If it happened to them... it can happen to anyone.

Nikon AF-S Nikkor 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6G DX VR

12/05/2012 06:53:53 PM · #476

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by Cory:
Physical violence and abuse is almost always wrong, and that's pretty easy to explain, so no, I don't see a great deal of need there. But this is something we're all pretty sure about, most humans agree with the statement that violence is typically wrong.

Religion on the other hand is rarely agreed about, nor is it a simple subject. By telling your kids that you're sure about something that you have no darned clue about really does amount to mental abuse in my opinion... Although I know you disagree. I just can't see how manipulating your kids to follow the same path you've followed is healthy.

I for one do intend to tell my kids that some people think there is a god, and that they could be right.

That was the answer I suspected I would get. I'll make sure to send over the checklist of things to teach and get your ok on what is fine to indoctrinate in my children and what is not...

Nah, do whatever you want... I just think lying to your kids is wrong. Telling them you don't know, but do believe is fine... Telling them that they'll burn in hell if they don't do the same is just mental.

myqyl

Nikon D3100

12/05/2012 07:48:36 PM · #477

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by Cory:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
... It would be quite unreasonable to hold the position (which I have seen) that we ought not teach our children the tenets of our faith until they are able to critically judge their merits for themselves. That, to me, is patently absurd.

Why?

I don't understand this position at all - why not present all sides of the argument equally until the child can make their own decision on what is right and what is not?

So you think as I teach my two year old son that he shouldn't hit his one year old sister that I should present all cases for or against the morality of physical violence and allow him to make his own decision of what he thinks the correct course of action is?

You don't have kids, do you? ;)

ROFLMAO!!!

Just trying to picture this discussion hurts my sides :) "Perhaps you shouldn't smack your sister with that bat... You see society needs to live within certain structures to coexist..."

myqyl

Nikon D3100

Nikon AF-S Nikkor 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6G DX VR

12/05/2012 08:11:36 PM · #478

Originally posted by Cory:

By telling your kids that you're sure about something that you have no darned clue about (bold added) really does amount to mental abuse in my opinion... Although I know you disagree. I just can't see how manipulating your kids to follow the same path you've followed is healthy.

There's the rub. You assume we have no darned clue, which is odd since we've never discussed WHY we believe. You may have no darn clue, but that doesn't mean that we don't.

Originally posted by Cory:

I for one do intend to tell my kids that some people think there is a god, and that they could be right.

I've already told my kids that some folks don't believe in God and have introduced them to several so they can discuss it. You seem to believe everyone that is religious keeps their children locked away and stuffs religion down their throats... that's ok, stereotyping is a very common thing in our society. Every group has to deal with the narrowminded beliefs that others have about them. We can live with it.

Originally posted by Cory:

ETA:
It's funny how often that argument/justification comes up with you.

You're not a Christian: = You can't say shit about religion because you're not one of us and therefore you are ignorant of everything.
You don't have kids, do you?: = You can't say shit about parenting because you're not one of us and therefore you are ignorant of everything.
..
I don't buy it... Just because you're not a chef doesn't mean you don't know good food from bad food.

I have to disagree with you. It's not the same at all.

First of all, if your not a Christian, you can talk about religion all you want. But you have no clue what I think and believe, so you shouldn't be talking about that. You have no clue what my Church teaches. so again, you should not try to explain it.

As for being a parent before you can discuss parenting, ask any parent. If you don't have kids all you have is advice, and none of it is worth diddle...

12/05/2012 09:32:03 PM · #479

Originally posted by myqyl:

Originally posted by Cory:
By telling your kids that you're sure about something that you have no darned clue about (bold added) really does amount to mental abuse in my opinion... Although I know you disagree. I just can't see how manipulating your kids to follow the same path you've followed is healthy.

There's the rub. You assume we have no darned clue, which is odd since we've never discussed WHY we believe. You may have no darn clue, but that doesn't mean that we don't.

Oh, you don't really mean to try to convince me that you're absolutely certain about your religion.

If you say so, I will call you a fool.

Originally posted by myqyl:

Originally posted by Cory:

I for one do intend to tell my kids that some people think there is a god, and that they could be right.

I've already told my kids that some folks don't believe in God and have introduced them to several so they can discuss it. You seem to believe everyone that is religious keeps their children locked away and stuffs religion down their throats... that's ok, stereotyping is a very common thing in our society. Every group has to deal with the narrowminded beliefs that others have about them. We can live with it.

Did you, or did you not threaten them with hell?

Originally posted by myqyl:

Originally posted by Cory:

ETA:
It's funny how often that argument/justification comes up with you.

You're not a Christian: = You can't say shit about religion because you're not one of us and therefore you are ignorant of everything.
You don't have kids, do you?: = You can't say shit about parenting because you're not one of us and therefore you are ignorant of everything.
..
I don't buy it... Just because you're not a chef doesn't mean you don't know good food from bad food.

I have to disagree with you. It's not the same at all.

First of all, if your not a Christian, you can talk about religion all you want. But you have no clue what I think and believe, so you shouldn't be talking about that. You have no clue what my Church teaches. so again, you should not try to explain it.

As for being a parent before you can discuss parenting, ask any parent. If you don't have kids all you have is advice, and none of it is worth diddle...

I don't have any clue what you think or believe, that's true - but my point wasn't about your beliefs. It was about the nature of how such "knowledge" is typically passed along through familial lines. It's really like saying only a drug addict can possibly know if someone has a drug problem, or that only a cops, lawyers and judges know right from wrong.

It's just exactly that type of narrow-minded arrogance that makes me truly despise religious thinking, and honestly makes me question if you have any wisdom at all. But really, you have every right to screw up your children's ability to understand the world in whatever manner you please, after all, by law they are your property. And after all, as you do seem to think you know everything there is to know, so there's clearly not going to be much convincing you otherwise now is there.

Its people like you who make me honestly hope there is a hell, because I fully believe that the members of the "church" would be the first to burn, with their arrogance and smug ignorance, using the weak and foolish while claiming to be the only bringers of truth, justice and all that is good in the world.

pfft. spare me. Y'all are even more clueless than the rest of us.

Message edited by author 2012-12-05 21:32:47.

12/05/2012 09:40:57 PM · #480

BTW: I am ALWAYS up for hearing how you know what you know.

If you can give me some real reason that doesn't just sound nuts, you will have made great progress.

My guess is that you'll sound crazy.

12/05/2012 09:47:50 PM · #481

Originally posted by Cory:

Its people like you who make me honestly hope there is a hell, because I fully believe that the members of the "church" would be the first to burn, with their arrogance and smug ignorance, using the weak and foolish while claiming to be the only bringers of truth, justice and all that is good in the world.

pfft. spare me. Y'all are even more clueless than the rest of us.

But...but...but...(sputters to a halt)

Michael hasn't claimed ANY of that. You're slamming him into a pigeonhole labeled "Christian" without bothering to listen to him at all!

12/05/2012 09:50:06 PM · #482

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by Cory:
Its people like you who make me honestly hope there is a hell, because I fully believe that the members of the "church" would be the first to burn, with their arrogance and smug ignorance, using the weak and foolish while claiming to be the only bringers of truth, justice and all that is good in the world.

pfft. spare me. Y'all are even more clueless than the rest of us.

But...but...but...(sputters to a halt)

Michael hasn't claimed ANY of that. You're slamming him into a pigeonhole labeled "Christian" without bothering to listen to him at all!

Too right, but he hasn't done much to make me think that pigeonhole is incorrectly chosen despite, oh, I don't know, six posts?

I'm assuming a lot here, that's true. I don't mind being shown that I'm wrong, in fact I rather welcome it.

ETA: My fire burns bright on this. It's pretty much 0-to-nuclear option in about 3 posts. *shrug*.. it's been earned by a long list of the righteous and arrogant. Besides, it seems like they're all reading from the same playbook. After about 300 discussions I can pretty well predict the argument's trajectory long before it even gets there. I'd really, really, really love to hear something new and refreshing - I've just lost my faith in the ability of anyone to provide that in this argument.

Message edited by author 2012-12-05 21:55:19.

12/05/2012 09:54:41 PM · #483

Originally posted by Cory:

Nevertheless, that pigeonhole you've carved out ONLY fits the narrow-minded, bigoted, self-righteous among us, and nothing Michael has posted suggests he is that sort of person.

12/05/2012 09:57:31 PM · #484

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by Cory:

Too right, but he hasn't done much to make me think that pigeonhole is incorrectly chosen despite, oh, I don't know, six posts?

I'm assuming a lot here, that's true. I don't mind being shown that I'm wrong, in fact I rather welcome it.

ETA: My fire burns bright on this. It's pretty much 0-to-nuclear option in about 3 posts. *shrug*.. it's been earned by a long list of the righteous and arrogant.

Nevertheless, that pigeonhole you've carved out ONLY fits the narrow-minded, bigoted, self-righteous among us, and nothing Michael has posted suggests he is that sort of person.

Sounded pretty well on that path to me. He was busy explaining how it wasn't possible for anyone but a Christian to talk about Christianity, and how only parents can know anything about kids or what's right and wrong when it comes to how they are taught.

I don't know about the Christian thing, but I was a kid once, and some of my best teachers were childless, so that pretty much disproves point B in my mind. So, as a result I'm pretty darn suspicious of the accuracy and validity of point A too.

Originally posted by myqyl:

It's arrogant to proclaim that you KNOW anything in terms of what is right and wrong about your beliefs. By the very nature of them they are non-confirmable, and non-disprovable. In essence, in my world they are as useless as anything can be, since they can never be right or wrong. To say that you KNOW anything about this is just complete non-sense. To teach your children that you know these things, and to threaten them with eternal punishment should they question these beliefs is, by every measure I understand and have available to me, not a fair or healthy way to treat your children.

Message edited by author 2012-12-05 22:03:17.

12/05/2012 10:09:42 PM · #485

Originally posted by Cory:

It's only common sense, Cory. We constantly filter the relevance and value of the advice and opinions we receive based on the backgrounds and credibility (in our eyes) of the individuals offering the feedback. YOU know this. You're being disingenuous to make a point. When I was raising my kids, I sure as HELL didn't ask my bachelor buddies for parenting tips, and when they OFFERED them they were frequently something inane like "Can't you give him a tot of whiskey to quiet him down?" followed by a knowing laugh. I paid much more attention to what teachers said, because A. the teachers lived with my kids for hours a day, and B. The teachers have been trained in dealing with kids. So that's something else altogether.

12/05/2012 10:18:35 PM · #486

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by Cory:
Sounded pretty well on that path to me. He was busy explaining how it wasn't possible for anyone but a Christian to talk about Christianity, and how only parents can know anything about kids or what's right and wrong when it comes to how they are taught.

It's only common sense, Cory. We constantly filter the relevance and value of the advice and opinions we receive based on the backgrounds and credibility (in our eyes) of the individuals offering the feedback. YOU know this. You're being disingenuous to make a point. When I was raising my kids, I sure as HELL didn't ask my bachelor buddies for parenting tips, and when they OFFERED them they were frequently something inane like "Can't you give him a tot of whiskey to quiet him down?" followed by a knowing laugh. I paid much more attention to what teachers said, because A. the teachers lived with my kids for hours a day, and B. The teachers have been trained in dealing with kids. So that's something else altogether.

Bear, I'm not so sure it's common sense.

When a non-photographer tells me that they're in love with some photo, I usually look to try to figure out why. Just because they're not a photographer doesn't disqualify them from having useful advice.

I may not have children, and I'm certain it's clear that I'm not a religious person, but I'm still pretty darn sure about the fact that it's not right to threaten children with hell if they don't follow your beliefs. Yes, I know hell is a part of that belief, but damn man - can't you see how wrong this whole thing is? It seems like it should be so plain to me.

The argument was made that it's not practical to teach them a comprehensive world-view, and that blind indoctrination was really the only reasonable solution. Sorry guys, but that sounds criminally insane to me, I know it's more common than not.. but....

..

Once, a long time ago it was common for a person to own a few slaves, and it was also quite obvious at the time that the owner had the right to "use" those slaves however he pleased.

Today we see this for the madness it was, I just have to believe that religion will one day be subject to the same observational hindsight.

Message edited by author 2012-12-05 22:23:55.

12/05/2012 11:17:08 PM · #487

Cory, I was brought up Christian and nobody ever threatened me with hellfire and damnation. It was no part of the preaching of any church I ever attended. My children went to parochial school until High School age, and they were never threatened with hellfire and damnation either. My son was an altar boy, actually. And nobody ever molested him, for that matter.

I don't personally know anybody whose parents threatened them with hellfire and damnation. I'm aware this crap happens, but it's not the norm.

Just like I'm aware that bad people do shitty things all over the place, regardless of race, class or creed.

I'm not sure exactly what bee in your bonnet has caused you to so rigidly, vituperatively anti-religion, but as far as I'm concerned it's a terrible example of baby-and-bathwater.

12/05/2012 11:25:33 PM · #488

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

I'm sorry. I should have been more clear.

The bible threatens them, the parents are only guilty of presenting that fairytale as fact.

I agree, I seethe at religion and religious organizations. I suppose if I were to describe how I see a religious person who carries these beliefs, in religious terms, I would say that they are possessed by demons is a rather nice fit.

How can I not hate that which I see as a disease? It's not about the infected, it's about the disease. Unfortunately, the infected do serve as a vector of transmission of the disease, and they resist all attempts at quarantine - even wantonly spreading this disease to their children.

*shrug* All very over-dramatic and such, but really, this is pretty much the dramatized version of my views on the whole thing.

Sure I'm being a bit over-the-top here simply because I'm having a bit of fun with it, but I do mostly believe what I'm saying is true. This isn't healthy for our species, religion is only a distraction, and is, I think, harmful to the progress of our species.

I know many others disagree with me, but the number of folks who agree is growing every day, sometime in the future the disease of magical thinking will be eradicated, but I don't claim to have any idea when that will be, or even if the species will survive long enough to see that day come.

I have my hopes though.

12/06/2012 12:47:29 AM · #489

You CAN make the argument, and it has been made, many times, that WITHOUT religion, we would not have progressed towards civilization at all, that the religious impulse, the recognition of a force larger and more all-encompassing than our frail selves, is what sets us apart as a species. That the impulse has often been corrupted, in one sense, is neither here nor there; EVERYTHING man touches, he corrupts. We couldn't seriously argue that the planet, and all the other species upon it, is in any way better off for having us as inhabitants, but that also is neither here nor there.

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 USM

12/06/2012 12:51:56 AM · #490

Perhaps. Perhaps. ;)

I just have my doubts, and they are strong.

RayEthier

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

12/06/2012 06:13:32 AM · #491

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by RayEthier:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

... Do we have lots of stories of people saying, "help! I'm being held hostage by the Catholic Church!" I just don't see that narrative bearing any resemblance to reality.

Do you think that the poor people referred to Here might fall into the very category you allude to.

Ray

What kind of religious bass-ackwards country you got up there Ray? You got no separation of church and state? Man, I got a whole new view of Canada now that I'm supposed to view this as some sort of widespread systemic issue rather than an egrigious travesty. We used to say the US was Jesusland, but we pale in comparison!

You did say lots... I stand corrected. This is only ONE example, albeit it did last for years.

Ray

NikonJeb

Nikon D850

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12/06/2012 06:28:38 AM · #492

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Cory, I was brought up Christian and nobody ever threatened me with hellfire and damnation.

My wife was. Terror of punishment was a very strong motivator in her childhood when she was with her grandparents on a daily basis. Her mother worked, and the grandparents looked after her. They were United Methodists, playing cards were the "Devil's Cards", you couldn't do much of anything on Sundays, members of the family who drank AT ALL, were going straight to Hell....

Granted, this is now 35ish years ago, but still in our lifetime. This is after the man on the moon, nuclear physics, heart transplants, Earth Day...... Too much for too long. It's something of an about-face, and what a surprise, the people who are used to pawning a lot of tripe in the name of religion, and who'd answer questions with "Because it's God's will." are all of a sudden finding out that their answer to "Why?" isn't good enough any more, and that many of us are going to call "BS!" when they start spouting nonsense in the name of the lord and biblical teachings.

I understand Cory's attitude somewhat......that whole "Well, since you're not one of "The Chosen", you couldn't possibly understand, like below....doesn't fly any more.

Originally posted by myqyl:

You have no clue what my Church teaches. so again, you should not try to explain it.

What a crock of shit! First, this guy doesn't have *any* clue about how much any of us do or don't know about his religion, which is kind of funny since he's been here since 2002 and has just now popped up, and secondly, NOT buying into everything the church puts forth without asking for some semblance of sense certainly does not disqualify you from having knowledge of how they operate. In fact, not sitting still for some of the BS put forth to justify their actions is just downright sensible.

The demand for proof will continue, and grow stronger as people realize it's NOT a sin to ask "Why?". There's nothing wrong with faith and beliefs.......it's when you're asked, by humans, to buy into ways of doing things that are NOT acceptable that the problem comes in.

And some of us are tired of it.If you don't like having some people taking shots at you and telling you that your religious teachings are bullshit, too bad.......you had your reign of terror.....now it's time to pay the piper a little bit, and maybe you should re-evaluate some of your attitudes and answers to be a little more sensible and respectful. 'Cause it ain't a sin any more to question.

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12/06/2012 07:27:50 AM · #493

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

.....now it's time to pay the piper a little bit, and maybe you should re-evaluate some of your attitudes and answers to be a little more sensible and respectful

That's the problem. How do you 'get sensible' with answers that are nonsense to start with?

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

12/06/2012 07:42:05 AM · #494

FWIW one member of the first same-sex couple to receive a marriage license in Olympia, Washington this morning is an 85 year old woman who's been with her partner for 35 years. I suppose some think she should have waited for Mr. Right so she could procreate ...

NikonJeb

Nikon D850

Nikon AF-S Nikkor 28-300mm f3.5-5.6G ED VR

12/06/2012 09:25:35 AM · #495

Originally posted by JH:

That's the problem. How do you 'get sensible' with answers that are nonsense to start with?

That's the thing......I'd be a lot more amenable to being told about how someone's faith works for them and how it's affected their lives than being told I don't have a chance if I don't see things their way.

12/06/2012 10:21:00 AM · #496

The thing of it is, MANY of our fellow human beings, if not most, are happiest and most productive when they are functioning within an established, hierarchical structure. This is just the way it is. You should no more expect this to change than you should expect an antelope, say, to decide he'd rather live independently than within the herd. For an antelope that wouldn't work, and for people it doesn't usually work either. We're gregarious animals with a flocking mentality, by and large. It's not accidental that the Bible uses the shepherd/sheep metaphor abundantly, and it's not derogatory either.

It's in our bones, so to speak...

Nikon AF-S Nikkor 28-300mm f3.5-5.6G ED VR

12/06/2012 10:42:26 AM · #497

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Perhaps. I suppose I'd prefer to think that we are able to choose our behaviors, and exert control over our lives.

I don't know about this whole social flock thing anyway.. Frankly, I'm always on edge in any group bigger than a dozen or so people.

NikonJeb

Nikon D850

12/06/2012 11:36:14 AM · #498

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

I guess the problem I have is when the hierarchy has, and wields unlimited, unquestionable power. As theses discussions usually do, my curiosity was aroused as to when the last heresy conviction and/or excommunication happened.

I was stunned to find out....

A Christian theologian and professor by the name of Roger Haight, who had written a book on his theories, was banned from teaching at Catholic institutions in 2005. This decision was handed down to him through his superiors, not directly from Rome, and without the benefit of any form of trial.

Further action was taken in late 2008 which included banning him from teaching in non-Catholic institutions.

Huh? How does THAT work?????

No trial, no opportunity to defend his side of the issue, and to restrict him from something that is outside the church is exactly the kind of thing that the church does that inflames people. I was completely stunned.

myqyl

Nikon D3100

Nikon AF-S Nikkor 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6G DX VR

12/06/2012 01:11:56 PM · #499

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by myqyl:
You have no clue what my Church teaches. so again, you should not try to explain it.

What a crock of shit! First, this guy doesn't have *any* clue about how much any of us do or don't know about his religion, which is kind of funny since he's been here since 2002 and has just now popped up, and secondly, NOT buying into everything the church puts forth without asking for some semblance of sense certainly does not disqualify you from having knowledge of how they operate. In fact, not sitting still for some of the BS put forth to justify their actions is just downright sensible.

The demand for proof will continue, and grow stronger as people realize it's NOT a sin to ask "Why?". There's nothing wrong with faith and beliefs.......it's when you're asked, by humans, to buy into ways of doing things that are NOT acceptable that the problem comes in.

And some of us are tired of it.If you don't like having some people taking shots at you and telling you that your religious teachings are bullshit, too bad.......you had your reign of terror.....now it's time to pay the piper a little bit, and maybe you should re-evaluate some of your attitudes and answers to be a little more sensible and respectful. 'Cause it ain't a sin any more to question.

I've listened to what you've said the Church teaches. This is why I know you don't know Jack about it.

I'm not sure why it's funny that I've been here since 2002... But I didn't just "pop up". I changed my settings so I see the Rant forum again. Thank you for reminding me of why I turned it off years ago.

And lastly, I'm just fine with you "taking shots" at whatever you want to. I believe in your First Amendment rights every bit as much as I believe in mine (which I WISH was recipricated, but Oh Well). But if you don't like people telling you that you're clueless you may want to know what you're talking about you before speak up. But if you're going to get all bent out of shape when someone calls you on it, I'll stop... I really don't want to upset you and you seem to really be getting freaked out. I meant to have a calm civil discussion about a court case in New Mexico. I made every attempt to keep it on track. Near as I can remember my original argument had nothing to do with God or religion... You and Cory are the ones that are all upset that I believe in God. I respect your right not to... Hell, I even respect your right not to respect MY right to believe. I'm very sorry if I rocked your boat...

You'll be in my prayers...

God bless