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01/16/2013 01:41:23 AM · #601 |
I couldn't open Cory's link and this was so incredible to me I did my own google and found this NBC report from Jan 15th. If this is true, then can anyone tell me how I am supposed to trust a president bent on banning assault style rifles and use this tragedy as the backdrop - when no rifle was used. Just amazing! 30 days of blame on a gun that wasn't even used in this carnage.
NBC report from Today Jan 15th
Message edited by author 2013-01-16 01:42:23. |
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01/16/2013 05:17:02 AM · #602 |
Originally posted by Flash:
... how I am supposed to trust a president bent on banning assault style rifles and use this tragedy as the backdrop - when no rifle was used. Just amazing! |
What can I say  Flash... some other President sent a boatload of Americans to war where thousands were killed all because of the belief that Weapons of Mass Destruction were going to be used on some poor unsuspecting nation... and to this date none were ever found...go figure.
Ray
Message edited by author 2013-01-16 05:18:09. |
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01/16/2013 07:28:04 AM · #603 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by Flash:
... how I am supposed to trust a president bent on banning assault style rifles and use this tragedy as the backdrop - when no rifle was used. Just amazing! |
What can I say Flash... some other President sent a boatload of Americans to war where thousands were killed all because of the belief that Weapons of Mass Destruction were going to be used on some poor unsuspecting nation... and to this date none were ever found...go figure.
Ray |
not to mention eroded many of the civil liberties of the US people in response, the same folks who supported the erosion of those rights are the ones defending the right to keep their guns.
Obama has been wanting to get rid of guns for some time now, why be surprised when he is presented with the opportunity? All politicians are opportunists.
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01/16/2013 09:09:38 AM · #604 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by Spork99:
People in the US still die from smoking, or get ill from 2nd hand smoke. Drunks, and other people who should not drive still do drive and they still injure and kill people. Far more people than were shot with "assault" rifles. |
Perhaps the issue that I have with the reasoning proffered to date is that it seems to be an "all or nothing" approach to the problem by both sides involved in the discussion.
Surely there has to be room for some semblance of compromise, such as mandatory registration for all guns, background checks, mental disorder data bases, safer storage regulations and other similar forms of checks and balances.
Regarding the driving scenario...I have no idea as to what happens in the USA, but where I live, if convicted one has to undergo courses and then at your expense, they equip your vehicle with a piece of equipment that one has to blow into and which will neutralize your car if you are impaired.... so things can be done to provide some semblance of control.
As for second hand smoke, you really have to work at that where I live since one cannot smoke in restaurants, workplaces, publicly owned beaches, golf course and a bevy of other locations.
Ray |
If you're a kid and your parents smoke, you don't have to work very hard at all. |
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01/16/2013 09:44:53 AM · #605 |
Originally posted by cowboy221977:
Hey Paul (  GeneralE ) Did you go out shooting this weekend. You really should You might like it..
I not only purchased an ar-15 carbine...I have also purchased the dies to reload... But it will accept the .223 remington ( a pop hunting round) |
Originally posted by wikipedia:
While the 5.56mm NATO and .223 Remington cartridges and chamberings are very similar, they are not identical.
While there is a myth that 5.56 NATO cases are thicker and hence have less capacity than commercial .223 cases, this has been shown to be false. Each brand of case and each manufacturing lot has a slightly different case capacity; 5.56 NATO and .223 commercial cases tend to have nearly identical case capacity when measured using the water test.[6] The NATO specification allows a higher chamber pressure. NATO EPVAT test barrels made for 5.56mm NATO measure chamber pressure at the case mouth, as opposed to the location used by the United States civil standards organization SAAMI. The piezoelectric sensors or transducers NATO and SAAMI use to conduct the actual pressure measurements also differ. This difference in measurement method accounts for upwards of 137.9 megapascals (20,000 psi) difference in pressure measurements. This means the NATO EPVAT maximum service pressure of 430 megapascals (62,000 psi) for 5.56mm NATO, is reduced by SAAMI to 379.21 megapascals (55,000 psi) for .223 Remington.[7] In contrast to SAAMI, the other main civil standards organization C.I.P. defines the maximum service and proof test pressures of the .223 Remington cartridge equal to the 5.56mm NATO.
The 5.56mm NATO chambering, known as a NATO or mil-spec chamber, has a longer leade (also referred to as the throat), which is the distance between the mouth of the cartridge and the point at which the rifling engages the bullet. The .223 Remington chambering, known as SAAMI chamber, is allowed to have a shorter leade, and is only required to be proof tested to the lower SAAMI chamber pressure. To address these issues, various proprietary chambers exist, such as the Wylde chamber (Bill Wylde)[8] or the ArmaLite chamber, which are designed to handle both 5.56mm NATO and .223 Remington equally well. The dimensions and leade of the .223 Remington minimum C.I.P. chamber also differ from the 5.56mm NATO chamber specification.
Using commercial .223 Remington cartridges in a 5.56mm NATO chambered rifle should work reliably, but generally will not be as accurate as when fired from a .223 Remington chambered gun due to the longer leade.[9] Using 5.56mm NATO mil-spec cartridges (such as the M855) in a .223 Remington chambered rifle can lead to excessive wear and stress on the rifle and even be unsafe, and the SAAMI recommends against the practice.[10][11] Some commercial rifles marked as ".223 Remington" are in fact suited for 5.56mm NATO, such as many commercial AR-15 variants and the Ruger Mini-14, but the manufacturer should always be consulted to verify that this is acceptable before attempting it, and signs of excessive pressure (such as flattening or gas staining of the primers) should be looked for in the initial testing with 5.56mm NATO ammunition.[12] |
Be careful mixing .223 and 5.56 ammo.
Message edited by author 2013-01-16 09:51:08. |
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01/16/2013 10:14:14 AM · #606 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by Flash:
... how I am supposed to trust a president bent on banning assault style rifles and use this tragedy as the backdrop - when no rifle was used. Just amazing! |
What can I say Flash... some other President sent a boatload of Americans to war where thousands were killed all because of the belief that Weapons of Mass Destruction were going to be used on some poor unsuspecting nation... and to this date none were ever found...go figure.
Ray |
Yeah, but this time we know it's a fricken lie before the action is even taken. And as such, we know that HE knows as well. |
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01/16/2013 10:14:40 AM · #607 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by Flash:
... how I am supposed to trust a president bent on banning assault style rifles and use this tragedy as the backdrop - when no rifle was used. Just amazing! |
What can I say Flash... some other President sent a boatload of Americans to war where thousands were killed all because of the belief that Weapons of Mass Destruction were going to be used on some poor unsuspecting nation... and to this date none were ever found...go figure.
Ray |
not to mention eroded many of the civil liberties of the US people in response, the same folks who supported the erosion of those rights are the ones defending the right to keep their guns.
Obama has been wanting to get rid of guns for some time now, why be surprised when he is presented with the opportunity? All politicians are opportunists. |
Actually, no. I've been against both. Thanks. |
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01/16/2013 02:05:41 PM · #608 |
Originally posted by Spork99:
Originally posted by cowboy221977:
Hey Paul ( GeneralE ) Did you go out shooting this weekend. You really should You might like it..
I not only purchased an ar-15 carbine...I have also purchased the dies to reload... But it will accept the .223 remington ( a pop hunting round) |
Originally posted by wikipedia:
While the 5.56mm NATO and .223 Remington cartridges and chamberings are very similar, they are not identical.
While there is a myth that 5.56 NATO cases are thicker and hence have less capacity than commercial .223 cases, this has been shown to be false. Each brand of case and each manufacturing lot has a slightly different case capacity; 5.56 NATO and .223 commercial cases tend to have nearly identical case capacity when measured using the water test.[6] The NATO specification allows a higher chamber pressure. NATO EPVAT test barrels made for 5.56mm NATO measure chamber pressure at the case mouth, as opposed to the location used by the United States civil standards organization SAAMI. The piezoelectric sensors or transducers NATO and SAAMI use to conduct the actual pressure measurements also differ. This difference in measurement method accounts for upwards of 137.9 megapascals (20,000 psi) difference in pressure measurements. This means the NATO EPVAT maximum service pressure of 430 megapascals (62,000 psi) for 5.56mm NATO, is reduced by SAAMI to 379.21 megapascals (55,000 psi) for .223 Remington.[7] In contrast to SAAMI, the other main civil standards organization C.I.P. defines the maximum service and proof test pressures of the .223 Remington cartridge equal to the 5.56mm NATO.
The 5.56mm NATO chambering, known as a NATO or mil-spec chamber, has a longer leade (also referred to as the throat), which is the distance between the mouth of the cartridge and the point at which the rifling engages the bullet. The .223 Remington chambering, known as SAAMI chamber, is allowed to have a shorter leade, and is only required to be proof tested to the lower SAAMI chamber pressure. To address these issues, various proprietary chambers exist, such as the Wylde chamber (Bill Wylde)[8] or the ArmaLite chamber, which are designed to handle both 5.56mm NATO and .223 Remington equally well. The dimensions and leade of the .223 Remington minimum C.I.P. chamber also differ from the 5.56mm NATO chamber specification.
Using commercial .223 Remington cartridges in a 5.56mm NATO chambered rifle should work reliably, but generally will not be as accurate as when fired from a .223 Remington chambered gun due to the longer leade.[9] Using 5.56mm NATO mil-spec cartridges (such as the M855) in a .223 Remington chambered rifle can lead to excessive wear and stress on the rifle and even be unsafe, and the SAAMI recommends against the practice.[10][11] Some commercial rifles marked as ".223 Remington" are in fact suited for 5.56mm NATO, such as many commercial AR-15 variants and the Ruger Mini-14, but the manufacturer should always be consulted to verify that this is acceptable before attempting it, and signs of excessive pressure (such as flattening or gas staining of the primers) should be looked for in the initial testing with 5.56mm NATO ammunition.[12] |
Be careful mixing .223 and 5.56 ammo. |
The above is kinda accurate. There is a difference in the Leade/Freebore diameter. The 5.56 NATO chamber is not as "Tight" reducing accuracy in favor of reliability and the ability to eat many different manufactures ammo relative to the varying specs. The .223 rifles have a "Tighter" chamber making them more accurate. As far as pressure the military using a different spec than SAAMI which make a true comparison impossible.
I choose to rely on ArmaLite specs and knowledge. ArmaLite had as an employee in the 50's a gentleman by the name of Eugene Stoner. He is the inventor of the of the AR-10 which later became the scaled down version the M16/AR-15 in .223/5.56NATO and ArmaLite was the first to produce the firearm before selling it to Colt.
This is AmaLite perspective on the .223/5.56 question. //web.archive.org/web/20070817152158///www.armalite.com/library/techNotes/tnote45.htm should you want more technical info here is a chart on the different chamber reamers used and their dimensions. //ar15barrels.com/data/223-556.pdf
So I am of the opinion based on my experience of owning multiple versions of rifles that shoot the .223/5.56NATO and thousands of rounds fired in practice and competition that in the modern era there is no real difference and should not be a concern. But as has been stated in these and other articles that if there is doubt call the Manufacture of the Firearm. |
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01/16/2013 02:13:32 PM · #609 |
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by Flash:
... how I am supposed to trust a president bent on banning assault style rifles and use this tragedy as the backdrop - when no rifle was used. Just amazing! |
What can I say Flash... some other President sent a boatload of Americans to war where thousands were killed all because of the belief that Weapons of Mass Destruction were going to be used on some poor unsuspecting nation... and to this date none were ever found...go figure.
Ray |
Yeah, but this time we know it's a fricken lie before the action is even taken. And as such, we know that HE knows as well. |
The sad thing about this is that even though it is national news that the shooter used only handguns my local news channel last night was still misreporting that the Rifle was used.
I would like to throw out this little tidbit of discussion fodder. If they reduce the the number of rounds allowed in a magazine how will this prevent having 2 or 3 or 4 guns? See my point is you reduce the number of rounds to 10 but I have 3 loaded guns it is still 30rds in the magazines and just as fast if I only had one gun with a 30 rounder. This is just feel good legislation restricting my right without any critical thinking behind the decision.
And to that point of a "hell bent on destruction" motivated criminal, this legislation will not apply.
Message edited by author 2013-01-16 15:45:01. |
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01/16/2013 02:24:08 PM · #610 |
Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:
.. This is just feel good legislation restricting my right without any critical thinking behind the decision.
And to that point of hell bent on destruction motivated criminal, this legislation will not apply. |
Which is exactly what I've been predicting.
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01/16/2013 03:08:43 PM · #611 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by Flash:
... how I am supposed to trust a president bent on banning assault style rifles and use this tragedy as the backdrop - when no rifle was used. Just amazing! |
What can I say Flash... some other President sent a boatload of Americans to war where thousands were killed all because of the belief that Weapons of Mass Destruction were going to be used on some poor unsuspecting nation... and to this date none were ever found...go figure.
Ray |
The did find 550 metric tons of "yellocake" uranium They also uncovered shells in Northern Iraq containing mustard gas. (Saddam did have WMD). And yellowcake can either be enriched for nuclear warheads or it can be used as-is for a dirty bomb....And he had alot.
Just thought you should know.
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01/16/2013 06:23:16 PM · #612 |
Originally posted by Spork99:
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by Spork99:
People in the US still die from smoking, or get ill from 2nd hand smoke. Drunks, and other people who should not drive still do drive and they still injure and kill people. Far more people than were shot with "assault" rifles. |
Perhaps the issue that I have with the reasoning proffered to date is that it seems to be an "all or nothing" approach to the problem by both sides involved in the discussion.
Surely there has to be room for some semblance of compromise, such as mandatory registration for all guns, background checks, mental disorder data bases, safer storage regulations and other similar forms of checks and balances.
Regarding the driving scenario...I have no idea as to what happens in the USA, but where I live, if convicted one has to undergo courses and then at your expense, they equip your vehicle with a piece of equipment that one has to blow into and which will neutralize your car if you are impaired.... so things can be done to provide some semblance of control.
As for second hand smoke, you really have to work at that where I live since one cannot smoke in restaurants, workplaces, publicly owned beaches, golf course and a bevy of other locations.
Ray |
If you're a kid and your parents smoke, you don't have to work very hard at all. |
Guess again... there are laws in this country that prohibit smoking in cars (if children are present) and apartment building owners can designate buildings as smoke free environments.
Ray |
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01/16/2013 06:35:35 PM · #613 |
Originally posted by cowboy221977:
The did find 550 metric tons of "yellocake" uranium They also uncovered shells in Northern Iraq containing mustard gas. (Saddam did have WMD). And yellowcake can either be enriched for nuclear warheads or it can be used as-is for a dirty bomb....And he had alot.
Just thought you should know. |
Oh trust me I do know.
You might want to go back and read that article again.
Besides, what would have Saddam have used to deliver a nuclear warhead...a truck. :O)
I seriously doubt that mustard gas falls into the category of WMD, but will gladly peruse any articles that you can provide to the contrary.
Ray |
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01/16/2013 07:19:53 PM · #614 |
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01/16/2013 08:35:59 PM · #615 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by Spork99:
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by Spork99:
People in the US still die from smoking, or get ill from 2nd hand smoke. Drunks, and other people who should not drive still do drive and they still injure and kill people. Far more people than were shot with "assault" rifles. |
Perhaps the issue that I have with the reasoning proffered to date is that it seems to be an "all or nothing" approach to the problem by both sides involved in the discussion.
Surely there has to be room for some semblance of compromise, such as mandatory registration for all guns, background checks, mental disorder data bases, safer storage regulations and other similar forms of checks and balances.
Regarding the driving scenario...I have no idea as to what happens in the USA, but where I live, if convicted one has to undergo courses and then at your expense, they equip your vehicle with a piece of equipment that one has to blow into and which will neutralize your car if you are impaired.... so things can be done to provide some semblance of control.
As for second hand smoke, you really have to work at that where I live since one cannot smoke in restaurants, workplaces, publicly owned beaches, golf course and a bevy of other locations.
Ray |
If you're a kid and your parents smoke, you don't have to work very hard at all. |
Guess again... there are laws in this country that prohibit smoking in cars (if children are present) and apartment building owners can designate buildings as smoke free environments.
Ray |
No laws about smoking in cars here and if you live in a house, you can smoke all you want.
Message edited by author 2013-01-16 20:37:18. |
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01/16/2013 08:47:37 PM · #616 |
Originally posted by Spork99:
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by Spork99:
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by Spork99:
People in the US still die from smoking, or get ill from 2nd hand smoke. Drunks, and other people who should not drive still do drive and they still injure and kill people. Far more people than were shot with "assault" rifles. |
Perhaps the issue that I have with the reasoning proffered to date is that it seems to be an "all or nothing" approach to the problem by both sides involved in the discussion.
Surely there has to be room for some semblance of compromise, such as mandatory registration for all guns, background checks, mental disorder data bases, safer storage regulations and other similar forms of checks and balances.
Regarding the driving scenario...I have no idea as to what happens in the USA, but where I live, if convicted one has to undergo courses and then at your expense, they equip your vehicle with a piece of equipment that one has to blow into and which will neutralize your car if you are impaired.... so things can be done to provide some semblance of control.
As for second hand smoke, you really have to work at that where I live since one cannot smoke in restaurants, workplaces, publicly owned beaches, golf course and a bevy of other locations.
Ray |
If you're a kid and your parents smoke, you don't have to work very hard at all. |
Guess again... there are laws in this country that prohibit smoking in cars (if children are present) and apartment building owners can designate buildings as smoke free environments.
Ray |
No laws about smoking in cars here and if you live in a house, you can smoke all you want. |
However there are some places that you will get pulled over for smoking with no1 else in the car... I was driving in Dallas...and got pulled over for smoking in my truck while driving down the road. It seems that I was in a no smoking zone....Extremely ridiculous. I was able to talk my way out of the ticket...I was still smoking when the cop came to the window.
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01/16/2013 09:01:59 PM · #617 |
Originally posted by Flash:
I couldn't open Cory's link and this was so incredible to me I did my own google and found this NBC report from Jan 15th. If this is true, then can anyone tell me how I am supposed to trust a president bent on banning assault style rifles and use this tragedy as the backdrop - when no rifle was used. Just amazing! 30 days of blame on a gun that wasn't even used in this carnage.
NBC report from Today Jan 15th |
That report is not from January 15th, it's from December 15th, one day after the shooting. The date appears on the face of the video underneath and to the right of the word "Today," and if you watch the video it's clear that it's a report that was filed around the time of the shooting, when there was a lot of incorrect information being reported. |
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01/16/2013 09:10:25 PM · #618 |
| you mean there was reason to go after handguns too and the media screwed it up? |
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01/16/2013 09:18:01 PM · #619 |
Originally posted by cowboy221977:
However there are some places that you will get pulled over for smoking with no1 else in the car... I was driving in Dallas...and got pulled over for smoking in my truck while driving down the road. It seems that I was in a no smoking zone....Extremely ridiculous. I was able to talk my way out of the ticket...I was still smoking when the cop came to the window. |
Having lived in the Dallas area and still having family that lives there, I have never heard of this. The only time anyone has ever gotten pulled over for smoking-while-driving-alone is when they chucked a butt out the window. They get serious about that stuff when it's dry out...brush fires and such. |
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01/16/2013 09:22:14 PM · #620 |
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01/16/2013 09:28:50 PM · #621 |
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01/16/2013 09:30:47 PM · #622 |
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01/16/2013 09:32:16 PM · #623 |
Originally posted by RKT:
Originally posted by cowboy221977:
However there are some places that you will get pulled over for smoking with no1 else in the car... I was driving in Dallas...and got pulled over for smoking in my truck while driving down the road. It seems that I was in a no smoking zone....Extremely ridiculous. I was able to talk my way out of the ticket...I was still smoking when the cop came to the window. |
Having lived in the Dallas area and still having family that lives there, I have never heard of this. The only time anyone has ever gotten pulled over for smoking-while-driving-alone is when they chucked a butt out the window. They get serious about that stuff when it's dry out...brush fires and such. |
Have you driven through the university of texas Dallas....They have a no smoking campus...To include roads
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01/16/2013 09:37:14 PM · #624 |
Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:
Originally posted by Flash:
I couldn't open Cory's link and this was so incredible to me I did my own google and found this NBC report from Jan 15th. If this is true, then can anyone tell me how I am supposed to trust a president bent on banning assault style rifles and use this tragedy as the backdrop - when no rifle was used. Just amazing! 30 days of blame on a gun that wasn't even used in this carnage.
NBC report from Today Jan 15th |
That report is not from January 15th, it's from December 15th, one day after the shooting. The date appears on the face of the video underneath and to the right of the word "Today," and if you watch the video it's clear that it's a report that was filed around the time of the shooting, when there was a lot of incorrect information being reported. |
I see! thanks for pointing this out I did not think to look at the date. One thing though, they sealed the reports for "least 90 days" So all of this is conjecture until they make public the details.
//www.ctpost.com/policereports/article/Sandy-Hook-affidavits-remain-sealed-4150259.php
Regardless of the weapon used it breaks my heart. The real shame is that the politics took precedent over the tragedy.
Message edited by author 2013-01-16 21:37:36. |
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01/16/2013 09:37:55 PM · #625 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
you mean there was reason to go after handguns too and the media screwed it up? |
The handguns were semi-automatic, too:
Guns Used in Newtown Shooting |
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