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06/15/2004 11:43:48 PM · #26 |
Originally posted by digistoune:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
You are certainly free to do as you wish, but what about the client who is into photography?
Regardless, as a pro, you need a backup camera that has most, if not all, of the capability to produce the same quality and variety of images that your primary camera does. What are you going to tell your client who is depending on you to deliver on time if your DRebel locks up/gets dropped/gets peed on by the previous client's dog and shorts out/or is otherwise rendered useless? Even if that backup is a film camera, you need to have one. If you need a backup, why not get a more professional DSLR model and have the DRebel as a backup? You can deduct the depreciation on it (as well as all your other gear). |
Yes, I do agree that a back-up is a good idea and an EOS film body would be a cheap but excellent way to ensure that you could keep on clicking. As for the "pro" client... well there must be some reason why the pro isn't taking the photo himself/herself. Maybe he's not as good with animal portraits and wants to hire a pro to capture that gleam in Fluffy's eye. Furthermore, the pro probably remembers when they were first starting out in the business with less than the best equipment and will therefore understand the use of the dRebel. And if asked, our pro pet photographer could explain that utilizing his very capable but less expensive dRebel allows him to pass significant savings on to his clients without sacrificing image quality. Customers LOVE to hear stuff like that and they also love receiving a good value.
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One shoot with a film camera where the client wants hi res digital files will justify the purchase of a nice film scanner or a DSLR body.
Ever work with an Art Director? They know a lot about photography and what kind of equipment photographers use. They would know the difference. They also have no interest in taking their own photos, that's what the photographer is for.
When I started in the photo business, I had 2 Nikon F3 bodies (at the time, it was the pro camera) with motordrives, 2 50mm f1.4 Nikkor lenses, a 28-70 Nikkor zoom, a 80-200 Nikkor zoom, a 105mm f1.8 Nikkor, a 24mm Nikkor, a 35mm Nikkor and an 85mm Nikkor. I was a poor college student, but that equipment was my bread and butter. When I needed equipment I didn't have, I rented it until I could afford to buy it.
Maybe we are speaking about different clientele, but an A.D. doesn't care that you are saving him a few pennies on this shoot, his client is paying for it anyway, he wants the best possible images, without excuses.
It's like paying for a ride to the airport, and instead of the limo you expect, the driver picks you up in a Yugo.
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06/16/2004 12:13:38 AM · #27 |
This is silly. If anyone is upset that there dog is having it's picture taken with "only" a 300D, they can walk away and you lose a snobby customer. You're better off without them anyway. Don't go out and spend $8,000 on a camera body just to take pictures of people's pets. If the 300D does the job, you're fine.
It's a good business idea and you will make some money off of it if you do it right. If you intend on it being a primary income source, do a business plan. If it's for fun and any money you make is just bonus, go out and have fun. |
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06/16/2004 12:40:24 AM · #28 |
Uh ok. You don't know what you're talking about dude.
Here's a very nicely done professional website, with all the twirls and graphics: //www.ventanaweddings.com that's what i am talking about. Does that look amateurish to you? I think not, great graphics, awesome music.
A lot of pros could've made great images with a Sony F828, but they don't use that camera for the precise reasons that i have mentioned. Equipment isn't everything, but do be prepared when the bride asks "What cameras are you using?" "uhhh Digital Rebel" "Oh! i have one of those? Do you ahve some other more professional cameras?"
Originally posted by digistoune:
Originally posted by paganini:
A glitzy looking website (lots of music, sounds, moving graphics, etc. that eats up bandwidth) with average photos is much better than an average website (boring design) with great photos.
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Whoa there, cowboy! Nothing screams AMATEUR more than websites with anything that whirls, twirls, or otherwise distracts from the point. Take a look at some pro websites... They are clean, elegant, and most importantly, easy to navigate. The images should and have to be the attraction - not some irritating midi playing in the background.
Now, I'm not trying to flame you - please understand that. Yes, presentation is important. As is professionalism and love for the work.
As for the camera, do you know why I notice a pro's camera? Because I'm into photography and I like to look at their gear. Your average individual who's looking to have their pet photographed is going to be a heck of alot more interested in the final image and probably wouldn't give the camera a second look. And if they did, they'd probably comment on what a professional looking 'silver' camera you have. |
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06/16/2004 01:17:15 AM · #29 |
Originally posted by paganini:
Uh ok. You don't know what you're talking about dude.
Here's a very nicely done professional website, with all the twirls and graphics: //www.ventanaweddings.com that's what i am talking about. |
It is a very great looking site..but hard to navigate. You have to llok for where to go
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06/16/2004 06:53:34 AM · #30 |
It's funny how many people commented about the Rebel for pros not being ok.
I have a business, have shot several weddings, graduations, portraits and movie stills. The Rebel has done great through all so far, and not one person has thought of me as less than pro. In fact I have gotten comments of how pro the camera looked actually. Stick a bracket, flash and lens hood on it and it looks as pro as any other. Better yet, it takes the same pic.
Do you really think that someone will know the difference? Not in the pet photography business they won't.
Now when you talk about sports pros that's different. They have 5 foot lenses after all.....
In my state there is a free program for small business advise. Check out where you live to see if there are any programs. You can also check out the IRS site for information.
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06/16/2004 07:07:33 AM · #31 |
Originally posted by paganini:
Here's a very nicely done professional website, with all the twirls and graphics: //www.ventanaweddings.com that's what i am talking about. Does that look amateurish to you? I think not, great graphics, awesome music. |
It looks nice - but it also looks like the designer took NO thought about the viewers.
Flash sites are generally BAD for the internet. They're hard to index, hard to search, hard to use text features like find, proprietory, larger to download, more processor intensive, unviewable for handhelds. |
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06/16/2004 08:09:12 AM · #32 |
Originally posted by PaulMdx:
Originally posted by paganini:
Here's a very nicely done professional website, with all the twirls and graphics: //www.ventanaweddings.com that's what i am talking about. Does that look amateurish to you? I think not, great graphics, awesome music. |
It looks nice - but it also looks like the designer took NO thought about the viewers.
Flash sites are generally BAD for the internet. They're hard to index, hard to search, hard to use text features like find, proprietory, larger to download, more processor intensive, unviewable for handhelds. |
Whoever designed that website did a nice job - it IS pretty. But the first thing I did upon entering was to click "skip intro". Then I had to hunt for information - not good. It reminded me of a GAP commercial - you know, like they are more interested in selling their image than the actual product. Ok, but is this guy going to capture my wedding memories or is he going to be too busy maintaining his 'sophisticated image'? Just a thought and as I'm not familiar with this particular photographer's work I hope everyone understands that I'm talking about his website and not his photographic ability.
Mako posted in this forum to ask for advice about starting a pet photography business. He's not going to be deailing with art directors (different genre) and he's not going to be standing next to a SI photographer sporting (pardon the pun) 8k worth of equipment around his neck.
Regarding how this thread downgraded into a pissing contest about equipment/websites, all I can say is that I hope Mako accepts my sincere apology. I am sorry that your genuine request for help turned into a not very nice debate and I am sorry that my participation in it added to the fire.
Despite all of this, Mako, you did get some good advice and I would encourage you to follow your dream - go for it! And please don't let this thread dissuade you from asking for help in the future. We would all be thrilled to help you on your path to success. Good luck!!! |
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06/16/2004 08:28:27 AM · #33 |
//www.bplans.com/spv/3004/index.cfm?affiliate=
There's a link to a business plan for Pet Photography for you, Mako.
:)
M
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06/16/2004 09:20:49 AM · #34 |
It's funny, that is the very plan i found and am using to cut and paste my way to the plan I must hand in today in school! Also have a presentation...but couldn't find the powerpoint version ;)
As far as the business goes, also take insurance into consideration. Even if you do this on a very small level, all it takes is one accident with an animal or owner and you are in huge trouble.
That is especially if you decide to do anything out f your home!
I am just finishing up a course on small business and writing a business plan and have other information if you need it.
Feel free to PM me.
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06/16/2004 01:10:51 PM · #35 |
Originally posted by paganini:
Uh ok. You don't know what you're talking about dude.
Here's a very nicely done professional website, with all the twirls and graphics: //www.ventanaweddings.com that's what i am talking about. Does that look amateurish to you? I think not, great graphics, awesome music.
A lot of pros could've made great images with a Sony F828, but they don't use that camera for the precise reasons that i have mentioned. Equipment isn't everything, but do be prepared when the bride asks "What cameras are you using?" "uhhh Digital Rebel" "Oh! i have one of those? Do you ahve some other more professional cameras?" |
I don't think you quite get the point of the discussion. The man is *starting* a business. When starting a business, one needs not to worry about having the best of the best equipment. He needs to worry about making a name for himself. This is achieved by consistently producing a valuable product to a relevant marketplace.
Equipment upgrades can come later (and only if the business appears to be viable). He needs to iron out the business plan first, secure some sort of insurance policy (I use the Hartford Financial group, very affordable for the self-employed), apply for a business license, and get a formal strategy for achieving a pre-defined set of goals within a set time-frame (i.e. 50 pets in the first year, grossing at least $20,000). Also, a professional looking website is a necessity, but the example you provided has some serious flaws in it's useability. Flash animations are nice if you don't think anyone uses forward and back buttons, but to me this kind of website would deter far more people from becoming customers than any silver-bodied camera would.
Lastly, I would suggest his first equipment upgrades consist of L-quality lenses and lighting rather than a new body. The incremental improvement in upgrading lenses is likely to be greater than that of upgrading to the 10D. Plus, creating a professional studio environment will be critical for this type of photography.
An eventual upgrade to a professional grade camera is definitely necessary, but not a requirement in the first year of operation. Especially considering the image quality of which the Dig. Rebel is capable. Just my 2 cents. |
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06/16/2004 03:04:53 PM · #36 |
Hmm, grossing $20k with 50 pets, that means, $400 per pet, a bit overly optimistic considering most portrait photographers' packages is around $100-200 sitting fee (usually has prints as well) If you're assuming he's going for the high end market, then you'll run into the problem with digital rebels. Low end, perhaps not, but definitely on the high end market.
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06/16/2004 03:13:36 PM · #37 |
Originally posted by paganini:
Hmm, grossing $20k with 50 pets, that means, $400 per pet, a bit overly optimistic considering most portrait photographers' packages is around $100-200 sitting fee (usually has prints as well) If you're assuming he's going for the high end market, then you'll run into the problem with digital rebels. Low end, perhaps not, but definitely on the high end market. |
High end you'll probably run in to problems with any 35mm gear :)
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06/16/2004 03:53:04 PM · #38 |
:-) Perhaps :-) but they'll definitely make snide remarks if you show up with a rebel. (Better show up with a 1D mark ii....)
I know it has nothing to do with the quality of photos between rebel and 10d or even 1d mark ii for some extent, but good luck convincing clients that. generally speaking, people who pay good money for portraits or weddings know the value of photography otherwise they'd ask their uncle ernie to do it.
Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by paganini:
Hmm, grossing $20k with 50 pets, that means, $400 per pet, a bit overly optimistic considering most portrait photographers' packages is around $100-200 sitting fee (usually has prints as well) If you're assuming he's going for the high end market, then you'll run into the problem with digital rebels. Low end, perhaps not, but definitely on the high end market. |
High end you'll probably run in to problems with any 35mm gear :) |
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06/16/2004 03:53:45 PM · #39 |
I believe PPA offers liability insurance if you're a member.
Originally posted by TerryGee:
It's funny, that is the very plan i found and am using to cut and paste my way to the plan I must hand in today in school! Also have a presentation...but couldn't find the powerpoint version ;)
As far as the business goes, also take insurance into consideration. Even if you do this on a very small level, all it takes is one accident with an animal or owner and you are in huge trouble.
That is especially if you decide to do anything out f your home!
I am just finishing up a course on small business and writing a business plan and have other information if you need it.
Feel free to PM me. |
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06/16/2004 06:41:20 PM · #40 |
Originally posted by paganini:
Hmm, grossing $20k with 50 pets, that means, $400 per pet, a bit overly optimistic considering most portrait photographers' packages is around $100-200 sitting fee (usually has prints as well) If you're assuming he's going for the high end market, then you'll run into the problem with digital rebels. Low end, perhaps not, but definitely on the high end market. |
That was simply an example of a goal the business owner could have. I should have used (e.g.) instead of (i.e.), I guess.
All I'm saying is that the professionalism of a photographer, in my experience (albiet, limited), does not hinge entirely on the color/shape of the camera. If you want to argue that hardware needs to be of the highest quality in order to give the perception of professionalism, then I think you have to continue the discussion to include lighting (softboxes, umbrellas, flashes), tripods, client proofs (printers), portfolios, lenses, filters, background/prop entourage, camera bags, and basically anything else to which a client's eye could wander while you're prepping Felix and Fluffy for the next Bogart/Bergman inspired love scene.
But for me, at least, the most unprofessional photographers I've ever dealt with were unprofessional because of what came out of their mouth, not out of their camera bag. |
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06/16/2004 07:38:19 PM · #41 |
Who cares about "professionalism?" I am talking about making MONEY as a business, i.e. SALES, SALES and SALES. We can argue all day about what "pro" means, but presentation and marketing in business is 90% of the success. You can be awesome photographer but if your presentation and marketing sucks, you'll not make a cent. Part of that presentation and perception to give out to the public is equipment. If Dennis Reggie shows up at a wedding with a disposable camera, what would his client think? even though he could definitely make great images with it, better than most people.
Presentation means -- good equipment, good portfolio showing (in nicely professional bounded books with nice cover and everything - yes, people do judge a book by its cover, not necessarily the contents) prior work and design (only the best should be included), etc. Put it this way, you meet a photog showing you his work -- one guy does it in a nicely bounded book, the other one takes it out of a grocery bag and the photos spill out everywhere -- which one would you prefer? The public, will prefer the first photog.
Marketing means -- a great website (in this day and age and going for the higher end market, whose household would ALL have high speed internet), again this also relates to presentation as websites do show the work, good word of mouth and referrals, advertising in magazines, etc.
The above applies for any business out there, not just photography. For some reason, photographers tend to think that just because their work is good, people would flock over and begging for photos. 90% of the work in the business will be in marketing/presentation. It doesn't matter if the work is in portraits, pets, or weddings. You're doing RETAIL SALES (don't let anyone tell you it's about art, it's ALL about sales, and your ABCs), and presentation/marketing is everything. This isn't stock photo, this is retail sales (you meet the public). Once you get word of mouth referrals, you can cut back on some marketing. But you always need presentation.
BTW, it's funny someone mentinoed the website i gave as an example looks like a "Gap" commercial as that was some sort of a put down -- Gap makes a ton of money, doesn't it? :) You may not think it's "artistic" to have it look like "Gap" but it's successful marketing that counts.
Originally posted by bledford:
All I'm saying is that the professionalism of a photographer, in my experience (albiet, limited), does not hinge entirely on the color/shape of the camera. If you want to argue that hardware needs to be of the highest quality in order to give the perception of professionalism, then I think you have to continue the discussion to include lighting (softboxes, umbrellas, flashes), tripods, client proofs (printers), portfolios, lenses, filters, background/prop entourage, camera bags, and basically anything else to which a client's eye could wander while you're prepping Felix and Fluffy for the next Bogart/Bergman inspired love scene.
But for me, at least, the most unprofessional photographers I've ever dealt with were unprofessional because of what came out of their mouth, not out of their camera bag. |
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06/16/2004 08:11:33 PM · #42 |
Touche. I agree with everything in that last post, Paganini. From someone who seems to have experience with client perceptions of presentation, you probably are more equipped to comment on the tendencies of clientel in this regard.
My simple point is that in freshly starting a business, there are other things to sink money into than immediately upgrading your camera body...including all those great examples of "presentation" that you just provided. And I think most of us would consider the Digital Rebel "good equipment" (but this is probably where we disagree). At least, good enough to start the business off with (which usually starts with pro bono and friends/family type work, in my experience). |
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06/16/2004 08:48:39 PM · #43 |
Originally posted by bledford:
Touche. I agree with everything in that last post, Paganini. From someone who seems to have experience with client perceptions of presentation, you probably are more equipped to comment on the tendencies of clientel in this regard.
My simple point is that in freshly starting a business, there are other things to sink money into than immediately upgrading your camera body...including all those great examples of "presentation" that you just provided. And I think most of us would consider the Digital Rebel "good equipment" (but this is probably where we disagree). At least, good enough to start the business off with (which usually starts with pro bono and friends/family type work, in my experience). |
I would have to consider that word of mouth is going to be that much more critical when a business is in its infancy. A second camera is CRUCIAL, you simply cannot afford the damage done by having a camera crap out at the wrong time like in the middle of a shoot. It happens. It has happened to me, on a location shoot in the middle of a paper mill (a truly nasty environment for people, as well as photo gear) Luckily, I had a 2nd camera body and the shoot went on. If you are going to purchase a second camera, the difference between the cost of a 300D and a 10D is minimal, especially if the cost of the equipment is depreciated over time. I would not recommend a film camers as a backup, since switching from a digital workflow to a film workflow will be clumsy at best and matching output from one to the other could get ugly.
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