Bring back the Grain - DPChallenge Forums

Pentax DA 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 AF

05/21/2004 11:24:11 PM · #1

In the spirit of the comment made earlier today, I propose a "grain challenge". I want to see images with some texture to them!

Clara

faidoi

Pentax K10D

05/21/2004 11:27:22 PM · #2

Yes, please :)

Brad

Olympus OM-D E-M1

Olympus 40-150mm f/2.8 PRO M.Zuiko

05/21/2004 11:37:57 PM · #3

Like this?

Sometimes it's needed.

jrs915

Canon EOS-300D Rebel

05/22/2004 12:14:38 AM · #4

Originally posted by BradP:

Like this?

Sometimes it's needed.

or maybe like

this

melismatica

Minolta DiMAGE F200

05/22/2004 12:39:16 AM · #5

Originally posted by blemt:

In the spirit of the comment made earlier today, I propose a "grain challenge". I want to see images with some texture to them!

Clara

My Habits entry is grainy and to me it works for the shot. One of my four comments was, "a little grainy" so whaddya gonna do?

bruski

Canon EOS-50D

Tamron SP AF 17-35mm f/2.8-4 Di LD Aspherical IF for Canon

05/22/2004 12:47:29 AM · #6

I feel that the majority of people on this site, do tend to find that an image just isn't done well if there is grain. Imo I feel grain can make some images really stand out and give them character.

I felt that this image should have done better and I really like the effect. I think it would look great printed on water color paper. But it didn't do great and I think the grain was part of the issue. Yep just checked the comments and alot of them say stuff about being not clear enough or grainy.

Anyway, I like it. It was done by rmlutgen.

Message edited by author 2004-05-22 00:49:14.

Shakey

Canon EOS-300D Rebel

Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 II

05/22/2004 01:04:27 AM · #7

Originally posted by G4Ds:

So did I as per my vote which was 7 but I did not like grain/noise in this application.
I seem to prefer grain in Black and White.
But I for one have introduced grain into some shots but have shyed away from using it . I don't want to add grain added for effect in my title.

I sure wish there was a small Photographer comment for each photo in the challenge so that one can enlighten voters to their motive.
Say 10-15 words or less.

TooCool

Canon EOS-300D Rebel

Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 II

05/22/2004 02:02:17 AM · #8

This one gets my vote as an interesting challenge suggestion!!!

Beagleboy

Canon EOS-30D

Tokina AF 12-24mm f/4.0 AT-X Pro DX

05/22/2004 05:59:50 AM · #9

Ok. I have a question for you. Is "grain" the same thing as "noise"? Are these two seperate things?

When I think of grain I usually associate it with a B/W images while noise is associated to colour.

But that's just the thoughts of a silly French Canadian, eh?

Konador

Canon EOS-500D Rebel T1i

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 IS

05/22/2004 06:12:53 AM · #10

Me not like grain :(
Me have bad experiences with grain :(
Me lost my first blue ribbon for adding grain when it was against the rules :(

But still is a good challenge suggestion :)

soup

Canon EOS-30D

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

05/22/2004 08:17:33 AM · #11

grain is associated with film - and enlargements

noise is a product of the digital cameras.

they are similar, but different. grain can be used effectively - where in general noise is undesireable.

lwkimages

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

05/22/2004 08:32:27 AM · #12

Sooo.., are we suggesting that usage of the PS 'noise' filter, which adds 'grain' quite nicely (if done properly) would be allowed - even encouraged - in this proposed challenge? Sort of the opposite of the NI effect. If so, I'm all for it!

Message edited by author 2004-05-22 08:34:57.

ericsuth

Canon EOS-20D

Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L USM

05/22/2004 08:32:40 AM · #13

grain challenge...would be great! can be intepreted widely to include grown grain, sand, sugar, photography grain, etc...might have some interesting submissions...my wheels are already turning :)

Message edited by author 2004-05-22 08:33:38.

coolhar

Canon PowerShot Pro 90 IS

05/22/2004 08:52:05 AM · #14

How do you get grain in a digital image? Seems that we must equate it to noise if this proposed challenge were posted. You can get noise by using software, as lenkphotos has said, and also you can shoot in an inordinately high ISO. To me, grain, or noise, is basically a defect in a photograph. Something that you try to make look "artsy" in order to reclaim an otherwise undesirable image. Not sure if I want to learn about this. I can hear them now. In the future every time someone has an image so noisy that NI can't save it they will just say they did it on purpose using the artsy grain technique. Oh well, if we must. I guess I should be open minded and give it a try. But wouldn't be my first choice.

ericsuth

Canon EOS-20D

Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L USM

05/22/2004 09:04:43 AM · #15

just read a great quote by ansel adams that seems to speak to your reply coolbar...

The negative is the equivalent of the composer's score, and the print the performance. ~Ansel Adams

in our situation the submission can be considered the print

Message edited by author 2004-05-22 09:05:50.

Spork99

OM System OM-1

Canon EF 100mm f/2.8 USM Macro

05/22/2004 09:27:01 AM · #16

Originally posted by blemt:

In the spirit of the comment made earlier today, I propose a "grain challenge". I want to see images with some texture to them!

Clara

Howzabout this?

05/22/2004 09:33:06 AM · #17

Originally posted by Konador:

Me not like grain :(
Me have bad experiences with grain :(
Me lost my first blue ribbon for adding grain when it was against the rules :(

But still is a good challenge suggestion :)

Awww! Poor Ben! But this time it would be okay. Honest! :)

Clara

Canon PowerShot Pro 90 IS

05/22/2004 09:41:50 AM · #18

Originally posted by coolhar:

And this is why I suggested the challenge. Grain/noise are essentially the same thing. It a "defect" introduced to the image via the camera. Very similar to the "defect" caused by using high speed films. This "defect" was something that photographers had to learn to deal with until recently. Want to shoot at 1600 ISO- gonna get some grain. Wanna use a specific type of delevoper- gonna get grain. Like shooting in black and white, photographers learned to deal with grain by making it part of the shot.

There is a whole generation of photographers learning grain/noise is bad. It's not. If you know it's going to be there, learn to use it to make the shot more interesting.

As to your concern about future voters using this as an explination for a "poor shot" let them. If they do it well, it's not going to be a poor shot. :)

For purposes of this exercise, I would strongly urge that "photograin" be a key component of the image. No using NI to remove noise, but you can add or enhance noise. Here noise=grain.

And it's up to the intrepid photographer to figure out how to make it work. :)

Clara

mbardeen

Canon PowerShot G3

05/22/2004 09:47:15 AM · #19

Originally posted by blemt:

In the spirit of the comment made earlier today, I propose a "grain challenge". I want to see images with some texture to them!

Clara

Something like this?

coolhar

05/22/2004 10:35:56 AM · #20

Just my opinion, but, it seems to me that every time we have a technique challenge we wind up with people having knowledge about how to use that technique, to some extent at least, but not knowing when it is appropriate. Then we get dozens of entries in the following challenges that use the technique (some well and some not so) on subjects that are not suited to that technique. Examples: Soft Focus, Shallow Depth of Field, Painting with Light, and even Black & White.

I suggest that, as a community, we need to focus a little more on teaching and learning when the various techniques are appropriate as well as how to execute them.

Spork99

OM System OM-1

Canon EF 100mm f/2.8 USM Macro

05/22/2004 10:39:14 AM · #21

Originally posted by coolhar:

To me, grain, or noise, is basically a defect in a photograph.

If it is done in an intentionally controlled manner, to achieve an effect, it can hardly be a defect. If it's done poorly or simply to cover up other defects, then it will show, but if well done, adding grain or shooting on grainy film is an effective technique.

The Impressionists were similarly derided for their painting techniques by the established painting community. No one would argue that works like Monet's Haystacks or Rouen Cathedral paintings are not art.

Pedro

Nikon D200

Nikon AF Zoom-Nikkor 70-200mm f/2.8 VR DG IF-ED

05/22/2004 10:41:06 AM · #22

How about some grainy grain?

:D

05/22/2004 10:45:56 AM · #23

Originally posted by coolhar:

This is always going to be true. Like most skills, you only learn how by doing. Reading a book can't tell you how to make an image good. When you do, you are going to make mistakes. DPC is going to be a natural arena for those learning experiences, and those mistakes. None of us, from Ansel Adams on down to the newest digicam user starts knowing how to make good images. You learn with time when an effect is correct.

My only exception to your list is black and white. Everything can be done in black and white. Black and white was the only way to take images for a loooooooong time. There is never a case where a black and white shot is not appropriate. (note- I'm sure there are cases, but hang with me here, I'm on a roll. ;) You just have to learn how to see in black and white.

Originally posted by coolhar:

I suggest that, as a community, we need to focus a little more on teaching and learning when the various techniques are appropriate as well as how to execute them.

I think that is a great idea! Would you be willing to help write up a tutorial with me to address one of these technique areas? I'm sure it could be a great learning experience for the both of us. :)

Clara