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DPChallenge Forums >> Tips, Tricks, and Q&A >> Noise in every photograph
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 05/21/2004 05:34:06 PM · #1
I seem to get a lot of visible noise in every photo I take (ISO 100) in any light and under any conditions. Here is an example of the pictures I am taking:



And this approximately what I wanted:



(This took a lot of tedious blurring to remove the speckles. I don't want to have to do this for every photo.)

Am I being too picky and does everyone get this amount of noise with any camera?

P.S. Sorry if this question has been asked hundreds of times before (bad habit of mine).
 05/21/2004 05:43:57 PM · #2
Have you tried the program "Neat Image" - it works wonders with noise. Your original didn't look excessively noisy to me. Quite a few cameras have that much noise at ISO 100. Have you tried ISO 50?
 05/21/2004 05:49:53 PM · #3
I tried Neat Image briefly, but I couldn't get my head round all those numbers on the screen. I tend to prefer manually selecting the "noisy" areas and then blurring them slightly (will use Neat Image for DPC entries though, if I'm forced to). I don't have ISO 50 available on my camera, but is there any advice you could give me? I seem to get most noise with long exposure times but this might be my imagination - would you recommend that I widen the aperture and go and look for that dragonfly again?
 05/21/2004 05:51:38 PM · #4
hmmm, I looked at them side by side.. and really there isn't that much noise. Yes if you have an iso 50 setting, give that a try if you have enough light available.

The added blur in your background, that you want, is looking more to me like what would be achieved using a shallower DOF. and may not be possible with your camera and still get as much of your subject in focus as you have here.
 05/21/2004 06:01:42 PM · #5
You have a very critical eye, there is not really too much noise in the original, at least at this size. I suspect that in the full size shot it is more noticeable.
You are not imagining that more noise creeps in on long exposures. this is normal.
The level of noise you are seeing is normal for a camaera with a high pixel density. Virtually all non-DSLR cams have very small sensors, so the size of individual pixels on the sensor is very small. Smaller pixels equals more noise.
The only way to really tame the noise beast is to move to DSLR. Completely diffferent level of performance, but then a completely different level of financial committment.
NeatImage is a great tool. You should take the time to learn it; I especially recommend the version that includes the PS plug-in. The plug-in will let you run the noise reduction selectively, and it's much more effective than blurring, particularly when you want retain detail in the noisy areas.
I also hear that Noise Ninja is a good noise reduction program, but have no personal experience with it.

Message edited by author 2004-05-21 18:01:56.
 05/21/2004 06:12:03 PM · #6
Originally posted by SquirreI:
I tried Neat Image briefly, but I couldn't get my head round all those numbers on the screen. I tend to prefer manually selecting the "noisy" areas and then blurring them slightly (will use Neat Image for DPC entries though, if I'm forced to). I don't have ISO 50 available on my camera, but is there any advice you could give me? I seem to get most noise with long exposure times but this might be my imagination - would you recommend that I widen the aperture and go and look for that dragonfly again?


Longer exposure times always lead to more noise and some cameras have a setting to reduce noise at longer exposures. I don't know a lot about Sony Cameras but you might want to look in your instruction book.

There doesn't really seem to be that much noise in the original. Perhaps if you experiment more with Neat Image you will feel more comfortable with it. You can download profiles for almost every type of camera and they help with getting the settings right.

I've just started using Neat Image myself and once you get the hang of things it doesn't seem that difficult. I don't know what a lot of the numbers mean either but I just fool around with it till I like what I see! It's really nice when you use the Photoshop Plug In version of Neat Image, makes it much easier than having to open the picture in another program. The plug in works with Photoshop Elements and Paint Shop Pro as well as Photoshop.

The amount of noise you're getting isn't that great, you should see how noisy some of my pictures from my Fuji 5000 are.

05/21/2004 06:36:27 PM · #7
What is probably causing the 'excess noise' is if you were in either Shutter Priority or Aperture Priority. The camera was locked in ISO-100 and the CCD had to compensate for the lack of light, by boosting the exposure. If you look in the Exif data you probably can see the Exposure Compensation at 1 step or 2. This would cause more noise.

I have noticed that when you are setting up your shot in either Aperture Priority or Shutter Priority that the camera will blink the data on the right saying that it will take the picture at you settings but it isn't going to look good. Usually the shutter speed blinks saying it is either too high or too low for the ammount of light.

Hope that helps.
 05/21/2004 06:42:18 PM · #8
Thanks everyone for your advice and information - no where else can someone receive such generous and helpful photography tips. I never knew Neat Image could slip right into Paint Shop Pro, so that will be the next step to try. As for upgrading to a higher quality camera, I think I'll wait a few years until I can take a half decent shot, then see if the bank account can take it.
 05/21/2004 06:43:25 PM · #9
Check to see if you have it set to email for your file type. If not, switch it to normal or whatever it's called and then to switch to a larger file resolution. I leave mine set to fine/normal and resolution is set to 2250 x whatever. File size is approximately 1.5MB each and do not take long to write on my Memory Stick Pro cards. Don't bother with TIFF as those take a minute or so to write and not that much difference between the fine/normal JPEG.
 05/21/2004 06:55:30 PM · #10
I always have it set to highest quality JPEG, with the occasional TIFF to see if it makes any difference.

Ram, I noticed that too - the hand symbol with the (( )) round it? I thought it might mean something like "this shot will be susceptible to camera shake". This makes sense for long exposures, which is when it seems to pop up. Would you say that camera shake increases noise, or is it purely the long exposure that causes it?

P.S. On the F717, any exposure time below 1/30s is labelled "NR" for "noise reduction", which I think means that the camera tried its hand at a bit of noise removal, although I can't say how much because the NR function cannot be disabled.
 05/21/2004 07:14:41 PM · #11
i actually see more noise in what i will call the "oversharpening" of the second image. the saturation might be a little lower in the orig, but thats all i can see...again this resolution prob doesn't show what you're seeing in the larger orig's

-O.

Message edited by author 2004-05-21 19:15:28.
 05/21/2004 07:40:01 PM · #12
I agree with the others that the noise is not that bad. However, I am like you and like to reduce the noise as much as possible. I use Noise Ninja because I like the interface better and it allows for selectively editing where the noise reduction is applied. I opted for the full pro version so that I can batch process my images. It is a real time saver. Another thing that helps keep noise to a minimum is really be sure that your exposure is as close to perfect right from the camera. Any levels adjustments later can increase the noise. Nice shot BTW.

T
 05/21/2004 07:57:04 PM · #13
Originally posted by SquirreI:
I always have it set to highest quality JPEG, with the occasional TIFF to see if it makes any difference.

Ram, I noticed that too - the hand symbol with the (( )) round it? I thought it might mean something like "this shot will be susceptible to camera shake". This makes sense for long exposures, which is when it seems to pop up. Would you say that camera shake increases noise, or is it purely the long exposure that causes it?

P.S. On the F717, any exposure time below 1/30s is labelled "NR" for "noise reduction", which I think means that the camera tried its hand at a bit of noise removal, although I can't say how much because the NR function cannot be disabled.


Shake will not affect the amount of noise, although I guess if the shake was REALLY bad, the noise would show more against a blurrier backdrop.
The NR on the 717 for long exposures would, be fixed-pattern noise reduction, that is, in-camera dark frame subtraction. It should help, but is only half the problem. The other half is random noise, and the best solution for that is a lower noise sensor. Random noise can also be minimized in still-life shots by averaging several exposures, but this is not legal for DPC (either basic or advanced) and is applicable only where there is no movement in a scene and you are shooting from a tripod.
 05/21/2004 08:02:50 PM · #14
Squirrel,

I agree with you. The level of noise in the original is unacceptable.

You and I use the same camera and I am oh so familiar with your problem. Your noise is all electronically generated and not caused by camera motion.

I do noise reduction with most images and I ALWAYS shoot at ISO 100 with the highest quality the F717 allows. I experimented with .tiff and there is a slight improvement but post processing usually negates that and the time to record .tiff in the field and the memory used on your memory sticks makes that impractical. I shoot mostly .jpg

The Neat Image PS pluggin is good for most noise reduction. It has the flexibility of applying noise reduction to selected areas of the image. With Neat Image I find it works best if I let it calculate noise reduction from a selected "bland" area of the frame.

Under certain lighting conditions the noise is so bad I have to combine gaussian blur and Neat Image to deal with it.

The only real problem we face is that we have to go to extra effort to reduce noise in our pictures, but that has the benefit of a smaller file size in the end.
 05/21/2004 08:06:39 PM · #15
Looks like you just over sharpened it.
05/21/2004 08:25:44 PM · #16
Squirrel-

I still have my 717 and I did get noise but not to that extent even with night shots. I also never shoot in aperture priority or shutter priority and if those modes cause noise, try full manual. If you still get the same amount of noise, you may have a defective CCD and will need to replace the camera. Unfortunately, I do not have access to my camera at the moment but take a look at my portfolio. All but 2 images (jalapenopepper and palmfrond) were taken with my 717 and most of my images received very little post processing. I think the biggest issues with the 717 are barrel distortion and chromatic abberation, not noise.
 05/21/2004 10:23:47 PM · #17
As long as you keep the same ISO such as 100 it won't matter what shooting mode you use. Aperture or shutter priority modes won't introduce any more noise than full manual or full auto because it is still just a combination of shutter speeds and aperture size. Each mode can introduce more or less noise depending on the subject matter and shutter speeds used. If you use a slow shutter spped you can get more noise so you should try to use faster shutter speeds if you can. However, I feel that the amount of noise that is shown in the example is not so much that I would alter my settings if the exposure and DOF is the way I want it. I feel that those factors are more important than a small amount of noise.

T
05/21/2004 10:42:20 PM · #18
with my f717, i usually use the exposure compensation to compensate to about +.3 or .7 When I over expose I seem to get less noise, and i can usually just darken it again in photoshop.
 05/21/2004 10:58:34 PM · #19
make sure the sharpness on the camera is set to 0 whenever I tried to use that option all I got whas noise. Also I don't know on other cams, but f717 tends to create noise in poor light conditions even at iso 100 so as hsteg said try to avoid underexposures, better overexpose them by a bit.

Message edited by author 2004-05-21 22:59:43.
 05/22/2004 07:33:45 AM · #20
Originally posted by SquirreI:

Ram, I noticed that too - the hand symbol with the (( )) round it? I thought it might mean something like "this shot will be susceptible to camera shake". This makes sense for long exposures, which is when it seems to pop up. Would you say that camera shake increases noise, or is it purely the long exposure that causes it?

The hand symbol means you'll probably get movement blur with this setting of shutter speed and focal length. What Ram meant is the blinking of the green dot, which means that the current settings will result in an under- or overexposed image. This may happen when you use manual settings, or when you're at the limit of aperture range or shutter speed (i.e., according to metering you would need a larger opening or longer shutter speed but the camera can't do it). Took me quite a while to figure this out on my F717. I always thought I could use up to 30 seconds shutter speeds, but it turns out you can only do this in Manual or Shutter priority mode. In automatic mode, shutter speed is limited to 1/30, and in Aperture priority it's limited to 8 seconds.
 05/23/2004 07:34:26 AM · #21
Wow, you've given me an excellent range of things to try. Thank you very much everyone; I think I'll be off to do some tests now. :)
 05/23/2004 08:13:05 AM · #22
Yes, the noise isn't that bad! Digital cameras with smaller size sensors (I think the DSCF717 has a 2/3" sensor) will always be prone to noise at faster ISO settings but I would say the photos are quite acceptable. I wouldn't be too disappointed.
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