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DPChallenge Forums >> Photography Discussion >> Color Profiles and Export to Dullness!
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 06/08/2013 10:22:56 AM · #1
When I export from LR or PS, I get a very dull photo compared to what my preview shows. My monitors are calibrated, and it makes it impossible to edit. Or rather I edit to taste, then export and say ... Ugggh. What happened! (And I'm set to Preview colors, using Monitor color.)

That is, they look dull on DPC, and they look dull when dropped on Chrome.

So I just tried turning off Embed Color Profile in PS...that made the difference! But why? I am set to export to sRGB, which matches the Internet. And of course, the whole purpose of including the color profile is to keep the colors the same. It doesn't make sense.

Here's an example. The only difference is one has the color profile stripped. Both from LR (I used Mogrify to strip the profile, since unlike PS, there's no export without profile option).



Do they look different on your monitor? The without looks closest to what I see in LR/PS for some unknown reason!
 06/08/2013 10:42:18 AM · #2
Identical on my monitor. Absolutely indistinguishable. Ditto on my Android tablet.

Message edited by author 2013-06-08 10:42:35.
 06/08/2013 10:52:15 AM · #3
They look the same to me and the color is wonderfully rich.
 06/08/2013 10:59:51 AM · #4
I can't see any difference either, viewing side-by-side in IE6.

Personally, I try to avoid using any of those color (mis)management tools/settings ... :-(
 06/08/2013 11:22:09 AM · #5
They look different on my monitor. The one without color profile looks more colorful. Can't explain it yet.

Btw. I'm using Firefox

Message edited by author 2013-06-08 11:32:11.
 06/08/2013 11:52:51 AM · #6
the image on the right looks significantly more vibrant. if you have the original, i'd be willing to repeat the experiment on my computer.

you can pm me if you want to explore that option. (i'll delete the image after testing of course)


Message edited by author 2013-06-08 11:55:11.
 06/08/2013 11:56:24 AM · #7
There is definitely a difference using Chrome v 27.0.1453.110, however none using IE 9.0.8112.16421 (64-bit). It is certainly because Chrome is color-management aware, but I was rather surprised to find that IE 9 is not. I guess I shouldn't have been surprised, IE 9 doesn't even have spell checking :-P
In the profile-aware browser, the image with the stripped profile is the one that has the more vibrant colors. In the profile-agnostic browser, both are vibrant. The take-away here is that you are relying on the incorrect display of the image (wrong profile assumed) to render it they way you want. If you convert to an sRBG profile, then save and upload, it should render the same in both aware and agnostic browsers, Try that, and see whether you get the colors you expect.
06/08/2013 01:30:26 PM · #8
Originally posted by kirbic:
There is definitely a difference using Chrome v 27.0.1453.110, however none using IE 9.0.8112.16421 (64-bit). It is certainly because Chrome is color-management aware, but I was rather surprised to find that IE 9 is not. I guess I shouldn't have been surprised, IE 9 doesn't even have spell checking :-P

So why am I not seeing a difference? I am using that exact version of Chrome.
 06/08/2013 02:06:18 PM · #9
It makes sense that a browser without color management shows them the same. So chrome has color management. (That's what I use.)

So why does the one WITHOUT color management, look like PS or LR? You would think they would show the same as one with a color profile. It's as if LR and PS aren't color managed!

Does anyone else see this in their own photos? I guess the workaround is not to include the color profile. But why?

Message edited by author 2013-06-08 14:06:42.
 06/08/2013 03:10:49 PM · #10
look identical on both my phone (android browser) and my pc (Firefox 21.0)
 06/08/2013 03:18:01 PM · #11
you set to export to sRGB, but what is the original profile? if its sRGB, i don't know why you'd be seeing a difference.

to add you have me concerned with my settings, but i wont hijack your thread. i'll make my own.
 06/08/2013 03:46:03 PM · #12
Using-Chrome 27.0.1453.110 (Official Build 202711) m
No diffrence.
 06/08/2013 04:09:17 PM · #13
Originally posted by see:
Using-Chrome 27.0.1453.110 (Official Build 202711) m
No diffrence.


So I guess it has nothing to do with the browser. Tried the same version and I see the difference.
 06/08/2013 04:11:51 PM · #14
Perhaps it's the ICC profile for the monitor (just guessing). I'm using one.
 06/08/2013 04:30:18 PM · #15
Could be, I'm using a Dynex flat screen TV for a monitor.
 06/08/2013 04:32:46 PM · #16
Originally posted by hajeka:
Perhaps it's the ICC profile for the monitor (just guessing). I'm using one.


Me too. Eye One profiles for both my monitors.

Perhaps the people who don't see the difference aren't profiled?
06/08/2013 04:38:17 PM · #17
I have been having this problem for some time now and I am not technically smart enough to figure it out. I too turned off the color profile in the "save for web" menu, because when I process it to my liking in PS and then save for web the colors look over saturated and still do when I upload on IE; however, I realized that the images looked blah in Firefox or Chrome. Before I have asked in the forums about the oversaturation once uploaded to DPC and answers always indicated something about color management, etc. I wish I knew the right combination.
 06/08/2013 04:52:22 PM · #18
Originally posted by kirbic:
There is definitely a difference using Chrome v 27.0.1453.110, however none using IE 9.0.8112.16421 (64-bit). It is certainly because Chrome is color-management aware, but I was rather surprised to find that IE 9 is not. I guess I shouldn't have been surprised, IE 9 doesn't even have spell checking :-P
In the profile-aware browser, the image with the stripped profile is the one that has the more vibrant colors. In the profile-agnostic browser, both are vibrant. The take-away here is that you are relying on the incorrect display of the image (wrong profile assumed) to render it they way you want. If you convert to an sRBG profile, then save and upload, it should render the same in both aware and agnostic browsers, Try that, and see whether you get the colors you expect.


I was under the impression that Google Chrome ignores embedded color profiles and that prior to version 24 (I think) if you wanted better color performance with a calibrated monitor you had to add "--enable-monitor-profile" to the target path in your shortcut's properties. However, doing that doesn't seem to affect anything in version 27. With or without it I see no difference in Neil's photos. Same goes for FireFox version 21.

Message edited by author 2013-06-08 16:54:08.
 06/08/2013 05:09:48 PM · #19
This site tries to explain it!

//www.gballard.net/psd/go_live_page_profile/embeddedJPEGprofiles.html#

So far, all I've figured out is the problem is due to an incomplete implementation of color profiles. The difference you see is due to the mismatch between your monitor color profile and the default, internet, sRGB. The more of a mismatch, the bigger the difference you see with all but Firefox if full color management is set (and you have to change a setting to get that).

ETA: When I set full color management in Firefox, both look the same, dull version.

Corrected: I see he's entirely right. The color managed one DOES match LR in edit mode. It's Photoshop that shows the brighter one if you turn on Proof colors, and the dull one if you turn it off! So it looks like PS is having trouble converting between the actual color profile and the preview profile...in his words, not fully color managed? (I have yet to try LR with soft proofing on though!)

Message edited by author 2013-06-08 17:27:48.
 06/08/2013 05:36:45 PM · #20
Hi, Neil. I was struggling with a similar problem recently and, among others, Ben did a great job of helping me understand it in this thread.

Long story short, I no longer ask Ps or Lr to proof colors or estimate what sRGB will look like while I'm editing, and simply convert to sRGB color space at the very last step. The conversions have been going perfectly well, and I'm left with an image that looks the same from monitor to monitor, regardless of the color management profiles of the browsers.

For what it's worth, I've got an sRGB-profiled IPS monitor and am using Firefox, and your images look exactly the same to me.
 06/08/2013 05:58:23 PM · #21
That thread helps too...it suggests my conclusion will work. DONT turn on preview in PS. The closest to what I'll get on the web is without the preview...per LR.

Then, export with the color profile. Unfortunately, anyone using IE will see oversaturated reds (especially since I'll be saturating to taste for the managed browsers!
 06/08/2013 06:17:48 PM · #22
That's true, but I think you can manage that better by converting to sRGB profile as the last step (at least for DPC entries and the such) (Edit -> Convert to Profile -> sRGB). That way, browsers that don't use your embedded color profile will default to sRGB, and the browsers that do use your embedded color profile will also use sRGB. The images should look the same in every browser.

Give it a shot. You can always just "save as" sRGB and maintain your other color profile in a duplicate file for any print work or other things, if you'd like.
 06/08/2013 07:08:09 PM · #23
Originally posted by bohemka:
That's true, but I think you can manage that better by converting to sRGB profile as the last step (at least for DPC entries and the such) (Edit -> Convert to Profile -> sRGB). That way, browsers that don't use your embedded color profile will default to sRGB, and the browsers that do use your embedded color profile will also use sRGB. The images should look the same in every browser.

That's what I do.
 06/08/2013 07:31:41 PM · #24
Originally posted by bohemka:
That's true, but I think you can manage that better by converting to sRGB profile as the last step (at least for DPC entries and the such) (Edit -> Convert to Profile -> sRGB). That way, browsers that don't use your embedded color profile will default to sRGB, and the browsers that do use your embedded color profile will also use sRGB. The images should look the same in every browser.

Give it a shot. You can always just "save as" sRGB and maintain your other color profile in a duplicate file for any print work or other things, if you'd like.


Actually, I let LR convert to sRGB on the way over to Photoshop, if I'm exporting to it. (And my LR profiles are always set to export to sRGB.)

So it's not a matter of what the profile is...the problem is that PREVIEW in photoshop gives me a false preview--akin to what I'd see without a color profile! This has to do, I believe, with the fact that my monitors differ from sRGB "enough". For one thing, one of my monitors is large gamut...a NEC Multisync P221W, and the other is a Dell 30" monitor. Both are profiled though.

One other interesting thing about the Photoshop Preview. If I select Monitor, it's totally off, as I've said. If I select "Internet Standard sRGB", I get this very red mess, totally wrong.

This is what my screen looks like if I color proof color with Internet sRGB:

(Screen capture--not sure if the red color will come through as I see it!)
 06/08/2013 07:50:43 PM · #25
Aha, I hear ya. That was the exact problem I had. I truly think there's a bug in Ps's Proof Colors operation.
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