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DPChallenge Forums >> General Discussion >> 1 Year's worth of pictures - How many?
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06/13/2004 12:42:16 PM · #1
I just started cataloging all my images off DVD with Extensis' Portfolio 7. I found that in the last 10 months I've shot over 40,000 images. I knew I was running out of hard drive space even as I archived many sessions' worth of images off to DVD but I had no idea how much I'd done. That is over 250Gb of images in less than a year.

I was just pretty excited to actually start to develop ideas of what it is that I've shot (after models I've shot more of my daughter than anything else).

If you're looking for some software to help you catalog this isn't inexpensive but it is very nice to be able to categorize the images in multiple ways and associate them. The software also can burn CDs and DVDs.

Here's hoping I can create some more meaningful art and develop a style in the coming year.

Kev
06/13/2004 01:30:53 PM · #2
Do you usually shoot RAW? Now that you have all your images on CD/DVD, where are you gonna store THOSE? I don't have nearly as many as you do and I'm running out of room to store CDs. I keep them in their case and just stack them up on the desk, but that's not gonna cut it for much longer. Any ideas?

June
06/14/2004 08:55:06 AM · #3
I went to my local Staples (Office Depot....) store and bought one of those zipped CD binders. They have quite a selection now. The one I bought will store 224 CDs.

I'm using iMatch to catalog my photos. I number each CD and binder slot in which it resides, then reference both the CD name and number in the cataloging software. I now can locate a photo faster now - it was quite painful to look for something with a 2-foot stack on my desk!
06/14/2004 09:11:33 AM · #4
Just under a year with the 5400, and its 6071 shots downloaded so far.

E
06/14/2004 09:12:51 AM · #5
I'm just programming my own web that has all of my photos so I can access all of my photos where ever I am in the world. It stores thumbnail, websized image (600x400) and the orginal file.

I have not finished programming this web but when I have done that I'm thinking of find someone to translate the whole site to multi-language so people around the world can see my collection of photos.

I know have about 70.000 photos in my photoalbum.
06/14/2004 09:30:20 AM · #6
Originally posted by chiqui74:

Do you usually shoot RAW? Now that you have all your images on CD/DVD, where are you gonna store THOSE?


June,

I backup my originals to DVD. I then catalog the DVD into Extensis Portfolio so that when I'm looking for an image in my catalog and I double-click the thumbnail so that I can edit the image, Portfolio tells me which DVD to insert (handy little feature).

Once I stop by the store and pickup a stack of DVD's tomorrow I will finish triplicating my collection. One set of DVD's stays at home for easy retrieval. Another set goes to the (supposedly) fire-proof safety deposit box at the bank (but that's getting to be another headache 'cause it'll only hold so many) and the last set goes to the copyright office of the US government along with a $30 (USD) check to register all 40K images at one time. The reason for this is that under US law any image taken is immediately copyrighted by the taker of the image and the copyright holder can sue for lost value if someone takes that image and uses it without the express consent of the copyright holder but the copyright holder cannot sue for legal fees or punative damages unless he has registered his copyright with this government agency for a fee of $30.

That protects my images if my house burns, the bank burns or someone steals my images and uses them from the legal standpoint of a country that honors US copyright laws.

Kev
06/14/2004 11:41:11 AM · #7
About 30 good images.

Takes up a CD-R :)
06/14/2004 11:44:20 AM · #8
Originally posted by KevinRiggs:

Originally posted by chiqui74:

Do you usually shoot RAW? Now that you have all your images on CD/DVD, where are you gonna store THOSE?


June,

I backup my originals to DVD. I then catalog the DVD into Extensis Portfolio so that when I'm looking for an image in my catalog and I double-click the thumbnail so that I can edit the image, Portfolio tells me which DVD to insert (handy little feature).

Once I stop by the store and pickup a stack of DVD's tomorrow I will finish triplicating my collection. One set of DVD's stays at home for easy retrieval. Another set goes to the (supposedly) fire-proof safety deposit box at the bank (but that's getting to be another headache 'cause it'll only hold so many) and the last set goes to the copyright office of the US government along with a $30 (USD) check to register all 40K images at one time. The reason for this is that under US law any image taken is immediately copyrighted by the taker of the image and the copyright holder can sue for lost value if someone takes that image and uses it without the express consent of the copyright holder but the copyright holder cannot sue for legal fees or punative damages unless he has registered his copyright with this government agency for a fee of $30.

That protects my images if my house burns, the bank burns or someone steals my images and uses them from the legal standpoint of a country that honors US copyright laws.

Kev


Do you send every photo you take to the copyright office, or just the good ones?

June
06/14/2004 11:58:09 AM · #9
Originally posted by KevinRiggs:

in the last 10 months I've shot over 40,000 images. I knew I was running out of hard drive space even as I archived many sessions' worth of images off to DVD but I had no idea how much I'd done. That is over 250Gb of images in less than a year.


Throw away. I´ve no doubt that you are a good photographer but pick your best and throw away your others. You could end up with few hundreds of good images which isnt that bad for a ten month period.
06/14/2004 12:41:22 PM · #10
I don't throw away anything. "Value" and "worth" are subjective words and, therefore, any discussion of what is "worthwhile" or "valuable" must by definition be subjective. For me, the cost (which is a concrete number) is relatively small so the "value" of saving all to DVD is relatively high. I keep everything. Will I use them in the future? Who knows. At least this way I know that I have the ability to and perhaps one day when software has advanced or my photo editing skills have matured more I may be able to take pieces of some less than optimal photo and produce a piece of art that I'm satisfied with. Sure only one out of every 100 or 1000 or 10000 is a "keeper" but beauty is in the eye of the beholder as is value so for now, I keep everything.

Also because I've found that the images I like and that I choose to edit and post both on DPC, PBase and OneModelPlace are not usually the ones that either my mentors, my wife or the models I work with choose I decided to send everything to be copyrighted and that way I never have to worry that one of my images will be used without some recourse for me (or even the model in the shot).

This is just my approach.

Kev
06/14/2004 12:49:30 PM · #11
Just curious, in terms of value or 'damages' do you have to be actually earning money before you could claim damages of a particular sum from usage that was in violation of copyright ?

If someone just uses it without your permission, what is the sum of damages ? I can see that if they sell it without permission, you might be due the value they got from selling it, but if you don't charge for your work, can you be damaged by someone using something you might have sold them if they asked ?

Any idea how much you've made from all those images you've paid to get copyrighted ? Any idea how much you plan on making from them ? Value isn't just an intangible, personal figure after all...
06/14/2004 01:11:05 PM · #12
Actually you have helped to make part of my point. Value is subjective and, therefore, it would have to be argued in a court as to what the value of each shot was. If I agreed to license an image for $30 for a non-exclusive license and someone else licensed a similar image to the same buyer for $300 then the difference has to do with perceived value and what the seller is willing to hold out for. Since I haven't sold many images (and easily not a significant percentage of my overall work) it would have to be argued until either both parties could agree or an arbitrary judge would have to make a ruling as to the "value" of said license. Value is an arbitrary and subjective term. Just because I haven't licensed a particular image doesn't mean it has no value as a commercial product. That may be an indicator of the commercial value but it is not the final point in the argument.

As for the point of spending $30 to secure the copyright that extends beyond the point of simply recouping any perceived market losses to recouping some market credibility by protecting my name and artistic expression and then even further to the ability to be remunerated for my legal expenses.

The original intent of this post was to comment on the volume of shots I've taken and inquire as to how prolific other DPC photographers are. It seems to me that 40,000 6.3 megapixel images is quite a lot for a 10 month period of time. I hadn't truly known how many I'd shot until I started cataloging them. I wonder how many other people shoot and statistically how many of those other people keep. I keep all of mine for reasons I've typed in this thread. I've also been pretty straightforward about the steps I go through and the rationale behind it. It seems petty of you to try and poke holes in someone else's workflow. Why not post yours and explain what you do with your work and why? That was what I meant to foster when I wrote how many images I'd processed and what I was doing with them.

Kev
06/14/2004 02:13:13 PM · #13
You are averaging about 1,000 shots a week. How do you find the time? Single, condo living individual?
I suppose if i gave up DPC visits, I'd have tome for 500 shots.. LOL
06/14/2004 02:30:04 PM · #14
Originally posted by KevinRiggs:



The original intent of this post was to comment on the volume of shots I've taken and inquire as to how prolific other DPC photographers are. It seems to me that 40,000 6.3 megapixel images is quite a lot for a 10 month period of time. I hadn't truly known how many I'd shot until I started cataloging them. I wonder how many other people shoot and statistically how many of those other people keep. I keep all of mine for reasons I've typed in this thread. I've also been pretty straightforward about the steps I go through and the rationale behind it. It seems petty of you to try and poke holes in someone else's workflow. Why not post yours and explain what you do with your work and why? That was what I meant to foster when I wrote how many images I'd processed and what I was doing with them.

Kev


I assumed you posted it as a point of discussion - if so, why assume it is petty if it gets discussed - isn't that the point of sharing it in the first place ?

I asked a question about the merit of going the additional steps to register images for copyright - they are after all already all copyrighted, and you are already legally protected from unauthorised usage, without registering them. I am curious what the additional value of registration is, when as you mentioned, you do not make significant money from those images - which I would assume would rapidly be used in legal action to illustrate the value of those images. I still honestly don't see the value of registering images with the copyright office, for people who do not currently make money from those shots. I honestly don't think the question is petty.

I also do not understand the distinction the copyright office makes over collections of works (block registration of 40,000 images) and single images (same charge) - do you have to have all 40,000 images stolen before you have a realistic case ? Their web site is far from clear, though I'm sure they'll take your money in any case.

I've posted mine workflow several times in the past and have much of it available on my web site too.
06/14/2004 02:32:28 PM · #15
At 40,000 shots in the year, are you planning on replacing your shutter mechanism soon, or upgrading to a new camera ? :)
06/14/2004 02:39:50 PM · #16
I've had my 10D for about a month now and I've only shot about 450 photos. If you extrapolate that to a 12 month period it's around 5400. Now, if I go on a monthly LA photo safari with fellow LA DPC members, that monthly number can certainly get larger. I wouldn't mind a monthly DPC meet as I would love to learn from other members and just to see more of LA while on foot.
06/14/2004 02:42:57 PM · #17
Workflow du jour

Shoot images, mostly in RAW, or JPEG depending on event.

Download with a USB2.0 cardreader, using Breezebrowser Download Pro. Format the cards in the camera prior to storage for the next shoot.

First pass edit with Breezebrowser.
Delete the _bad_ shots. Note potential keepers, cull some more.
Left with final set of okay to good shots.

Second pass edit with CaptureOne and/or Photoshop File Browser
Going back and forth a bit here now, with a complete RAW workflow, CaptureOne is great and also a more flexible RAW converter than the photoshop RAW in my opinion (by design really) I like most of the results from CaptureOne output, over photoshop, but in particular red handling is a bit nasty.
In either product, tag good shots, rate and process results. In captureOne perform needed white balance adjustments, usually never use the exposure or levels/ curves adjustments though.
Usually after the good shots are tagged, go through a rating process to select images for final editing. Typical flow is to go from 300 original images, to maybe 200 after initial removal of test shots, bad shots etc. Then maybe 20-40 good shots with between 5 and 10 final edited shots. I used to edit a whole lot more and show lots to anyone who wanted to see them, but quality, like value is a perception that can be managed. With careful editing you can stop making people decide what was good and bad themselves and only show the good stuff. For shoots for a person, they get involved around the 2nd editing stage.

At each stage, the tools are set to move images to a DELETED directory, rather than delete them, to avoid mistakes.

Photoshop
Usually very minimal processing, other than maybe some slight levels, curves and saturation adjustment. Perhaps some healing brush for minor spot clean up. Images that require heavy work usually don't make it this far in my editing process. I used to try and save more images and worked on them a lot in Photoshop - thankfully I don't find that so common now (after a year of focusing on getting the shot right in camera to avoid having to do a lot of editing)

Sharpening using fred miranda's sharpening actions. Resize to output destination, profile again according to distination. For prints, just sharpen and save for most 8x10s or less. Print in QImage Pro.
For web or projector, resize accordingly, save as JPEGs, typically with Save For Web, using 'optimise to file size' options.

For sports/ event type photography, similar, but at the tag/ select good ones stage, I typically use a batch action to create the final JPEGs.

Storage: I use Archive Creator to burn DVDs with HTML indices of the files that I want to keep. Typically I keep all the images after the first pass through out the bad images edit. (everything but those in the DELETED directories)

As to usage/ copyright etc - the images are all copyrighted as soon as I take them. I do not register them as they have no value that I am interested in seeking damages for improper use. If they are used without permission, legally I can stop the usage, without registering. Or I can even register after the fact. Though first I'd probably send a letter asking them to stop using it (which has worked in several previous cases where my images have been used without my permision)

I offer them for free to any one who asks and that I approve of their usage. I've had several magazine covers and articles in magazines for non-profit organisations and non-professional sports press by this approach.

On other occasions I go out and shoot exactly one image. It can take me up to 2 or 3 hours to get the right shot before I'll take it, then go home. The discipline is quite interesting, certainly compared to the shooting as many as possible random crapshoot. Many of the great early landscape photographers often had only one chance to get it right for a particular image - it can certainly focus the mind more.

On other occasions, I'm more inspired by some National Geographic photographers style of 'sketching' with a camera, taking many many shots that have no value other than as sketches of ideas, or outlines of shots that I might take at some point in the future. Some of those get printed out small with notations and stored in my photo journal as indications of progression or thumbnails of ideas and techniques to try later.

Message edited by author 2004-06-14 15:12:33.
06/14/2004 03:46:59 PM · #18
Originally posted by Gordon:

At 40,000 shots in the year, are you planning on replacing your shutter mechanism soon, or upgrading to a new camera ? :)


Both. When necessary I plan on having my 10D serviced but I don't plan on shooting any less. I find that the more I shoot the more experience I have to judge how to take shots that people seem to appreciate.

I'm very interested to see what Canon cooks up for the inevitable upgrade to the 1Ds. I don't shoot much sports and if I have to choose what type of work I enjoy doing it just doesn't trip my trigger. Shooting fashion or glamour sets with model however is a fun experience for me (and it seems like most of the models have enjoyed it as well).

Originally posted by Bestagents:


You are averaging about 1,000 shots a week. How do you find the time? Single, condo living individual?
I suppose if i gave up DPC visits, I'd have tome for 500 shots.. LOL

Actually just a little under 1,000 per week. Because I don't have the natural talent that many other users on here have and I haven't spent time cultivating any artistic expression over many years I decided when I purchased the camera that I was going to actively seek out opportunities to shoot something that I wanted so for several months I would take one night a week and drive about 350 miles round trip through the backroads of north Georgia and shoot some rural settings trying to get used to composition, exposure trade-offs and the camera. I'm married with a young daughter and those trips have given way to shooting fashion, casual or glamour sets with aspiring models from OneModelPlace.com. Sometimes I shoot with one model every week or two and sometimes I shoot with 2 or even 3 models in a week. Each session generally yields between 500 and 800 frames. Then you add to that a vacation or two and a few weddings here and there and voila I'm digging through 40,000 frames. Sometimes my wife will grab a seat beside me and critique my work before I ever post it for anyone else to see and I really like those times but she gets tired looking through so many shots where I initially was just changing settings on the camera and taking the same shot over and over or changing the composition and keeping what I thought were the best exposure settings.

Kev
06/14/2004 04:05:03 PM · #19
Originally posted by KevinRiggs:

Sometimes my wife will grab a seat beside me and critique my work before I ever post it for anyone else to see and I really like those times but she gets tired looking through so many shots where I initially was just changing settings on the camera and taking the same shot over and over or changing the composition and keeping what I thought were the best exposure settings.

Kev


I've found something like ULead DVD Photoshow can be great too - I'll take the set of good images, batch process them to a suitable size and burn a CD-RW that I can play on a DVD-player. That way I can give my wife a preview of the shots in a more comfortable evironment (i.e., not in front of the computer)

The trick I find is to really pick _one_ of any particular theme, rather than the bracketed versions and so on. Add in some cheesily appropriate music and you are good to go.

I get feedback on the less technical stuff, composition, feel etc, without boring her to death with shots playing with exposure or camera features.

I'm half considering a Tivo Series 2 or hacking up my existing Tivo to network it to let me do this in an even simpler way, but the DVD slideshows work pretty well so far.
06/14/2004 04:24:39 PM · #20
Now that idea I really like. I finally burned a DVD with music in the background for the grandparents but that was only of my daughter so it was more personally motivated than artistically. I'll have to try the video CD montage.

One thing I have liked about my wife's opinions is that with a series of 15 or 20 similar shots I'll select one and invariably she'll pick out a slightly different one. I'll print both as a 4x6 or something, take 'em to work and several co-workers generally agree that they like the one she selected better. I don't get it but its a pretty consistent kind of thing.

I do find that its true that if you hand someone a set of photos that you think are good (especially if you've gotten a little feedback from some people whose opinions you respect) then clients tend to be very appreciative of the images. It's difficult for me sometimes to go from looking at 750 frames of some model and wondering if frame 450 wasn't just a little better than frame 451 or 452 and then realize that to the model, they're all pretty good and if they have NOTHING in their portfolio then the work I give them is a starting point.

Kev
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