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07/18/2004 01:24:46 PM · #76 |
| In addition, I believe that Bush is reneging on his obligations to defend and uphold The Constitution of the US that he swore he would in the oath of office that he recited when he took office. That's a much bigger crime than what Mr. Hinzman has done. |
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07/18/2004 01:35:41 PM · #77 |
Hinzman can complete his contractual obligations without having to kill any innocents. He can go & do his job. If noone threatens his life than he will not have to kill anyone. If someone does threaten his life then I guess he'll be faced with a moral dillemma of shooting the innocent shooting at him or getting shot himself.
I did not say it is not up to US to determine who the enemy is, but it is not up to a SINGLE person. If he was a THINKING man than he wouldn't have entered the service if he had a problem with going to war.
A soldier is not supposed to follow blindly. At any point in time during a conflict that a soldier believes he is given an unlawful command or doesn't agree with it morally he can state his position. A soldier that follows blindly is not the norm. I'm here, I know. You're not, don't pretend to know the truth when you've never been there. I do believe that is exactly what you've been telling others who do not share your opinions.
Hinzman deserves to be punished under the articles of the Uniform Code of Military Justice. By fleeing to Canada he is trying to avoid this. The bottom line is he is running away from his responsibilities.
Once Bush has been proven of shirking his obligations he can & will be held accountable. The facts aren't all together. The facts with Hinzman are, let him face the music. |
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07/18/2004 01:37:53 PM · #78 |
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
In addition, I believe that Bush is reneging on his obligations to defend and uphold The Constitution of the US that he swore he would in the oath of office that he recited when he took office. That's a much bigger crime than what Mr. Hinzman has done. |
How do you live with yourself with so much hatred? I dont agree with alot wht President Bush has done, but to harbor so much hatred must be unhealthy.
Iraq will be free, the people in the country will be much better off without a dictator that murders, tortures and gasses his own people.
As far as the soldier ran off to Canada....he is a coward that was never meant to be in the Armed Sevices anyhow. |
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07/18/2004 02:18:48 PM · #79 |
Originally posted by fullmontez:
Hinzman can complete his contractual obligations without having to kill any innocents. He can go & do his job. If noone threatens his life than he will not have to kill anyone. If someone does threaten his life then I guess he'll be faced with a moral dillemma of shooting the innocent shooting at him or getting shot himself.
I did not say it is not up to US to determine who the enemy is, but it is not up to a SINGLE person. If he was a THINKING man than he wouldn't have entered the service if he had a problem with going to war.
A soldier is not supposed to follow blindly. At any point in time during a conflict that a soldier believes he is given an unlawful command or doesn't agree with it morally he can state his position. A soldier that follows blindly is not the norm. I'm here, I know. You're not, don't pretend to know the truth when you've never been there. I do believe that is exactly what you've been telling others who do not share your opinions.
Hinzman deserves to be punished under the articles of the Uniform Code of Military Justice. By fleeing to Canada he is trying to avoid this. The bottom line is he is running away from his responsibilities.
Once Bush has been proven of shirking his obligations he can & will be held accountable. The facts aren't all together. The facts with Hinzman are, let him face the music. |
******
I think that this has turned into an offensive war where the US is being the aggressor and killing and torturing innocent people. The Red Cross has determined that as much as 90% of the detainees there are innocent and have nothing to do with terrorism or acts against the US military. I have seen film clips where the US is entering homes and terrorizing the inhabitants. Would you tolerate that if that were happening in the US? I doubt it. Mr. Hinzman does not want to be part of that.
It's not so easy in war/fighting for an enlisted person to speak out against higher ranking officers when they disagree with an order or the morality of a given situation. Even without serving in the military I'm sure of that as there are consequences for speaking out. They can tell you that, but I doubt there are many who speak out at the risk of punishment.
If it's not up to a single person to decide who our enemy is then the president, a single person, should not be allowed to decide either. It goes against The Constitution.
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07/18/2004 02:21:37 PM · #80 |
Originally posted by Riggs:
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
In addition, I believe that Bush is reneging on his obligations to defend and uphold The Constitution of the US that he swore he would in the oath of office that he recited when he took office. That's a much bigger crime than what Mr. Hinzman has done. |
How do you live with yourself with so much hatred? I dont agree with alot wht President Bush has done, but to harbor so much hatred must be unhealthy.
Iraq will be free, the people in the country will be much better off without a dictator that murders, tortures and gasses his own people.
As far as the soldier ran off to Canada....he is a coward that was never meant to be in the Armed Sevices anyhow. |
*****
I do NOT harbor hatred and wish all well and good health, including the men and women of our armed services, the people of our country, as well as, the people of Iraq and all the people of the world. I want peace, and not war; handshaking, not hand-to-hand combat.
Message edited by author 2004-07-18 14:27:35. |
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07/18/2004 02:26:52 PM · #81 |
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
If it's not up to a single person to decide who our enemy is then the president, a single person, should not be allowed to decide either. It goes against The Constitution. |
Congress agreed. Fry them along with him. |
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07/18/2004 05:11:43 PM · #82 |
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
I think that this has turned into an offensive war where the US is being the aggressor and killing and torturing innocent people. |
Well if you think so it must be true. |
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07/18/2004 07:04:38 PM · #83 |
Originally posted by louddog:
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
I think that this has turned into an offensive war where the US is being the aggressor and killing and torturing innocent people. |
Well if you think so it must be true. |
*******
I'm not saying it, Louddog, others are, such as people who've served in Iraq and journalists who've reported from Iraq.
Here's an example of 12 year Marine veteren who just recently returned from Iraq with an honorable discharge. Read his interview and see what he had to say about killing innocent people there.
Article |
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07/18/2004 07:06:11 PM · #84 |
Seems to me there's a problem with our priorities when a signed piece of paper takes precedence over human lives.
"We forget what war is about, what it does to those who wage it and those who suffer from it. Those who hate war the most, I have often found, are veterans who know it."
- Chris Hedges, New York Times reporter and author of "War Is a Force That Gives Us Meaning
Message edited by author 2004-07-18 19:18:33. |
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07/18/2004 08:21:41 PM · #85 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by frychikn:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by SoCal69:
Now, after having accepted and received all of these benefits, they have decided that they do not want to keep up their end of the bargain. I'm sorry but this is unacceptable. If a private company contracts for you to do a job, and they pay to train you, house you and provide a salary, and you accept all those benefits, do you then get to just decide to change your mind when you suddenly "don't agree" with the underlying princples? |
Perhaps you should ask this of a college football or basketball coach ... they seem to find it perfectly fine to "move on" whenever a better offer surfaces, regardless of the commitments they made to their school or recruits. |
College coaches are not paid with taxpayer's money. |
Coaches at the University of California are paid with taxpayer money, as well as those at San Jose State, Michigan State, UCLA, and "several" other well- and lesser-known schools ....
The issue is what kind of example we set for our young people in terms of "commitment." When they routinely see "responsible" adults walking away from those commitments (contract holdouts by athletes and entertainers are another notorious example), why should they be presumed to understand that some other standard applies ... besides, like I pointed out, there is a way to do this completely within "proper procedure." It's not illegal, it's not immoral, it may be unethical, and it is definitely rare. |
Well, you are right about the college coaches being paid with taxpayer's money at state supported colleges among others. I should have known better.
If the college coach actually breaches his contract there are legal remedies the aggrieved college can take. As far as the guy in the army being irresitably seduced into breaching his contract because college coaches have done so, that is like saying it is OK or at least understandable that somebody can go out and murder eight young women because, after all, Richard Speck did it. |
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07/18/2004 08:32:00 PM · #86 |
Originally posted by frychikn:
If the college coach actually breaches his contract there are legal remedies the aggrieved college can take. As far as the guy in the army being irresitably seduced into breaching his contract because college coaches have done so, that is like saying it is OK or at least understandable that somebody can go out and murder eight young women because, after all, Richard Speck did it. |
I don't think coaches actually breach their contracts, they have "escape clauses" written into them, just like the rules governing military service have. I just think coaches have a far easier time exercising their rights ...
Your analogy is pretty strained ... I didn't actually say I thought coaches broke the law or anything, just that they (that is, we, us older folks ...) are largely setting a pretty poor example of commitment and responsibility.
And, sometimes unjust laws simply must be broken in order to be changed. Perhaps you've heard of Rosa Parks, the story of the lunch counter at F.W. WOolworth's, or the Boston Tea Party ... |
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07/18/2004 08:54:10 PM · #87 |
So should we just let everyone in the military that wants to go home do so?
Serious question, Yes or No will suffice.
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07/18/2004 09:01:25 PM · #88 |
| I'd like to second what LoudDog is saying right now. This is what is wrong all over the board. Everyone wants to point out what is wrong with the issues. But does anyone have a solution? |
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07/18/2004 09:15:39 PM · #89 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by frychikn:
If the college coach actually breaches his contract there are legal remedies the aggrieved college can take. As far as the guy in the army being irresitably seduced into breaching his contract because college coaches have done so, that is like saying it is OK or at least understandable that somebody can go out and murder eight young women because, after all, Richard Speck did it. |
I don't think coaches actually breach their contracts, they have "escape clauses" written into them, just like the rules governing military service have. I just think coaches have a far easier time exercising their rights ...
Your analogy is pretty strained ... I didn't actually say I thought coaches broke the law or anything, just that they (that is, we, us older folks ...) are largely setting a pretty poor example of commitment and responsibility.
And, sometimes unjust laws simply must be broken in order to be changed. Perhaps you've heard of Rosa Parks, the story of the lunch counter at F.W. WOolworth's, or the Boston Tea Party ... |
Honoring one's signed contract with the Army is an unjust law, akin to blacks at the back of the bus, blacks not permitted in public dining facilities, etc.? Now THAT is strained! |
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07/18/2004 10:11:08 PM · #90 |
That "contract" includes provisions or procedures for current enlistees to obtain CO status. You are not breaking it if you follow those procedures. This guy may well have broken his contract, and as such will probably face severe consequences. That alone ... that someone is willing to go to Federal prison over the depth of their belief, should be an indicator of whether this is frivilous or not.
You are aware, though, that the men sending him to war, i.e. Mssrs. Bush, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, et al, all exercised their positions of conscience and priviledge to avoid active military duty when it was within their discretion to serve ... and I don't think any of them claimed that the conflict they were avoiding (and certainly not ALL war) was unjust or illegal ... |
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07/19/2004 10:10:38 AM · #91 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
You are aware, though, that the men sending him to war, i.e. Mssrs. Bush, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, et al, all exercised their positions of conscience and priviledge to avoid active military duty when it was within their discretion to serve ... and I don't think any of them claimed that the conflict they were avoiding (and certainly not ALL war) was unjust or illegal ... |
Good point.
Also Clinton, as my previous link shows.
A quick Google search into Bush's military record still has alot of contriversy around it to this day, yet the main stream media has all but let it go.
To quote Bill Maher:
"The press handles the current president with kid gloves." |
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07/19/2004 10:47:58 AM · #92 |
| No one answered my question yet. |
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07/19/2004 12:23:05 PM · #93 |
Originally posted by louddog:
No one answered my question yet. |
no |
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07/19/2004 03:28:56 PM · #94 |
The two defectors should be brought back to the united states and have the full weight og the law thrown at them.
Even worse how ever is th actions of the Canadian Government and public.
CANADA, leading the world in being just north of the United States.
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07/19/2004 03:35:09 PM · #95 |
Originally posted by Russell2566:
.
CANADA, leading the world in being just north of the United States. |
And even farther left. |
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07/19/2004 03:47:19 PM · #96 |
Maybe Canada has their own recent gripes that would make them a little less likely to want to cooperate with the US on this kind of matter. Such as the recent slap on the wrist given to the Air Force pilot who bombed four of their countrymen out of existence and wounded several others.
//abcnews.go.com/wire/Politics/ap20040719_714.html
I'm not really defending Canada (they don't really need this American's help) so much as I don't really blame 'em if they want to hang onto this guy and grant him asylum.
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07/19/2004 04:07:13 PM · #97 |
| yes, when their term of service is up. we should draft someone else besides current and ex military personel. |
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07/19/2004 04:08:49 PM · #98 |
What really pisses me off about other countries is how like a dog, they expect us to be nice and gentle. And when they poke us with a stick, well we still have to be nice and gentle, and when were not, well pathetic countries that do nothing but ride our coat tails get all up-tigh and tell us, no you can't go do that, your horrible people, your goons, your leader is a hitler, your too arrogant, you should do what we say... well forgive me, but fuck them...
Maygbe a poor anyaligy, but I'm so pissed off at countries like Canada, France, Mexico and Germany, well I don't know what I could do, But I'm sure it would be bad :)
As far as the bombing mistake... What did you expect... If you look at all the facts, I think his punishment was pretty fair. Don't cloud facts and reality with emotion, thats why the left is so screwed up!
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07/19/2004 04:11:52 PM · #99 |
Note to all criminals: Canada will harbor you. Go there ASAP so we don't have to spend our money hunting you down, putting you on trial and keeping you in a prison.
Thanks Canada! |
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07/19/2004 04:32:24 PM · #100 |
Originally posted by Russell2566:
Don't cloud facts and reality with emotion, thats why the left is so screwed up! |
Now that is interesting.
Originally posted by Russell2566:
What really pisses me off about other countries |
Originally posted by Russell2566:
And when they poke us with a stick, well we still have to be nice and gentle, and when were not, well pathetic countries that do nothing but ride our coat tails get all up-tigh and tell us, no you can't go do that, your horrible people, your goons, your leader is a hitler, your too arrogant, you should do what we say... well forgive me, but fuck them... |
Originally posted by Russell2566:
but I'm so pissed off at countries like Canada, France, Mexico and Germany |
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