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06/03/2004 11:34:50 PM · #26 |
Riggs: not trying to be offensive, just to clarify for all the people not familiar with the trial ... both of them, and because I think precision (especially in legal matters) is usually a good idea.
I was also suggesting that Laci (or at least her character) may indeed be "put on trial" by the defense. |
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06/03/2004 11:44:19 PM · #27 |
I always find it ironic how people say they dislike politicians because they are fake. Yet, when one speaks their mind, or acts human, they are slammed for not acting more like a politician. :)
Bush has been caught on tape making remarks and ohhh..cursing before too. Big deal.
Not that I'm a big fan of either of them.
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06/04/2004 12:18:44 AM · #28 |
| This reminds me of 1983 when Harold Washington was running for mayor of Chicago. Washington had been indicted by the state of Illinois for failure to file state income tax returns for several years. One day he was giving a campaign speech and some white guy in the audience heckled him about his tax problems. Washington, who did not like the majority of caucasian people and was not shy about demonstrating that, said to the heckler, "shut up, you stupid m****r f****r". This showed up on the 10:00 network news as they had covered the speech. The obscenity was bleeped out but even so you could still faintly hear the magic words and you could definitly read Washington's lips. What struck me was the way all the newscasters, as well as the print media, just completely ignored Washington's potty mouthed remarks. I then thought about the universal outrage which would have followed if one of the caucasian candidates for mayor that year, such as Jane Byrne, Bernard Epton, or Richard M. Daley had sworn like that at a black heckler. The media would have forced them out of the mayoral race. It seems like candidates for public office are held to vastly differing standards of civil behavior depending on where they reside in the political spectrum. |
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06/04/2004 12:24:23 AM · #29 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
I would like to take a poll to see how many of those kids had/had not seen someone give someone else "the bird" before ... my own personal guess is that more than half can do it equally well with either hand ... |
no doubt. anytime i hear anyone say anything having to do w/ censoring language for children i like to ask "does your child go to public school?". my potty mouth is a direct result of my going to public school, and i quit in 9th grade! i mean, have you guys ever been on a public school bus? it rivals a saprano's episode..
you know what school teaches best? how to be influenced by peer pressure and how to take orders by people you dont like or respect. |
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06/04/2004 01:05:22 AM · #30 |
Originally posted by MadMordegon:
you know what school teaches best? how to be influenced by peer pressure and how to take orders by people you dont like or respect. |
That's the problem. Parents don't teach their children to "like or respect" anyone therefore they don't. It's not up to the school to teach your kid about peer pressure or respect for elders, it's up to parents to do this. I'm curious, did your parents allow you to cuss in your home when you were a kid? If so, there's the problem right there and that's why this happens in school and why kids have no respect.
When I was a kid (not that long ago) if any us where disrespectfull to elders (much less cussing at them) we would be punished. Today that kind of disipline just doesn't exist to a large extent, so you have all this crap going on in school.
Message edited by author 2004-06-04 01:06:37. |
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06/04/2004 11:36:27 AM · #31 |
Originally posted by Riggs:
As for Gordons post about the dude being a real a-hole> I have no doubt he is. And thats actually reason to like Kerry more. At least he decided on a finger and did not flip flop on what finger to use. :) |
My theory is that Thing crawled out of Lurch's pocket and flipped the guy off.
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06/04/2004 11:48:52 AM · #32 |
No sugar coating below:
Oh my gosh, you actually believe that the media would report that the wonderful Democratic candidate is imperfect? Haha!!! Now Bush on the other hand would get slammed, but not Kerry.
As for whether or not he did it, whatever, I still think he's an idiot.
If he did flick of someone in front of children, he is retarded. Whether or not the guy was saying worse things, it doesn't excuse Kerry for being immature.
Oh, and public schools and cursing. Yes, they do teach you how to curse, but that doesn't mean that you have to curse. Been there done that. Yes, I'm still fighting the urge to curse when I'm upset, but I'm not doing it nearly as often as I did when I let the others in my public school influence me.
The biggest problem I've seen with that is also what ChrisW pointed out, parents let them do it at home so they do it later. My parents would have killed me if they knew I ever cursed and that has been a huge deterrent in keeping me from doing it.
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06/04/2004 12:32:39 PM · #33 |
LOL LOL LOL...that is so funny...I love it. Now Kerry has got my vote for sure.
Originally posted by thelsel:
Originally posted by Riggs:
As for Gordons post about the dude being a real a-hole> I have no doubt he is. And thats actually reason to like Kerry more. At least he decided on a finger and did not flip flop on what finger to use. :) |
My theory is that Thing crawled out of Lurch's pocket and flipped the guy off.
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07/01/2004 02:13:44 PM · #34 |
Another fine role model ?
Least there were no children present... and he almost even acknowledges that it might actually have happened, breaking standard protocol of denying everything possible.
Message edited by author 2004-07-01 14:17:40.
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07/01/2004 02:22:34 PM · #35 |
In a similar vein, here's a great picture of Vice President Nelson Rockefeller in 1976, responding to student demonstrators. A great photojournalistic shot
Full article on the history of the 'bird' here
Message edited by author 2004-07-01 14:23:55.
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07/01/2004 02:28:33 PM · #36 |
Originally posted by MadMordegon:
anytime i hear anyone say anything having to do w/ censoring language for children i like to ask "does your child go to public school?". my potty mouth is a direct result of my going to public school, and i quit in 9th grade! i mean, have you guys ever been on a public school bus? it rivals a saprano's episode.. |
And this is why it is up to adults, both family and public figures, to try and show the children that there is an alternative to cursing, that it's alright to get mad and angry without resorting to foul language.
Whether you can hear this language "all over the place" or not, people like Kerry have an obligation to put forth a better face on humanity, even if they curse like a sailor in private.
drg |
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07/01/2004 02:39:01 PM · #37 |
Cheeny says the F word in the senate, amongst adults, and it's world news. Kerry does this in front of kids and it's kept quiet.
Hmmmmmmmmm. |
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07/01/2004 02:53:37 PM · #38 |
Originally posted by ChrisW123:
That's the problem. Parents don't teach their children to "like or respect" anyone therefore they don't. It's not up to the school to teach your kid about peer pressure or respect for elders, it's up to parents to do this. I'm curious, did your parents allow you to cuss in your home when you were a kid? If so, there's the problem right there and that's why this happens in school and why kids have no respect.
When I was a kid (not that long ago) if any us where disrespectfull to elders (much less cussing at them) we would be punished. Today that kind of disipline just doesn't exist to a large extent, so you have all this crap going on in school. |
The kid issue:
I couldn't agree more! My 8 yr. old has had all kinds of problems at school with kids who just weren't taught respect of any kind. And when we go out, I am constantly appalled at how kids conduct themselves. Man, if I'd pulled that kind of crap when I was a kid my mother would have seen to it that I would not be alive to type this post today!
And speaking of crap or whatever your favorite curse at the moment... There's a time and a place. Our political leaders should realize that and behave accordingly.
The political issue:
Our choices for the upcoming election are Kerry or Bush. IMO we're screwed either way and I have grave concerns about the future of this country. I'm waiting for the American people to stand up say, "Excuse me, but you're simply not qualified to run this country and we are not going to settle." It would be interesting to see what would happen if we made such a united appeal. We might actually get a president in the white house. |
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07/01/2004 03:02:11 PM · #39 |
Originally posted by louddog:
Cheeny says the F word in the senate, amongst adults, and it's world news. Kerry does this in front of kids and it's kept quiet.
Hmmmmmmmmm. |
because it didn't happen ?
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07/01/2004 03:03:43 PM · #40 |
Originally posted by digistoune:
The political issue:
Our choices for the upcoming election are Kerry or Bush. IMO we're screwed either way and I have grave concerns about the future of this country. I'm waiting for the American people to stand up say, "Excuse me, but you're simply not qualified to run this country and we are not going to settle." It would be interesting to see what would happen if we made such a united appeal. We might actually get a president in the white house. |
On the bright side, you at least get to choose
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07/01/2004 03:23:24 PM · #41 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by louddog:
Cheeny says the F word in the senate, amongst adults, and it's world news. Kerry does this in front of kids and it's kept quiet.
Hmmmmmmmmm. |
because it didn't happen ? |
Kinda depends on interpretation. If the hand gesture means "f*** you", and you consider sign language to be equivalent to "speech", then, yes, he did "say" it in front of kids ( especially if they were deaf kids ).
:-}
Ron |
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07/01/2004 03:33:05 PM · #42 |
Originally posted by RonB:
Kinda depends on interpretation. If the hand gesture means "f*** you", and you consider sign language to be equivalent to "speech", then, yes, he did "say" it in front of kids ( especially if they were deaf kids ).
:-}
Ron |
I never even found anything beyond one web site claiming he even did that. Plenty of other web sites pointed back to newsmax's claim, but it seems pretty unlikely that only one outlet in the whole of the US noticed, given the following of video and still photographers that I'm sure Kerry has, particularly at such photo ops as this would be (national monument/ war memorial, school children, sounds like a top notch photo op for any politician)
It seems doubtful that every photographer and journalist in the US is part of the liberal mafia
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07/01/2004 03:57:40 PM · #43 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by RonB:
Kinda depends on interpretation. If the hand gesture means "f*** you", and you consider sign language to be equivalent to "speech", then, yes, he did "say" it in front of kids ( especially if they were deaf kids ).
:-}
Ron |
I never even found anything beyond one web site claiming he even did that. Plenty of other web sites pointed back to newsmax's claim, but it seems pretty unlikely that only one outlet in the whole of the US noticed, given the following of video and still photographers that I'm sure Kerry has, particularly at such photo ops as this would be (national monument/ war memorial, school children, sounds like a top notch photo op for any politician)
It seems doubtful that every photographer and journalist in the US is part of the liberal mafia |
Yeah, I never found confirmation beyond the Newsmax article, either. And the accuser is one of questionable integrity, as well. So I discount it as a probably-never-happened event.
That being said, I never saw or heard of Kerry either acknowledging or denying the claim - so I suspect that no mainstream media folks ever confronted him with it directly. In the Cheney case, however, the mainstream media DID confront him with the accusation directly.
To his credit, Cheney says that he probably DID say something like that, though he could have easily denied it - the aides who claimed he said it couldn't even agree on what he said.
Anyway, I think that the media gave Kerry a pass, but didn't do so for Cheney. I don't care for that kind of journalism, though I'm not surprised.
Ron
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07/01/2004 04:06:01 PM · #44 |
Originally posted by RonB:
Yeah, I never found confirmation beyond the Newsmax article, either. And the accuser is one of questionable integrity, as well. So I discount it as a probably-never-happened event.
That being said, I never saw or heard of Kerry either acknowledging or denying the claim - so I suspect that no mainstream media folks ever confronted him with it directly. In the Cheney case, however, the mainstream media DID confront him with the accusation directly.
To his credit, Cheney says that he probably DID say something like that, though he could have easily denied it - the aides who claimed he said it couldn't even agree on what he said.
Anyway, I think that the media gave Kerry a pass, but didn't do so for Cheney. I don't care for that kind of journalism, though I'm not surprised.
Ron |
Though, if the balance of evidence is it never happened and is likely to just be made up, would it make sense that Kerry denying something that never actually happened be not newsworthy ?
And perhaps that Cheney almost admiting to something he actually did do, might actually be newsworthy, given that he was swearing 'at work' ?
You might think of it as bias that in one case they didn't report the denial of something that didn't happen, and reporting the confirmation of something that did, but to me it just seems like reporting events and ignoring fabrications.
There are plenty of things that never happen that fail to get reported, every day. It isn't a liberal plot to hide the non-news of events that may have happened in parallel universes. I noticed that the news totally ignored the fact that the sun hasn't imploded - again! Also, completely missing is the reports on how Bush has not signed yet another treaty with Lilliput to give equal rights to short people. Obviously more bias...
They should probably question Kerry about this as well - after all, it's on a web site - it must be true.
Message edited by author 2004-07-01 16:16:08.
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07/01/2004 04:25:22 PM · #45 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
Though, if the balance of evidence is it never happened and is likely to just be made up, would it make sense that Kerry denying something that never actually happened be not newsworthy ?
And perhaps that Cheney almost admiting to something he actually did do, might actually be newsworthy, given that he was swearing 'at work' ?
You might think of it as bias that in one case they didn't report the denial of something that didn't happen, and reporting the confirmation of something that did, but to me it just seems like reporting events and ignoring fabrications.
There are plenty of things that never happen that fail to get reported, every day. It isn't a liberal plot to hide the non-news of events that may have happened in parallel universes. I noticed that the news totally ignored the fact that the sun hasn't imploded - again! Also, completely missing is the reports on how Bush has not signed yet another treaty with Lilliput to give equal rights to short people. Obviously more bias... |
Newsworthy, as in several days worth, a resounding NO. But there "should" have been someone, somewhere that asked him flat out if he did it - and printed the "official" response, just to put the accusation to bed. Other than the ABK extremists, no one really believed the story after day-one anyway.
As for the Sun and Lilliput stories, no one has publicly made those accusations, so no denial is necessary. But the Kerry Bird incident WAS reported, so a response would have been indicated.
One type of bias exists when one ( favored ) party/individual is given a pass for the same type of action/statement that another ( disfavored ) party/individual is not given a pass for.
Ron
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07/01/2004 04:40:28 PM · #46 |
Originally posted by RonB:
As for the Sun and Lilliput stories, no one has publicly made those accusations, so no denial is necessary. But the Kerry Bird incident WAS reported, so a response would have been indicated.
One type of bias exists when one ( favored ) party/individual is given a pass for the same type of action/statement that another ( disfavored ) party/individual is not given a pass for.
Ron |
You ignored the other link which was 'reported' on a web site - that has just as much credence as the previous 'report'. Yes the onion is known for being factually inaccurate. It is not alone.
You describe a 'bias' as a pass for the same type of action/statement that another is not given a pass for. But in this case, the reality is one was given a pass for not doing the same type of action/statement that the other did do. It is not exactly a subtle distinction between the two.
Though it seems that the non-event was reported, including Rush Limbaugh's web site faking a version of it
Limbaugh's site
I mainly find it funny that just as many liberal web sites accuse the media of a right wing bias, as right wing web sites accuse the media of a liberal bias. It would be a whole lot more reasonable if outlets like Fox news would stop pretending to not be right wing and just go with it. Plenty of well respected news outlets do great journalism without any pretence at being unbiased. It seems to be a peculiarly American trait to pretend to not have an agenda while obviously pushing one, on either side of the political divide, be it Fox's right wing views or CNN's centralist approach.
Message edited by author 2004-07-01 16:54:35.
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07/01/2004 05:45:54 PM · #47 |
Originally posted by digistoune:
The political issue:
Our choices for the upcoming election are Kerry or Bush. IMO we're screwed either way and I have grave concerns about the future of this country. I'm waiting for the American people to stand up say, "Excuse me, but you're simply not qualified to run this country and we are not going to settle." It would be interesting to see what would happen if we made such a united appeal. We might actually get a president in the white house. |
i dont think that will happen unless a MAJOR change happens that wake people up. as long as there is partisan nonsense and rich/ignorent people that like things the way they are and do not want to move forward, we will have to be FORCED to change.
"A conservative is a man with two perfectly good legs who, however, has never learned how to walk forward."
-Franklin Delano Roosevelt
"The radical of one century is the conservative of the next. The radical invents the views. When he has worn them out the conservative adopts them."
-Mark Twain
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07/01/2004 05:50:11 PM · #48 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
I mainly find it funny that just as many liberal web sites accuse the media of a right wing bias, as right wing web sites accuse the media of a liberal bias. It would be a whole lot more reasonable if outlets like Fox news would stop pretending to not be right wing and just go with it. Plenty of well respected news outlets do great journalism without any pretence at being unbiased. It seems to be a peculiarly American trait to pretend to not have an agenda while obviously pushing one, on either side of the political divide, be it Fox's right wing views or CNN's centralist approach. |
i would have to agree there. |
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07/01/2004 06:11:23 PM · #49 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
You describe a 'bias' as a pass for the same type of action/statement that another is not given a pass for. But in this case, the reality is one was given a pass for not doing the same type of action/statement that the other did do. It is not exactly a subtle distinction between the two. |
Ah, but the fact that Cheney "did do" it wasn't apparent until AFTER the media pressed him for a response. Until then, it was just an accusation. They never pressed Kerry for a response, even though there was an accusation of that incident as well.
Originally posted by Gordon:
I mainly find it funny that just as many liberal web sites accuse the media of a right wing bias, as right wing web sites accuse the media of a liberal bias. It would be a whole lot more reasonable if outlets like Fox news would stop pretending to not be right wing and just go with it. Plenty of well respected news outlets do great journalism without any pretence at being unbiased. It seems to be a peculiarly American trait to pretend to not have an agenda while obviously pushing one, on either side of the political divide, be it Fox's right wing views or CNN's centralist approach. |
Actually, the statistics bear out that the media, in general ( and including CNN ), IS biased toward the liberal/democratic side. In the latest poll done by the ASNE ( American Society of Newspaper Editors ) the following results were recorded for political orientation by a representative sample ( 1996 ) of newsroom employees:
Democrat or Liberal = 36%
Republican or Conservative = 8%
Lean toward Democrat/Liberal = 25%
Lean to Republican/conservative = 7%
Independent = 24%
Hence the total of those Democratic/Liberal or Leaning = 61%
the total of those Republican/conservative or Leaning = 15%
the total of those Independent = 24%
Namely Republican/conservatives are outnumbered by Democratic/liberals by a margin of over 4 to 1.
And I hope that your not going to accuse the ASNE of bias in their reporting.
Ron |
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07/01/2004 07:15:18 PM · #50 |
Originally posted by RonB:
Actually, the statistics bear out that the media, in general ( and including CNN ), IS biased toward the liberal/democratic side. In the latest poll done by the ASNE ( American Society of Newspaper Editors ) the following results were recorded for political orientation by a representative sample ( 1996 ) of newsroom employees:
Democrat or Liberal = 36%
Republican or Conservative = 8%
Lean toward Democrat/Liberal = 25%
Lean to Republican/conservative = 7%
Independent = 24%
Hence the total of those Democratic/Liberal or Leaning = 61%
the total of those Republican/conservative or Leaning = 15%
the total of those Independent = 24%
Namely Republican/conservatives are outnumbered by Democratic/liberals by a margin of over 4 to 1.
And I hope that your not going to accuse the ASNE of bias in their reporting.
Ron |
if those numbers are even half right, thats still a large gap. makes ya wonder why that is.. does that mean the conservative "skrew ups" as of late are getting more media attention because inherently more people want things the more liberal/democrat side? does that mean the republicans are out numbered in the country? maybe the government is truly corrupt and somehow in control by a certain group, and bashing the conservatives/republicans either distracts the public or works into an overall plan benefiting them somehow? maybe the republican party just sucks and people are over it and news outlets give what people want? possibly an underground movement by democrats/liberals to deface the republican party?
or just maybe, since we only ever really have 2 choices, it pits both sides squarely against each other because of lack of competition. you have no real other party so often your choices are 'bad or worse?'! your born and bred pretty much one way or the other. i think when it comes to voting most people mostly go with there party side, disregarding the actual challenger. and why the hell does it have to be a competition of sides and money and advertising, slander towards the other candidate, tricks and foul play. why dont they just stfu w/ the fighting and do public debates and 'question and answer' public assemblies.
im not sure what to think but personally, but i do like the news being hard on the administration. when you run the most powerful country in the world, with the best technology and almost unlimited resources.. you need to be on point! and right now the administration has more bad stuff going on than good, and they wont admit it. it allways seems like 'bob and weave'. |
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