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05/14/2013 07:23:11 PM · #26 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Still, you've chosen to endure. I assume that means you've chosen life over death. |
Wasn't given a choice.
Besides, that is a useless criterion - once a person can choose, clearly killing them is indeed wrong - but that is because they are then self-aware.
You may well be a doctor, but I've yet to be convinced that your religious views aren't in conflict with that, and you may have traveled the world, but you've proven that you see the world through the lens of the bible far too often for me to really trust your gut feelings and observations on these matters.
It's funny you mention third world countries. The children there may not be exactly wanted, but they ARE generally loved and cared for, often much more so than the unwanted children of the first world. And they also often grow up to show it - I've rarely met anyone from third world regions who are anywhere near as maladjusted as the kids we're talking about here in the first world.
I have more against killing an elk than I do against abortion, since not only could the world use more Elk (in places anyway), but they're also aware that they are alive- perhaps not exactly self aware, but FAR more of a thinking/feeling creature than a fetus is before the third trimester.
Furthermore, I'm pretty sure that pretty much every kid who's just had the shit beaten out of them, and are now listening to their parents fight about the punishment, are sitting there, blaming themselves, wishing like hell they'd never been born. Pretty sure of it. Of course, that goes away for most people once their life changes and doesn't suck anymore - but it's not a situation that a child should ever have to live in, and if you're preventing abortions, the reality is that many children will experience long periods of their life just exactly as I've described it here.
Message edited by author 2013-05-15 00:08:08. |
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05/14/2013 07:44:39 PM · #27 |
Alrighty then. This is the place where the productive conversation comes to an end...
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05/14/2013 10:18:01 PM · #28 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
It does reveal an interesting philosophical paradox where had the doctor done his job and killed the baby before it was born we would deem it "legal" and, yet, because he botched the job and then killed the baby after it is now capital murder. Not many situations have such extremely discrepant consequences for such a thin line of difference. |
I think you have made the line much thinner than it is. He did the "job" far after the cutoff for a legal abortion in weeks, not just and inside/outside of body distinction. |
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05/14/2013 10:26:15 PM · #29 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
It does reveal an interesting philosophical paradox where had the doctor done his job and killed the baby before it was born we would deem it "legal" and, yet, because he botched the job and then killed the baby after it is now capital murder. Not many situations have such extremely discrepant consequences for such a thin line of difference. |
I don't think this is correct. Since he was performing third-trimester abortions, it was illegal and murder whether the baby was outside the mother's body or not. |
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05/14/2013 10:39:10 PM · #30 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
It does reveal an interesting philosophical paradox where had the doctor done his job and killed the baby before it was born we would deem it "legal" and, yet, because he botched the job and then killed the baby after it is now capital murder. Not many situations have such extremely discrepant consequences for such a thin line of difference. |
Well said.
It's a fine line about when it's legal to end someone's life.
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05/14/2013 10:42:23 PM · #31 |
Originally posted by scarbrd:
I don't believe anyone is "for" abortion.
The issue for me is who makes medical decisions involving one's own body?
"White guys in business suits" is the wrong answer. |
I agree with this.
Who makes medical decisions for the person's own body who is being killed no matter how young he/she is?
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05/14/2013 10:54:57 PM · #32 |
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Holy cow, Cory. You'd look good in a pair of jackboots, dude. Sometimes you are more than a little over the top. |
*shrug*
Did your mom shoot your dad?
She ever beat you unconscious?
Was your mother a crystal meth addict?
Did your mother actually enjoy physical violence?
..
Mine is all of that and much more. Over the top? Honestly really don't even have a clue, I'm being quite restrained.
Thank god my dad is one of the most amazing people on this planet, but the times when he was gone for a year or two here and there were pretty awesomely horrible.
So, while you see me as "over the top", I see you as suburban-ignorant - I don't honestly think you know much at all about the world I grew up in during some periods of my life. I suppose I'm happy for you, but I do wish that you'd realize that you don't really know half as much as you think you do. Growing up as a well loved child in a financially stable household with two parents who aren't beating the shit out of each other until 3am every night is a poor primer for understanding why sometimes it's better for everyone if the kid is never born. |
This is very interesting to me, Cory.
I see life now... through your eyes and see how you've gotten the views that you have.
I'm very sorry for the pain of knowing that your father, whom you think you love and who you think loved you, left you with your mother despite how he knew you'd be treated.
Yet still... I don't wish you'd been killed before you knew all of this pain. Do you? Do you wish you'd never been born?
I wish you'd been left on the doorstep of a fire station or a police station (no questions asked, as is the law) if you were not wanted. I do not wish you had been killed.
I wish that two of the many millions of people who cannot have a baby that they so desperately want had been allowed to adopt you and love you and treat you with dignity instead of leaving you as garbage on an abortion table.
I know that they do, too.
There is not an overabundance of children here in the USA.
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05/14/2013 11:18:20 PM · #33 |
Easily obtained birth control.
Morning after pill over the counter.
Sex education in at least high school.
This will deter soooo many women having to make such a agonizing decision. I got pregnant at 18 and decided to keep her. Best decision in my case, but I cannot imagine if I were in a tougher position, PLUS it's pretty cool that I had a choice. My daughter knows I wanted to have her. Pro-choice does not mean pro-abortion.
edit to add: for the OP, this is the stuff we'll see more of if Roe vs. Wade is overturned.
Message edited by author 2013-05-14 23:27:14. |
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05/14/2013 11:24:10 PM · #34 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Alrighty then. This is the place where the productive conversation comes to an end... |
I hope you feel dirty. Want a Plan B? |
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05/14/2013 11:25:30 PM · #35 |
Originally posted by cynthiann:
Easily obtained birth control.
Morning after pill over the counter.
Sex education in at least high school.
This will deter soooo many women having to make such a agonizing decision. I got pregnant at 18 and decided to keep her. Best decision in my case, but I cannot imagine if I were in a tougher position, PLUS it's pretty cool that I had a choice. My daughter knows I wanted to have her. Pro-choice does not mean pro-abortion. |
Well said!! |
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05/15/2013 12:07:30 AM · #36 |
Originally posted by LydiaToo:
Yet still... I don't wish you'd been killed before you knew all of this pain. Do you? Do you wish you'd never been born?
I wish you'd been left on the doorstep of a fire station or a police station (no questions asked, as is the law) if you were not wanted. I do not wish you had been killed.
I wish that two of the many millions of people who cannot have a baby that they so desperately want had been allowed to adopt you and love you and treat you with dignity instead of leaving you as garbage on an abortion table.
I know that they do, too.
There is not an overabundance of children here in the USA. |
There is an overabundance of unwanted unloved children here. The reality is that adoption doesn't really work, for whatever reasons, and that millions of children are raised as garbage instead of being left as garbage on an abortion table. I'm not sure which is superior to the other.
In truth? As for what I wish? I wish that my parents would have both been able to live healthy productive lives, and that they might have been blessed with a family they really wanted.
As it is? They nearly destroyed each other, and it was all because of me, or perhaps because of my dear grandmother's strenuous objections to her having another abortion. Hell, 30+ years later, and my dad is still putting up with her abuse and bullshit, just because he can't stand to see her rot in a gutter. Horrifyingly sad really.
So do I wish I was never born? Hell. I have no idea - I do figure that life generally sucks anyway, interspersed with moments that are pretty great. Yet, even outside of the context of this conversation, I'm never really sure that I prefer living, being the logical fellow I am, I do figure being dead would be a hell of a lot less difficult, but far less entertaining.. I just don't have any really good reason to stop at the moment, so .. life goes on... |
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05/15/2013 01:30:48 AM · #37 |
Originally posted by cowboy221977:
I would like to add...I absolutely do not believe that tax payers should pay for an abortion. I believe that should %100 be on the patient.
I think planned parenthood should be un-funded as well (I think they still get govmt funding) |
Abortions represent 3 percent of total services provided by Planned Parenthood, and roughly 10 percent of its clients received an abortion. The group does receive federal funding, but the money cannot be used for abortions by law.
So if Planned parenthood had its funding from government taken away it would be cutting these services.
35% diagnosing and treating STDs
35% providing contraception
16% cancer screening and prevention
10% other women's health services
3% Abortions Link
The services Planned Parenthood provides save the federal government a lot of money. It̢۪s somewhat cold to put it in these terms, but taxpayers end up bearing a lot of the expense for unintended pregnancies among people without the means to care for their children. The same goes for preventable cancers and sexually transmitted diseases such as HIV/AIDS. You can find a lot more information about Planned Parenthood and its services. here
My attitude on abortion was shaped by a doctor friend of the family who as a young man had treated septic infections in young women who had gotten back alley abortions. What he described was not pretty. After California liberalized its abortion law in 1967, the number of admissions for infection resulting from illegal abortion at Los Angeles
County/University of Southern California Medical Center fell by almost 75 percent.
We can make abortion illegal, but that will not stop abortions. I think we are better off trying to make them safe, legal and try to make them much more rare.
Message edited by author 2013-05-15 01:49:46. |
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05/15/2013 02:31:48 AM · #38 |
Here's a fantastic illustration of the results of unloved unwanted children.
Awesome parents I'm sure. Our society is fucking doomed. |
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05/15/2013 02:38:26 AM · #39 |
Here's a small bit of my experience on the topic...
My son's girlfriend was 7 months pregnant before she knew she was pregnant (I guess it does happen). She most definitely would have had an abortion had she found out soon enough. Realizing they were not in a position to raise the child (both attending different colleges), they had looked into and arranged an adoption before they ever even told us about the pregnancy. They found a local couple who were more than happy to include them (and us) in the baby's life. My son helped deliver my granddaughter, Willa, on Jan 11th of this year.
Then the baby was turned over to her adoptive parents (mom is a doctor, dad is in construction and they have a 13 year old daughter).
Willa has been a HUGE blessing to her adoptive parents and to my son, his girlfriend and all of the grandparents.
Cory, I don't know where you get your info about adoption - I don't claim to know much about it, but apparently there are PLENTY of LOVING parents looking to adopt newborns. I am sorry for your experience, but you are definitely jaded by it.
I have had some personal experience with abortion (obviously not directly) and I know that there can be many severe emotional consequences to it that are never told to the women having it done. I'm not for making it illegal, but I am for restricting it and also for FULL DISCLOSURE to the women who have to make these decisions. I also agree with Doc's comments about there being a very thin line. I think the practice diminishes our society's respect for life in general. Just my two cents. |
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05/15/2013 02:42:07 AM · #40 |
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
Cory, I don't know where you get your info about adoption - I don't claim to know much about it, but apparently there are PLENTY of LOVING parents looking to adopt newborns. I am sorry for your experience, but you are definitely jaded by it.
I have had some personal experience with abortion (obviously not directly) and I know that there can be many severe emotional consequences to it that are never told to the women having it done. I'm not for making it illegal, but I am for restricting it and also for FULL DISCLOSURE to the women who have to make these decisions. I also agree with Doc's comments about there being a very thin line. I think the practice diminishes our society's respect for life in general. Just my two cents. |
I agree with you.
As for where I get my information on adoption? Very little real solid information, but I've been made to understand that it is a drawn out process which is neither cheap nor easy. But, I don't really honestly know much about it.
What I do know, is that whatever it is we're doing isn't working.
Message edited by author 2013-05-15 02:42:43. |
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05/15/2013 11:11:45 AM · #41 |
I know several (even many, by some standards) adoptive families. In each and EVERY case the child is loved and cared for beyond belief.
the problem ISN'T that there are a bunch of unwanted babies and no families that can/will take them. the families are there, but the adoption "fees" are outrageous. A normal, middle income family simply cannot afford it, or will go into great amounts of debt to do it. |
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05/15/2013 11:34:04 AM · #42 |
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
I think the practice diminishes our society's respect for life in general. Just my two cents. |
I think this is an important idea, Art. |
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05/15/2013 12:27:51 PM · #43 |
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
I think the practice diminishes our society's respect for life in general. Just my two cents. |
I'm not sure i agree with that.
i had a friend who had an abortion when she was 18, got pregnant from a one night fling. she knew she would never able to be able to raise the baby the way she wanted and the father wouldn't be in the kids life, etc. so she made a choice.
years later she found the right guy, got married and now has four beautiful kids and a great life, who knows how her life would have turned out had she had that kid.
now we can argue birth control and education all we want, but its proven that humans are terrible at assessing the long term risks during an moment of instant gratification. I just dont see why we need to succumb a child to a possible life of neglect and unwant or regret because two people got lulled to a moment of lust.
Some people are ready to give up their life and dreams and others aren't ready to become parents. leave the choice up to the parents and make the process fully able accommodate that choice.
Message edited by author 2013-05-15 13:06:52. |
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05/15/2013 12:42:26 PM · #44 |
I'm not quite sure how that was your argument against the statement Mike. It sounds like an anecdote (and a nice one), but it doesn't really speak to the issue of society's view of the value or sanctity of human life.
Message edited by author 2013-05-15 12:43:13. |
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05/15/2013 12:50:20 PM · #45 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I'm not quite sure how that was your argument against the statement Mike. It sounds like an anecdote (and a nice one), but it doesn't really speak to the issue of society's view of the value or sanctity of human life. |
That's because you don't get it.
Quality of life sometimes means much more than presence of life.
She made the decisions I wish my parents had made, she decided that she valued her life, and his life, and the lives of her future children enough to ensure that they would be brought into the world in a way that wouldn't immediately stack huge odds against them, and create a stressful, difficult and generally miserable life for everyone trapped in the situation.
Message edited by author 2013-05-15 12:50:52. |
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05/15/2013 01:24:54 PM · #46 |
You guys are talking about the choice of abortion vs. keeping and raising an unwanted child - this ignores the adoption alternative and the fact that there are many people who do want these children. So, sure, the argument becomes an issue of the woman not wanting to go through pregnancy and birth - go ahead and argue that - it's valid. I agree that adoption is ridiculously expensive for the adopting parents, but it is no cost to the birth mother and in fact, she will usually get much better care during the process and after.
Also, to Mike's anecdote - I know several women with similar stories, but most of them carried some deep emotional scars and psychological damage and some physical consequences from having abortions. So even though this was not your intent, I read your statement: "humans are terrible at assessing the long term risks during an moment of instant gratification" as applying to the abortion as much or more than the conception. ;-) |
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05/15/2013 01:31:46 PM · #47 |
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I'm not quite sure how that was your argument against the statement Mike. It sounds like an anecdote (and a nice one), but it doesn't really speak to the issue of society's view of the value or sanctity of human life. |
That's because you don't get it.
Quality of life sometimes means much more than presence of life.
She made the decisions I wish my parents had made, she decided that she valued her life, and his life, and the lives of her future children enough to ensure that they would be brought into the world in a way that wouldn't immediately stack huge odds against them, and create a stressful, difficult and generally miserable life for everyone trapped in the situation. |
"Three generations of imbeciles are enough." Is that your sentiment? I find that idea to be highly, highly dangerous and would reject it categorically. |
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05/15/2013 01:32:56 PM · #48 |
Women are told that it's not a baby... it's just tissue.
Then, years later they realize what they've done and it's an emotional scar that is very hard to heal... not to mention the fact that there is a high percentage of women who, after having an abortion, who can no longer get pregnant ... when it's convenient for them.
The fact is that it is much safer and healthier for the mother to give birth to the baby instead of having an abortion.
There are people who desperately want the baby.
Something should also be done to make adoption more affordable.
I strongly think that it should be law that any one who wants an abortion should have to watch an ultrasound of the "blob of tissue" moving inside of her before she can have an abortion.
I also think that she should have to meet at least two of the people who are waiting for a baby to adopt before she can have end the life of the "blob of tissue" and let them tell her how much they want her baby.
I know the second one is probably not a logical law, but the first one should be put into place.
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05/15/2013 02:07:32 PM · #49 |
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
You guys are talking about the choice of abortion vs. keeping and raising an unwanted child - this ignores the adoption alternative and the fact that there are many people who do want these children. So, sure, the argument becomes an issue of the woman not wanting to go through pregnancy and birth - go ahead and argue that - it's valid. I agree that adoption is ridiculously expensive for the adopting parents, but it is no cost to the birth mother and in fact, she will usually get much better care during the process and after.
Also, to Mike's anecdote - I know several women with similar stories, but most of them carried some deep emotional scars and psychological damage and some physical consequences from having abortions. So even though this was not your intent, I read your statement: "humans are terrible at assessing the long term risks during an moment of instant gratification" as applying to the abortion as much or more than the conception. ;-) |
the adoption alternative has and will always be there, what i hear from the anti abortion crowd is that you want to sway the mother to toward that decision or remove the alternative altogether. why? want to remove some red tape, ok, but why remove another avenue?
present the facts and let the mother to be decide what to do, we dont bear her burden, she does, let her decide what to do.
Message edited by author 2013-05-15 14:08:05. |
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05/15/2013 02:33:31 PM · #50 |
Originally posted by LydiaToo:
Women are told that it's not a baby... it's just tissue.
Then, years later they realize what they've done and it's an emotional scar that is very hard to heal... not to mention the fact that there is a high percentage of women who, after having an abortion, who can no longer get pregnant ... when it's convenient for them.
The fact is that it is much safer and healthier for the mother to give birth to the baby instead of having an abortion.
There are people who desperately want the baby.
Something should also be done to make adoption more affordable.
I strongly think that it should be law that any one who wants an abortion should have to watch an ultrasound of the "blob of tissue" moving inside of her before she can have an abortion.
I also think that she should have to meet at least two of the people who are waiting for a baby to adopt before she can have end the life of the "blob of tissue" and let them tell her how much they want her baby.
I know the second one is probably not a logical law, but the first one should be put into place. |
So why don't these people just go adopt a different kid? There's no shortage you know.
I think this might be a little bit like buying purebred puppies instead of going to the shelter and adopting a slightly older dog without a provenance. I could be wrong, but explain to me what their reasoning is when deciding not to adopt an older child?
Of course, all of this is complicated by the monsters like the Barahonas, and other predators. That will probably always prevent easy adoption since we are such an extremely risk averse society, especially when it comes to government, and even more so with the governance of children. I still remember first hearing about the Barahona case, as the discovery incident happened just a few minutes away from my house. Horrible.
So, while I think your proposal sounds awesome, and is as wonderful as an idea, I also think that reality will stand in the way of this ever becoming the standard.
Art, I appreciate that this worked out well for your kiddos, but realize that people want pretty little white babies from good looking, affluent, young, healthy parents. If this child had been born to an unattractive single woman in her 30's do you really think that there would have been an eager line waiting for the child? What if she was poor, and black? What if she lacked an education and was horribly lacking in interpersonal skills? How many adoptive parents are still in that line now? Now, what if she's a drug-addicted prostitute and it's unclear if drug addiction has caused birth defects that will require expensive surgery, or disabilities. What if it's also possible the child has HIV. Who pays then? Is there anyone left in line still? (I know there would be, but the supply would certainly exceed demand quickly, even in the most effective and efficient adoption system imaginable). My point is this: Riley's kiddo was born to a fairly affluent white family, to young parents, both of whom appear healthy and are good looking, of course someone wants that kid! But for every step away from that 'ideal', you will find it harder and harder to find adoptive parents.
The reality is that there is already a more than sufficient supply of children who desperately want homes, and a list of parents who desperately want children. Yet for some reason, they are both left wanting. Is it because of regulations, restrictions, and costs? Or is it because of the desire for 'desirable' children? Perhaps something else? A combination? Whatever it is, the fact remains that for many of these potential children, the outlook is nowhere near as rosy as you would paint it. Abortion isn't a great solution, I agree with that much. But it IS a solution that works, unlike the fantasy of a warm, loving and happy home for all the children who are born to unwilling and disinterested parents.
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