logic, ANY photo posted to the forum during a challenge (and there always are at least two these days) is taking away from potential comments you might get on your challenge entry. Should we abolish ALL postings of photos in the forums?
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Not to mention, that putting a photo in a forum almost always DRAWS more comments than the average entry, partly because they attract more attention to themselves, partly because people aren't rushing through the voting. |
I disagree. I find I seldomly get comments when I post images to the forums. perhaps 1 or 2. But I usually get many more during the challenges, as the photos are viewed by most members. Not every body reads the forums.
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08/11/2004 01:00:04 AM · #137 |
I got to thinking...
Since I have no comments yet on my VP entry, perhaps it is because everybody is busy reading this damn thread, and therefore have no keyboard strokes left with which to comment on my image.
Maybe we need to abolish the forums?
OK everybody, no more talking. Go comment on the images. GO!
PS: Sorry for the sarcasm. It's just in good fun.
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08/11/2004 01:12:37 AM · #138 |
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08/11/2004 01:27:56 AM · #139 |
Originally posted by boomer:
In the meantime, put me in Gordon's and Kavey's camp (and many others who've posted already). I'm hear to learn about taking better photographs. I don't care when/where they get discussed, and I certainly react to anyone's outtake by withdrawing my entry! My goodness! Why are you all so darned worried about protecting a thousandth or a hundredth of a point in a VIRTUAL contest anyway? . |
I've been reading this thread all day and keeping my mouth shut. I don't know how I've managed to show such amazing self-control. I'm probably too busy dealing with post-nasal drip and clammy skin (summer cold). Anyway, put me in the Gordon, Kavey, boomer, camp too. I'm for open discussion. We're here to learn from each other. GeneralE, if you want comments so bad, do what everyone else does and post a thread requesting it. Or ask someone who's work you admire to give look at a photo and comment on it. I'm sure they will be flattered enough to take a moment of their time to offer some words at special request.
I've found that the photo posting threads in which an individual ask for comments (or simply offers a photo for others to see) only generate so much interest anyway so what's the big deal? |
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08/11/2004 01:31:21 AM · #140 |
Originally posted by mariomel:
I disagree. I find I seldomly get comments when I post images to the forums. perhaps 1 or 2. But I usually get many more during the challenges, as the photos are viewed by most members. Not every body reads the forums. |
This was what I was trying to say but you put it much better. Anytime I've requested comments on a photo in a forum I get, at most, 4 responses. It's usually less. I doubt those folks are going to refrain from commenting on challenge entries just because they took a minute of their time to look at my non-challenge photo. |
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08/11/2004 05:45:25 AM · #141 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
But, during the contest, it is not fair to clutter up the field with additional photos on that subject which are not in the contest. If there are 130 entries, and 10 people start their own threads, there are now 140 photos on which to comment, diluting the number of comments which potentially go to the entries. |
Just because someone posts a photo (regardless of subject) whether forum, challenge, or portfolio does NOT mean it HAS to get any comments. OK, so 10 people post photos during the voting of a challenge. Who said it was THE LAW that you must comment on those or ANY of the challenge entries?
Last I checked, there were 135 submissions to vote on for "Feet." At the same time, there are 253 submissions for "Vanishing Point." Were you actually planning on commenting on 388 challenge entries, let alone EACH AND EVERY SINGLE IMAGE posted in Individual Photograph Discussion?
If that were the case, I expect each and every photo in my Portfolio to have a comment from GeneralE. |
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08/11/2004 06:40:50 AM · #142 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
For as long as these challenges have been running, groups of people get together and share ideas, discuss setups and get feedback prior to entering images. Many of those who do that, win regularly. |
Hey a secret club? I want in :D
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08/11/2004 09:06:39 AM · #143 |
Originally posted by jonpink:
Originally posted by Gordon:
For as long as these challenges have been running, groups of people get together and share ideas, discuss setups and get feedback prior to entering images. Many of those who do that, win regularly. |
Hey a secret club? I want in :D |
There is no secret fnord club. Don't know where fnord you get that idea. The illuminati is not fnord in control. |
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08/11/2004 09:12:33 AM · #144 |
Now I am lost and intrigued. :D
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08/11/2004 09:17:55 AM · #145 |
Originally posted by jonpink:
Now I am lost and intrigued. :D |
//www.hawkins.nu/cgi-bin/gtchat/chat.pl would be one example. I'm sure there are plenty of other similar loosely coupled groups that talk about challenges, share ideas, preview work and so on. Nor do I see anything wrong with that - it improves ideas, it clarifies designs, it increases learning.
Getting feedback from peers prior to entering an image isn't dishonest.
Discussing ideas doesn't diminish the quality of any entry.
Seeing a similar concept prior to voting doesn't change the exisiting worth of another similar image. If the concept wasn't new, it wasn't new - no matter if someone shows it to this whole group or not.
There are a lot of railway track images in vanishing point. Some are better than others. That didn't change because someone pointed out that railway tracks would be a good idea for vanishing point.
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08/11/2004 09:31:05 AM · #146 |
Yeah showing your pictures sounds neat.
I have said this before and been labeled a git for it, but I would love to receive critique from photographers that i admire or whose work i find attractive and effective. (not that I don't currently - just in an ideal world I would like more of it)
The learning curve would be so much shorter if all critiques were of that nature.
Kind of like playing golf - I enjoy playing with people better than myself - scratch to 10 handicappers. You learn so much more and it makes you more determined to improve.
Playing with 20+ hackers is fun but not good for improving your game.
Sounds pretty shallow & selfish though eh.
Message edited by author 2004-08-11 09:32:43.
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08/11/2004 10:09:13 AM · #147 |
Originally posted by jonpink:
Sounds pretty shallow & selfish though eh. |
which bit ?
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08/11/2004 10:36:19 AM · #148 |
actually i love the idea of people asking for comments on pictures in forums, they are the ones who seem to want more honest critiques. From my experience so far, in challenges, the average person only wants to be told "good picture" or "nice shot" and if you comment or offer your opinion, it's as if every tom, dick, and harriette wants to debate it...therefore I'm pretty sure that commenters don't have the time to debate their true honest and immediate feelings about a shot; which pushes down the overall number of comments left by viewers.
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08/11/2004 10:51:13 AM · #149 |
Originally posted by jonpink:
Kind of like playing golf - I enjoy playing with people better than myself - scratch to 10 handicappers. You learn so much more and it makes you more determined to improve.
Playing with 20+ hackers is fun but not good for improving your game.
Sounds pretty shallow & selfish though eh. |
I agree with this theory. I'm shallow and selfish, too.
BTW, Will you critique all my photos? :)) |
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08/11/2004 10:56:24 AM · #150 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
//www.hawkins.nu/cgi-bin/gtchat/chat.pl would be one example. I'm sure there are plenty of other similar loosely coupled groups that talk about challenges, share ideas, preview work and so on. Nor do I see anything wrong with that - it improves ideas, it clarifies designs, it increases learning.
Getting feedback from peers prior to entering an image isn't dishonest.
Discussing ideas doesn't diminish the quality of any entry. |
I am not arguing against any of that ... I am arguing against the relatively new phenomenon of posting those pictures in these forums during the submission period.
And no, I'm not planning to comment on all the pictures. I tried that a few challenges ago and it took too long : )
But, if I'm going to make some number of comments, the more photos in the pool, the less chance of any one of those getting a comment from me. |
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