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11/23/2013 02:20:05 PM · #51 |
So... back to discussion then, if you want discussion. I hope it means that people are a little more open to challenge topics than they used to be. Perhaps the lack of 1, 2, 3, is because they can see that there's a connection, and even though they don't agree with the connection, they can see that the photographer in some way has had their own personal vision, and they can understand part of it, so there's a partial score.
I used to be very pedantic about the challenge topics when voting (when I first started). I figured the tie should be obvious, and if I didn't get it, the photographer failed. But then I figured that it was a pretty stupid way to approach a photo -- very myopic. So knowing the challenge and seeing the photo, I tried to figure out what possible connection the photographer was trying to make.
It was incredibly irritating to do this.
But then again -- I don't enjoy poetry.
3/4 of poetry seems like undecipherable crap to me. I love to read. I adore it. But I hate wading through poetry. If you want to say something -- say it. I don't want to sit and decipher what in the heck you're trying to say. Just like I hated my 10th grade English class when they asked me what did I think was the symbolism of the setting sun in some Hemmingway novel was. I enjoyed the question -- I hated that she told me that my thoughts on the symbolism were wrong. (how could she mark it wrong when she asked what I thought??)
Anyway, I enjoy coming up with what I think the photographer is trying to do with the connection to the challenge. If I don't get it, I actually don't think it deserves a 1 or 2 (if I like the photo), I figure part of the failing is with me, and it probably gets a 4 or 5. No more than that, if I can't find any connection.
The only time someone gets a 1, 2, or 3, is when the photo is truly horrid, or when I feel the photographer is purposely giving us the finger when it comes to the challenge. And even then, if I think they're going for the brown, I'll probably not give a 1, just so I don't help the process. :)
So maybe the answer is that people are being more open minded?
As for Christophe's image -- I also wanted this particular challenge to make sense. And I didn't enjoy the images that didn't follow the idea or the ones that didn't make sense. However, I enjoyed the creativity in his. Perhaps it's because my mind doesn't work that way, and never could dream up some of the things he creates. But for some reason, his brand of nonsense, actually kind of fit in a weird, nonsensical way.
It's like when my mother was writing children's books. She tried writing a fantasy book. It really didn't work. She had people doing things that just didn't make sense. Both Jeff and I tried to explain that she shouldn't have them doing those things, it didn't really work with magic. She said it's magic, they can do anything. We tried to explain that within fantasy, there really are some rules that seem to exist, and that when you've been reading fantasy for a long time -- you'll know what works and what doesn't. What you're writing, doesn't work. For some reason, what Christophe did was creative enough, that it got by my dislike of nonsense things for this particular challenge. (that being said, I forgot to vote, but it would have gotten by it... :)
But not because he's Christophe. There are a number of things of his that I haven't liked as much. Sometimes I think I hold some of the greats to a higher standard. Oh, Judi -- why did you come up with that -- you can do so much better! 6! (sorry, Judi, I just had to pull a great out of the hat, and you were next up. :) |
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11/23/2013 05:23:47 PM · #52 |
I will try to figure out what someone was thinking when I see a photo that doesn't seem to meet the challenge, but for me, the idea is to have it obvious. That doesn't mean it can't be out of the box! Christophe created a scene that was repeated on the book covers--a place that you would expect to find a picture. It's dark, but I like dark.
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11/23/2013 05:48:12 PM · #53 |
I'm late to the party, but was sitting here sewing and reading threads when I saw this... I have to add my 2cents. This was my highest scored shot in the whole challenge. The reason why: When I opened it, I saw the pix and then my mind built the story around that, It's Fall and the Beavers are building damns on the creeks surrounded by beautiful Hills and Forrest's of glowing trees, the smell of wood smoke in the distance. To me a Great photo invokes feeling to the viewer, and I saw that whole scene lay out before me and even had a wiff of the smoke lingering in the air. Thus a 10 from me because it walked me down memory lane...
Thanks Wendy for the wonderful journey~ |
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11/23/2013 08:43:32 PM · #54 |
Originally posted by ubique:
There is no DNMC. As a voter you can't say DNMC, you can say only, "I don't get it". How can you know what was in the photographer's mind? To presume to do so by proclaiming DNMC is an indictment of yourself, rather than of the photograph. You are entitled to not get it, and vote accordingly. That's definitely not the same as saying DNMC, which is just an unpardonable arrogance.
I appreciate that this distinction was not at all what Don was addressing, but I like to take every opportunity, however indirect, to jump onto that soapbox. |
+1
I wanted to say much the same thing. There is no DNMC! To vote a photo down because it doesn't match your personal understanding of the challenge is ridiculous. And arrogant. |
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11/23/2013 09:13:05 PM · #55 |
Originally posted by pixelpig:
Originally posted by ubique:
There is no DNMC. As a voter you can't say DNMC, you can say only, "I don't get it". How can you know what was in the photographer's mind? To presume to do so by proclaiming DNMC is an indictment of yourself, rather than of the photograph. You are entitled to not get it, and vote accordingly. That's definitely not the same as saying DNMC, which is just an unpardonable arrogance.
I appreciate that this distinction was not at all what Don was addressing, but I like to take every opportunity, however indirect, to jump onto that soapbox. |
+1
I wanted to say much the same thing. There is no DNMC! To vote a photo down because it doesn't match your personal understanding of the challenge is ridiculous. And arrogant. |
I disagree. The onus is on the ENTRANT, NOT the voter. Apparently that makes me arrogant.
How well an image meets a challenge is PART OF THE VOTING CRITERIA and is the sole right of the VOTER to decide. But- we've all hashed this out a gazillion times before, so why go through this ad nauseam? ...and why are we doing it in an old scores thread? |
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11/23/2013 09:13:12 PM · #56 |
| So, an image of an elephant in a cat challenge meets the challenge does it? Or do I simply not understand and I'm being arrogant? |
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11/23/2013 09:14:29 PM · #57 |
Originally posted by pamb:
So, an image of an elephant in a cat challenge meets the challenge does it? Or do I simply not understand and I'm being arrogant? |
Well, if you can't figure out the connection, you shouldn't be voting. :P (I wonder which one of us sounds arrogant) |
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11/23/2013 09:18:02 PM · #58 |
I think I'm on record about this previously, but I'm firmly of the opinion that DNMC is very valid.
In the last year I've seen some strange stuff on the front page - I wouldn't say they didn't deserve to win, but it was clear that they were far more concerned with delivering a good image than meeting the challenge. It's my guess that we now have a pretty significant number of voters who vote everything as a freestudy. |
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11/23/2013 09:18:44 PM · #59 |
| Hopefully we sound both arrogant and ridiculous. |
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11/23/2013 09:24:47 PM · #60 |
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
Originally posted by pixelpig:
Originally posted by ubique:
There is no DNMC. As a voter you can't say DNMC, you can say only, "I don't get it". How can you know what was in the photographer's mind? To presume to do so by proclaiming DNMC is an indictment of yourself, rather than of the photograph. You are entitled to not get it, and vote accordingly. That's definitely not the same as saying DNMC, which is just an unpardonable arrogance.
I appreciate that this distinction was not at all what Don was addressing, but I like to take every opportunity, however indirect, to jump onto that soapbox. |
+1
I wanted to say much the same thing. There is no DNMC! To vote a photo down because it doesn't match your personal understanding of the challenge is ridiculous. And arrogant. |
I disagree. The onus is on the ENTRANT, NOT the voter. Apparently that makes me arrogant.
How well an image meets a challenge is PART OF THE VOTING CRITERIA and is the sole right of the VOTER to decide. But- we've all hashed this out a gazillion times before, so why go through this ad nauseam? ...and why are we doing it in an old scores thread? |
Because people weren't paying much attention to 'part of the voting criteria' for this challenge. This, in fact, doesn't really bother a lot of us, but we did wonder why this image was spared. That is all. If you think this image illustrated fall and the colors that come with it, there is no need to reply :) |
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11/23/2013 09:31:06 PM · #61 |
Originally posted by pixelpig:
I wanted to say much the same thing. There is no DNMC! To vote a photo down because it doesn't match your personal understanding of the challenge is ridiculous. And arrogant. |
Other than personal understanding, what is there to base any possible judgment upon? Photography is intended to be a communicative medium. It can say here is a cat I saw, or it can attempt to convey complex feelings and concepts which are much harder to convey to the viewer. But the only onus on the viewer is to attempt to grasp what the image is trying to say, but if the creator of the image has failed to get across their point, you can't just blame the viewer. |
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11/23/2013 10:03:41 PM · #62 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
Originally posted by pixelpig:
I wanted to say much the same thing. There is no DNMC! To vote a photo down because it doesn't match your personal understanding of the challenge is ridiculous. And arrogant. |
Other than personal understanding, what is there to base any possible judgment upon? Photography is intended to be a communicative medium. It can say here is a cat I saw, or it can attempt to convey complex feelings and concepts which are much harder to convey to the viewer. But the only onus on the viewer is to attempt to grasp what the image is trying to say, but if the creator of the image has failed to get across their point, you can't just blame the viewer. |
Ha! I blame the viewers on this one. It couldn't possibly be DNMC! :-D
Memorial Day
Description:
Parades, gravestones, flags, war memorials, armed forces, cook-outs, beach vacations, patriotism, protests, celebration, etc. Submit anything that symbolizes Memorial Day (US Holiday) taken this past weekend.
I figured if a cook-out or beach vacation qualified, then why not my annual ritual of shooting photographs of fawns every year around Memorial Day weekend? It's a tradition for me (and for many others based on the number of people in the National Park that weekend).
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11/23/2013 10:12:06 PM · #63 |
I hardly know where to begin. When voting why should I have the slightest interest in the photographer's intent, purpose, or message? Why would I assume there is a point or message to look for in the first place? Why do I have to do anything other than look at the photograph & react to it with a number?
The voting rules say I should keep an open mind to other interpretations of the challenge topic. I should consider the challenge topic when voting, and adjust my score accordingly. So if it's OK for other voters to not keep an open mind to other interpretations of the challenge topic, it's also OK for me to not consider the challenge topic when voting & adjust my score accordingly.
I always read the discussion threads on challenge topics. I have learned from reading these threads that each one of us brings a personal unique point of view to the challenge topic. Nobody's understanding of it is quite like anyone else's. The arrogance in voting a photo down for not meeting your own interpretation of the challenge topic is that by doing so you act as though your understanding is the only correct one.
The onus for meeting the challenge topic is on the photographer. The onus for voting is on the voter. You vote your way. I'll vote mine. |
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11/23/2013 10:18:01 PM · #64 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
but if the creator of the image has failed to get across their point, you can't just blame the viewer. |
Originally posted by ubique:
You are entitled to not get it, and vote accordingly. That's definitely not the same as saying DNMC, which is just an unpardonable arrogance. |
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11/23/2013 10:19:51 PM · #65 |
| I think we have now firmly established that pixelpig has taken on the role of everything-is-a-freestudy movement leadership. :D |
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11/23/2013 10:25:06 PM · #66 |
Originally posted by bvy:
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
but if the creator of the image has failed to get across their point, you can't just blame the viewer. |
Originally posted by ubique:
You are entitled to not get it, and vote accordingly. That's definitely not the same as saying DNMC, which is just an unpardonable arrogance. |
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Politically correct bullshite.
If you don't intuitively understand that EVERYTHING said about a photograph is simply a verbal expression of the viewer's understanding, feelings, and experience of that photo, then Did Not Meet Challenge is in no way an illegitimate or inappropriate thing to say. Again, there shouldn't be a need to repeatedly hedge, and over-express the fact that what you're saying is just your opinion and understanding.
Really, I mean, isn't that super obvious to pretty much everyone?
Message edited by author 2013-11-23 22:25:55. |
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11/23/2013 11:00:37 PM · #67 |
If you said Does Not Meet My Understanding of the Challenge it would be more accurate, less arrogant.
I don't care how you vote.
Why are you trying to control how I vote?
Why are you trying to devalue my point of view by belittling it? Calling me the leadership of the everything-is-a-free-study movement. :D
Jeez-louise. :D
Ridiculous. :D
Next thing I know you will be reminding me to not let the door hit my butt on my way out. :D
Message edited by author 2013-11-23 23:02:38. |
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11/23/2013 11:26:05 PM · #68 |
From the Yacht Racing Rules, at least back when I was active:
"When serious collision is imminent, all yachts concerned should to their utmost to avoid it."
In the context of a rule set, the usage of "should/shall" is an imperative, not something that's optional. Or do you think I get a free pass if I drill my competitor amidships even when I could have kept clear by taking evasive action? |
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11/23/2013 11:43:49 PM · #69 |
| The onus for meeting the challenge topic is on the photographer. The onus for voting is on the voter. You vote your way. I'll vote mine. |
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11/23/2013 11:52:12 PM · #70 |
Originally posted by pixelpig:
The onus for meeting the challenge topic is on the photographer. The onus for voting is on the voter. You vote your way. I'll vote mine. |
If you don't consider the challenge topic when voting, you've broken the rules. Just like the guy who doesn't keep an open mind to interpretations of the challenge topic during voting. These seem to be rules that are increasingly not observed by the voters, but they are nevertheless still rules.
Message edited by author 2013-11-23 23:52:40. |
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11/24/2013 12:04:13 AM · #71 |
"DNMC" is a categorical statement. You are thereby excluding the possibility that you could be wrong. That's why it's arrogant.
"I don't see how this meets the challenge" is, by contrast, perfectly reasonable. That's what people who say DNMC actually mean.
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11/24/2013 12:07:18 AM · #72 |
Originally posted by ubique:
"DNMC" is a categorical statement. You are thereby excluding the possibility that you could be wrong. That's why it's arrogant.
"I don't see how this meets the challenge" is, by contrast, perfectly reasonable. That's what people who say DNMC actually mean. |
I got one of those today: "(snip)...but I do not see how this meets the challenge." Can't argue with that. My image is pretty obscure, for all that it actually DOES precisely meet the challenge. |
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11/24/2013 12:21:32 AM · #73 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
If you don't consider the challenge topic when voting, you've broken the rules. Just like the guy who doesn't keep an open mind to interpretations of the challenge topic during voting. These seem to be rules that are increasingly not observed by the voters, but they are nevertheless still rules. |
There seems to be a desire to find some significant shift in voting. I'm not seeing it. People have always voted in unique ways, it is the nature of democracy. Some people see every challenge as a question of who comes up with the most clever way of meeting the challenge, others seek out a particular look that they favor and the challenge is secondary if a consideration at all.
If each of us were one of a handful of jurors who were supposed to judge an exhibition this conversation would be critical, we few jurors should hammer out how we were going to be judging or it would be unfair to the exhibitors. But we aren't, we are a pool of differentiated opinions, and any extreme opinion is going to be balanced out by another. We do not have to all agree. Its OK. It has been that way since I started playing here, I do not expect it to change radically in the near future. |
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11/24/2013 01:12:08 AM · #74 |
Originally posted by ubique:
"DNMC" is a categorical statement. You are thereby excluding the possibility that you could be wrong. That's why it's arrogant.
"I don't see how this meets the challenge" is, by contrast, perfectly reasonable. That's what people who say DNMC actually mean. |
Really now.... I'm not entirely sure what you mean, because at first it seems that you think saying DNMC is arrogant, but then you end with saying that people who say DNMC just mean "I don't see how this meets the challenge", and that that is perfectly reasonable...
If what you meant was that voters who say DNMC just mean "I don't see how this meets the challenge", and that is perfectly reasonable, then I agree. If you meant was that saying DNMC is arrogant, then I disagree. There's no need here to cloak everything you say in the clause of perceptual differences and constantly restate that it's just your opinion. That's wasteful and time consuming... |
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11/24/2013 01:18:08 AM · #75 |
Originally posted by pixelpig:
If you said Does Not Meet My Understanding of the Challenge it would be more accurate, less arrogant.
I don't care how you vote.
Why are you trying to control how I vote?
Why are you trying to devalue my point of view by belittling it? Calling me the leadership of the everything-is-a-free-study movement. :D
Jeez-louise. :D
Ridiculous. :D
Next thing I know you will be reminding me to not let the door hit my butt on my way out. :D |
I care how you vote.
Because I think it isn't in line with the spirit of the site, and because I think it is probably a violation of the rules.
I don't mean to devalue your point of view - I think it's wonderful that we disagree. And I think there is a very real trend afoot that encourages gentle voting methods, and hippy-like appreciate everything, nothing is wrong mentality. I do think you are a vocal proponent of that voting method, and way of thinking. Besides, it was largely a joke - so I hope your smiley face is an indicator that you took it in the right spirit.
Leez-Jewese ;P
Deelickoujus. :D
Please do remember to not the the door hit you in the butt on your way out, I'd hate for you to get hurt. And be sure to close it when you come back in - it's cold out there. ;) |
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