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08/10/2004 09:45:18 AM · #76 |
Originally posted by mariomel:
Did you guys wake up on the wrong side of the bed today, or what? Take a chill pill. If you don't like these types of threads, don't read them. It was pretty clear in her title what the thread was about.
Nowhere does it say that this type of thread is not permitted.
Jeez, some people... |
I agree. The thread was clearly labeled so if you did not want to see -- you shouldn't have looked!
Sheez, people. Have we lost what this site and community is about? I guess for some people it's more of a competition/ratings thing. For others it's a laid-back way of sharing photography and learning.
I understand that you might not care for the early release of pictures, but I really think that opinions could have been expressed in a more constructive manner. No one likes to be verbally bashed. |
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08/10/2004 09:49:05 AM · #77 |
All bashing aside, I can't find a picture I like well enough to submit, let alone consider as an outtake... LOL ;o)
Try to have a great day, everybody!
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08/10/2004 09:50:55 AM · #78 |
Originally posted by laurielblack:
Try to have a great day, everybody! |
you too! :) |
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08/10/2004 09:59:11 AM · #79 |
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08/10/2004 10:53:16 AM · #80 |
Either make it a rule or leave well alone.
Working to "unwritten rules" is unfair and leads to precisely this kind of harassment of new members who have no reason to believe that a discussion of images related to (but not entered into) the current challenge is anathema to some people.
Some people see it as being courteous to refrain from posting outtakes until after the challenge (and I'd probably agree that it's certainly nicer to do so but am not in the group who think that this is necessary). Others feel discussing images which are about a particular theme at the very time people are focused on that theme is the most appropriate time.
So instead of leaving it to guess work (since we all have very different ideas of what is acceptable, courteous etc) let's make it a rule of the site or let it be.
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08/10/2004 10:56:59 AM · #81 |
Originally posted by OneSweetSin:
Originally posted by e301:
"Taint the outcome of the challenge"?
Did you really write/mean that?
Here's another image that uses the technique. It has a blue ribbon, it's been viewed near 2500 times, selected as a favourite 35 times, has 67 comments. It's not a secret, is it? What's the big deal about someone posting a few odd shots?
The sub-heading of this forum reads "Discuss the current challenge and how you feel about it or ideas you may haveâ€Â¦" Isn't that exactly what's going on here?
Not only are these suggestions that this is somehow wrong rather odd, they're diametrically opposed to a specific instruction on the site.
Ed |
Again that is like going back and looking at Macro 1, 2 and 3 before doing the challenge, it's an entirely different situation.
What was done here and more so with the title of the thread is offer everyone an opportunity to show what they didn't use for the challenge prior to the challenge taking place...that's like discussing what we won't be voting on by one person but might be by another person...but hey if you want I can post my outtakes too who cares if its the same subject matter as my entry....its still an outtake...and thats what is going to eventually happen and whoever does do that will say what's the difference its still an outtake. |
Sorry OSS but I still don't get the difference in terms of impact.
Surely any image on the theme, whether from DPC archives, from another site entirely, or an outtake from the current challenge, has a similar impact on peoples' ideas and entries to the current challenge and on peoples' voting patterns?
Or are you suggesting that we actually somehow ignore the ideas and influences of other images we see and only allow ourselves to be influenced by outtakes? I don't see how!
If the memory of seeing a beautiful image of railroad tracks vanishing to a point just before the challenge DOES influence how someone judges entries into the challenge it's going to be at a subconscious level and it's NOT going to make a difference whether that image shared was an outtake, an old challenge entry or from somewhere else.
Message edited by author 2004-08-10 10:57:51.
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08/10/2004 11:00:03 AM · #82 |
Originally posted by Kavey:
Either make it a rule or leave well alone.
Working to "unwritten rules" is unfair and leads to precisely this kind of harassment of new members who have no reason to believe that a discussion of images related to (but not entered into) the current challenge is anathema to some people.
Some people see it as being courteous to refrain from posting outtakes until after the challenge (and I'd probably agree that it's certainly nicer to do so but am not in the group who think that this is necessary). Others feel discussing images which are about a particular theme at the very time people are focused on that theme is the most appropriate time.
So instead of leaving it to guess work (since we all have very different ideas of what is acceptable, courteous etc) let's make it a rule of the site or let it be. |
I totally agree it needs to be a written rule and I have suggested that previously in this thread.
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08/10/2004 11:04:06 AM · #83 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by Kavey:
Complaining that an individual gets more feedback by asking for it in forums than someone who doesn't strikes me as petty. |
Asking for individual feedback on a photo of "Topic X" when there is already an upcoming challenge on "Topic X" to which that photo is supposed to be submitted strikes me as selfish.
Can't I just have two entries too? Or maybe I'll post three or four images in the forums, and then I can get some really good advice about which one to submit. I mean, as long as it's BEFORE the voting commences, I can always take the photo which gets the best feedback and submit that; the majority of the voters probably won't have been prejudiced by the thread, and anyway it will be my best choice, right?
We allow people to do this OUTSIDE of DPC -- people post their images at pBase or something and then ask certain people to check them out. It's only recently that it's been becoming a worsening problem with people posting outtakes and alternates here, first during the voting, and now even earlier during the submission period.
Please allow those of us who just submit our on-topic photos to the challenges and wait during the week for our feedback to feel just a bit ripped-off. |
Maybe it strikes you as selfish but it doesn't strike me as selfish to want feedback on images other than those entered into a challenge, though as I have said, I think that a (politely posted) suggestion to wait until after the voting has finished would be perfectly acceptable.
But certainly the mere act of asking for further feedback on one's work in forums has never been "wrong" here that I have noticed. It's one of the common themes in the forums and has been for as long as I've been here.
I was under the impression that this site was not merely about the challenges but also about the discussion of ideas generated by those challenges and that this is what the forums are for. I think the kind of feedback one receives in forums is a very different thing to challenge comments and is more about a dialogue between photographer and fellow DPCers.
Rather than bashing people for being selfish as YOU see it, either make it a rule that posting outtakes is not permitted or LIVE WITH IT.
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Incidentally I see two different reasons from those who don't want outtakes posted:
1) It's not fair since the person is getting more feedback than someone else
2) It will influence entries and voting on the challenge
I'm assuming you are coming from position number one and OSS is coming from position 2.
My argument against position 2 is as above - either make it a rule that NO images on the current theme be shared (outtakes, past entries or other) or allow all.
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08/10/2004 11:06:03 AM · #84 |
Originally posted by OneSweetSin:
Originally posted by Kavey:
Either make it a rule or leave well alone.
Working to "unwritten rules" is unfair and leads to precisely this kind of harassment of new members who have no reason to believe that a discussion of images related to (but not entered into) the current challenge is anathema to some people.
Some people see it as being courteous to refrain from posting outtakes until after the challenge (and I'd probably agree that it's certainly nicer to do so but am not in the group who think that this is necessary). Others feel discussing images which are about a particular theme at the very time people are focused on that theme is the most appropriate time.
So instead of leaving it to guess work (since we all have very different ideas of what is acceptable, courteous etc) let's make it a rule of the site or let it be. |
I totally agree it needs to be a written rule and I have suggested that previously in this thread. |
Absolutely. I respect your opinion on that and would be more than happy to see a separate thread calling for that idea or looking to debate that idea. And you know what, I'd vote for that rule to be implemented too.
Until it is though I think it's wrong to have a go at someone who chooses to do so. For one it's completely inconsistent since there are other threads showing and discussing ideas for current challenges that go by uncontested.
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08/10/2004 11:23:26 AM · #85 |
Originally posted by Kavey:
I was under the impression that this site was not merely about the challenges but also about the discussion of ideas generated by those challenges and that this is what the forums are for. |
The thing to remember is that this site is, first and foremost, about the challenges. Therefore, I think that preserving the fairness of the challenges (during both the submission phase and voting phase) needs to be the most important consideration.
That being said, let me say that I am strongly in favor of having a formal rule that out-takes, unused ideas, concepts, etc. related to the current challenge not be posted until after the voting is over and the challenge results have been computed. At that point, any and all out-takes can be posted in the "Challenge Results" forum, where folks can make meaningful comparisons to the entered shots. (Posts that say "I wonder if I should've entered this instead?" when you don't know what their actual entry is is pointless.) In addition, by waiting until the results are posted, you can reference actual challenge entries for comparison to the "out-takes", so you can say things like "well if you look at the 8th place finisher, which used a similar idea to your out-take, they did this and this, which made for a stronger photo." Those kind of comparative references are a powerful learning tool. This is in contrast to photos that are posted early that can actually prevent somebody from even entering because their concept was posted as an "out-take".
As an aside: I personally know of somebody who had made arrangements to rent a nun's habit from a costume shop for the Habits challenge. A few days into the submission period, some comments were made about this idea in the forums, and she ended up cancelling the costume rental, and we lost out on seeing what could've been a very creative photo. People don't realize it, but some folks can be easily affected by those type of comments, especially when they realize that the people making and reading those comments are the ones who are going to be voting on their entry.
Message edited by author 2004-08-10 11:31:00. |
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08/10/2004 12:19:23 PM · #86 |
Originally posted by EddyG:
Originally posted by Kavey:
I was under the impression that this site was not merely about the challenges but also about the discussion of ideas generated by those challenges and that this is what the forums are for. |
The thing to remember is that this site is, first and foremost, about the challenges. Therefore, I think that preserving the fairness of the challenges (during both the submission phase and voting phase) needs to be the most important consideration. |
Yes, I agree that it's important to preserve fairness of challenges.
Originally posted by EddyG:
That being said, let me say that I am strongly in favor of having a formal rule that out-takes, unused ideas, concepts, etc. related to the current challenge not be posted until after the voting is over and the challenge results have been computed. [...] |
I'd agree regarding the posting of outtakes but ... see below...
Originally posted by EddyG:
As an aside: I personally know of somebody who had made arrangements to rent a nun's habit from a costume shop for the Habits challenge. A few days into the submission period, some comments were made about this idea in the forums, and she ended up cancelling the costume rental, and we lost out on seeing what could've been a very creative photo. People don't realize it, but some folks can be easily affected by those type of comments, especially when they realize that the people making and reading those comments are the ones who are going to be voting on their entry. |
The thing is, some people prefer to work in a vacuum, keeping their thoughts and ideas in isolation. Others find it much easier to develop their ideas by brainstorming and bouncing ideas off others.
Isn't banning all pre-challenge discussion of ideas and concepts unfair to that latter group?
People should perhaps focus more on whether their idea is a strong one and appeals to them; on whether it gets their creative juices going than concentrate solely on whether the idea is unique or not. Let's say your friend had not noticed the conversation in the forum and gone ahead with her idea and then discovered others had had the same idea. Would that have made her own idea and entry any less valid? I don't believe so.
I just don't know that it's fair to stop some from discussing ideas and concepts just because some others are put off by those discussions.
I don't know, I'm just playing devil's advocate here and trying to present a balanced discussion.
Personally I don't feel a burning need to discuss ideas pre-challenge but then nor do I allow discussions between other people to impact on my own decisions and ideas if I am already happy with them.
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08/10/2004 12:29:17 PM · #87 |
Originally posted by EddyG:
let me say that I am strongly in favor of having a formal rule that out-takes, unused ideas, concepts, etc. related to the current challenge not be posted until after the voting is over and the challenge results have been computed. |
Am I to understand that you would even outlaw postings about concepts as well? That seems a tad extreme to me. I thought the whole point of the "current challenge" forum was to discuss concepts, explanations of the challenge, etc.
You can post previous examples of images to discuss the direction and toughts about the challenge. I don't see why you shouldn't post out-takes as well.
It doesn't mean they are lousy images or concepts. Just that the poster preferred entering a different image. I sometimes don't choose my "BEST" image because of reasons that are personal to me and the direction I want my photography to take.
Nothing prevents us from taking an image that has been posted as an outake, and making it our own, with our own twist, our own feel. Many people here could take that train track image and make it a possible contender. If you back down from the challenge, then that's a shame. You need not use an absolutely original image to get high marks.
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08/10/2004 12:46:18 PM · #88 |
Originally posted by mariomel:
Originally posted by EddyG:
let me say that I am strongly in favor of having a formal rule that out-takes, unused ideas, concepts, etc. related to the current challenge not be posted until after the voting is over and the challenge results have been computed. |
Am I to understand that you would even outlaw postings about concepts as well? That seems a tad extreme to me. I thought the whole point of the "current challenge" forum was to discuss concepts, explanations of the challenge, etc.
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Here's a slightly different take on this. For the "everyday objects" challenge - I had an idea to use a lightbulb. Prior to entering, there was a thread that stated something to the effect that "I thought about lightbulbs, but decided it might not be an everyday object in all parts of the world."
So - I almost changed my idea and did something else. In the end I entered it as originally planned and it scored in the top 10 percent.
But - I wonder how many (if any) voters remembered reading that it would not be a "good" object and voted accordingly.
Bottom line is that I agree that it would be better to have these type discussions after the fact - and a written rule would be appropriate.
-Tom- |
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08/10/2004 12:50:56 PM · #89 |
Originally posted by photom:
So - I almost changed my idea and did something else. In the end I entered it as originally planned and it scored in the top 10 percent.
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Seems to me that you just made my point. You took the idea, or rather kept your idea, and made it your own. AND IT WORKED. Top 10. Congrats!
If you can make it a good photo, it doesn't matter if it's already been discussed, posted, out-taked, etc.
A good photo will do well, regardless. So take good photos, not crappy ones.
That's my new motto...
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08/10/2004 04:13:18 PM · #90 |
| Maybe I shoulda just said I took them a few weeks ago... Then we wouldn't have this big argument. |
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08/10/2004 04:20:19 PM · #91 |
Originally posted by kyebosh:
Maybe I shoulda just said I took them a few weeks ago... Then we wouldn't have this big argument. |
LOL....and maybe I should have said....Why couldn't you have waited til after the voting starts to post these.
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08/10/2004 04:26:09 PM · #92 |
Originally posted by OneSweetSin:
Why couldn't you have waited til after the voting starts to post these. |
That still doesn't address the issue of "taking away" from the pictures that are actually in the challenge. Out-takes should be posted after the voting has ended, not when it starts... especially because a posted out-take could be similar to an actual challenge entry, and comments made in the forum about that particular out-take could influence how voters react to that picture when they vote on it. |
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08/10/2004 04:29:50 PM · #93 |
Originally posted by EddyG:
Originally posted by OneSweetSin:
Why couldn't you have waited til after the voting starts to post these. |
That still doesn't address the issue of "taking away" from the pictures that are actually in the challenge. Out-takes should be posted after the voting has ended, not when it starts... especially because a posted out-take could be similar to an actual challenge entry, and comments made in the forum about that particular out-take could influence how voters react to that picture when they vote on it. |
Unless the site establishes this as a rule (which is fine by me) I think it's not fair to float it around as an unwritten rule.
Can D&L put up a poll about whether to instigate a new rule forbidding posting of outtakes until after voting on the challenge is over?
I'd keep the issue of posting about concepts and ideas separate from that poll myself as I do think that they are separate issues.
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08/10/2004 04:30:55 PM · #94 |
Originally posted by OneSweetSin:
Originally posted by kyebosh:
Maybe I shoulda just said I took them a few weeks ago... Then we wouldn't have this big argument. |
LOL....and maybe I should have said....Why couldn't you have waited til after the voting starts to post these. |
...and maybe I should say let's all take an hour or three to enjoy the frosty beverage(s) of your choice, the beautiful sunshine, another day of life on planet Earth, and a momentary truce within which we can enjoy them... ;o)
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08/10/2004 04:36:40 PM · #95 |
Originally posted by OneSweetSin:
Originally posted by kyebosh:
Maybe I shoulda just said I took them a few weeks ago... Then we wouldn't have this big argument. |
LOL....and maybe I should have said....Why couldn't you have waited til after the voting starts to post these. |
Seems to me that's pretty much what you DID say. Which is why we are here discussing this.
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08/10/2004 04:38:05 PM · #96 |
Originally posted by Kavey:
Can D&L put up a poll about whether to instigate a new rule forbidding posting of outtakes until after voting on the challenge is over?
I'd keep the issue of posting about concepts and ideas separate from that poll myself as I do think that they are separate issues. |
I totally agree with you here and I did take your suggestion about another thread earlier today to discuss it but seems we are still discussing it here instead.
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08/10/2004 04:38:56 PM · #97 |
Yeah, OSS I did notice that. Didn't go down well. I guess it's too embedded here to be moved easily.
SORRY KYEBOSH! Don't lose heart and don't give up on DPC!
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08/10/2004 04:39:13 PM · #98 |
Originally posted by Kavey:
Unless the site establishes this as a rule (which is fine by me) I think it's not fair to float it around as an unwritten rule. |
I agree; but the fact of the matter is that right now, DPC already has several unwritten rules. For example, the rule about anonymity and not posting references to your own challenge entry. As far as I can tell, that "rule" is not documented anywhere, yet it seems to be an "accepted" rule.
Originally posted by Kavey:
Can D&L put up a poll about whether to instigate a new rule forbidding posting of outtakes until after voting on the challenge is over? |
Coincidentally, the topic of "Forum Etiquette" (of which posting out-takes was a key part) has been being discussed amongst the SC members for the past couple weeks. I posted an SC-only poll last week. The vote was in favor (61%) of supporting such a "rule", but there were enough people (39%) who disagreed that no official action in the form of making a "Forum Etiquette" announcement was posted.
Originally posted by Kavey:
I'd keep the issue of posting about concepts and ideas separate from that poll myself as I do think that they are separate issues. |
To me, I think they are the same thing. If somebody wants to say "look at the photos in the Xyzzy challenge for some good examples" or "check out the collection of photos on this web site", I'm OK with that, since it isn't calling public attention to any one particular idea or concept. Or if somebody wants to PM the person that is requesting "clarification" with a specific image, that's fine too. But when somebody posts a specific example (and I know I've been guilty of that in the past), whether it is from a past challenge or from another site, it has a negative effect on creativity, IMHO, because it is a specific concept or idea.
Message edited by author 2004-08-10 16:47:52. |
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08/10/2004 04:39:20 PM · #99 |
Originally posted by mariomel:
Originally posted by OneSweetSin:
Originally posted by kyebosh:
Maybe I shoulda just said I took them a few weeks ago... Then we wouldn't have this big argument. |
LOL....and maybe I should have said....Why couldn't you have waited til after the voting starts to post these. |
Seems to me that's pretty much what you DID say. Which is why we are here discussing this. |
I didn't say it that nicely last night.
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08/10/2004 04:50:24 PM · #100 |
Originally posted by EddyG:
Originally posted by Kavey:
Unless the site establishes this as a rule (which is fine by me) I think it's not fair to float it around as an unwritten rule. |
I agree; DPC has several unwritten rules. For example, the rule about anonymity and not posting references to your own challenge entry. As far as I can tell, that "rule" is not documented anywhere, yet it seems to be an "accepted" rule. |
I think they should be documented rules too. I think it's very unfair on new members to provide no guidelines to this kind of expected behaviour and leave them open to being harassed by disgruntled oldtimers who know and accept and adhere to the unwritten rules.
Originally posted by EddyG:
Originally posted by Kavey:
Can D&L put up a poll about whether to instigate a new rule forbidding posting of outtakes until after voting on the challenge is over? |
Coincidentally, the topic of "Forum Etiquette" (of which posting out-takes was a key part) has been being discussed amongst the SC members for the past couple weeks. I posted an SC-only poll last week. The vote was in favor (61%) of supporting such a "rule", but there were enough people (39%) who disagreed that no official action in the form of making a "Forum Etiquette" announcement was posted. |
Perhaps because it was too broad a question? Breaking it down into bits might help clarify what specifically people agree with and what they disagree with.
Originally posted by EddyG:
Originally posted by Kavey:
I'd keep the issue of posting about concepts and ideas separate from that poll myself as I do think that they are separate issues. |
To me, I think they are the same thing. If somebody wants to say "investigate the photos in the Xyzzy challenge for some good examples" or "check out the collection of photos on this web site", I'm OK with that, since it isn't calling public attention to any one particular idea or concept. But when somebody posts a specific example (and I know I've been guilty of that in the past), whether it is from a past challenge or from another site, it has a negative effect on creativity, IMHO, because it is a specific concept or idea. |
You may think they are the same thing. Others, including myself, don't agree and I think it would muddy the poll results.
I would vote Yes to instituting a rule forbidding posting of outtakes until after the voting was completed but would vote No to a rule forbidding discussion of ideas and concepts in a brainstorming fashion. The conception of ideas is as important a part of the process as the taking and post processing of the image and many like to mutually support each other in that aspect.
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