If it happened to them... it can happen to anyone.

10/30/2012 06:29:38 PM · #178

I think it's a bit of goalpost moving. If we are responsible for all other Christians, then my point holds. If we are responsible for other local Christians, then why are we even talking about Westboro? I don't think it's very close to anybody, certainly not Wendy or myself.

I can understand the sentiment, but it's easy to throw stones, especially when you deny belonging to any groups yourself. It's like those "Coexist" bumper stickers that are popular at least around here. Each letter is a different religious symbol (in case you don't know them). Anyway, I find most people who have those stickers don't belong to any of the groups represented on the sticker.

Am I missing your groups Cory? What group are you responsible for OTHER members of? How do you find you best manage the behavior of the others in your group?

Message edited by author 2012-10-30 18:30:26.

10/30/2012 08:25:51 PM · #179

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

First, as to why you are responsible for Westboro - you are a part of an interconnected web, each string of silk supports every other nearby string of silk - remove a few key threads and the entire web fails, regardless of distance from the failed threads.

As to what groups I am a member of, I really do wish you would read, as I covered that earlier as well.

I would claim membership in the group "Scientist". And I think we do a better job policing our members than most, especially when you consider the fact that this is a rather nebulous group without any sort of governing body.

...

I also covered the fact that Atheist is a negative "group" not a normal group, as you don't choose to be an Atheist, but instead are simply assigned the title if you just fail to choose to be anything else. Therefore I see that as just slightly more valid than the supposed American White Male group that I seem to have joined at birth.

..

Now, let's take a quick look at your post, did you actually just claim that you don't think there's anyone near Westboro?

Let's just see how much water that idea holds: Google Map of Churches in Topeka Kansas

Yep, the fact check shows that you're still imagining things, but I'm sure you're quite used to being accused of that by now. ;)

In fact, there appears to be a rather large number of churches in the area.. But aside from that, as I said earlier, which you somehow ignored, Christians seem to have made a mistake in letting everybody join in the club - the price you pay is that certain cancerous lumps keep popping up, and the disease seems unstoppable, but you still bear responsibility for those who are members of your group.

Tell me why it is that I don't ever read about fanatical Jewish sects behaving badly? Or about Mormons, or how about the Amish? The reason is that they control the membership of their respective groups, you Christians have failed here, but it's about time that you stop failing and start doing something. I'll repeat myself once more when I say that the principle of "Evil triumphs when good men do nothing" is a fine guiding principal that many Christians seem to ignore.

The other option of course is to abandon calling yourself "Christian", but I know you've been trained to believe that this means you'll be assigned to the torture chamber by your loving god, as clearly accepting Jesus as your savior is far more important than actually making sure the world is a good place, or at least that's what I've been told.

Message edited by author 2012-10-30 20:30:46.

10/30/2012 09:41:46 PM · #180

I think you have a pretty weak grasp of Christianity if you think having to qualify to join is a good idea...

10/30/2012 10:12:43 PM · #181

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

I think you have a pretty weak grasp of Christianity if you think having to qualify to join is a good idea...

I think you have a pretty weak grasp of the reality of your situation if you think it's not.

10/30/2012 10:15:27 PM · #182

15 Now the tax collectors and sinners were all gathering around to hear Jesus. 2 But the Pharisees and the teachers of the law muttered, â��This man welcomes sinners and eats with them.â��

3 Then Jesus told them this parable: 4 â��Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Doesnâ��t he leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it? 5 And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders 6 and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, â��Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep.â�� 7 I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.

10/30/2012 10:16:58 PM · #183

BTW, as a scientist I'm here to inform you we had a meeting and the word is you need to get your act together and fall into line or we're booting you from the club...

Message edited by author 2012-10-30 22:17:13.

smardaz

10/30/2012 10:19:55 PM · #184

Originally posted by Cory:

as I said earlier, which you somehow ignored, Christians seem to have made a mistake in letting everybody join in the club - the price you pay is that certain cancerous lumps keep popping up, and the disease seems unstoppable, but you still bear responsibility for those who are members of your group.

Tell me why it is that I don't ever read about fanatical Jewish sects behaving badly? Or about Mormons, or how about the Amish? The reason is that they control the membership of their respective groups, you Christians have failed here, but it's about time that you stop failing and start doing something. I'll repeat myself once more when I say that the principle of "Evil triumphs when good men do nothing" is a fine guiding principal that many Christians seem to ignore.

The other option of course is to abandon calling yourself "Christian", but I know you've been trained to believe that this means you'll be assigned to the torture chamber by your loving god, as clearly accepting Jesus as your savior is far more important than actually making sure the world is a good place, or at least that's what I've been told.

"Hello? Westboro, we want you to stop calling yourself Christian."

"Oh, ok, sorry about that, we'll decide on another name and let you know"

Give me a break, Christians "allowing" others to call themselves Christian, what a joke.
And certainly science has never done anything inherently evil. I like how people always want to attribute torture and punishment to God and forget to mention how science has constantly come up with new and better ways to kill people for their respective governments. I mean, it's not good enough to just fire a bullet right? Let's make flame throwers and napalm and toxic gasses.

10/30/2012 10:31:52 PM · #185

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

First problem: I don't allow scripture to be used in logical arguments, otherwise I'll have you quoting Disney movies at me next as though they are somehow factual and wise. Aside from that, I especially love how the ninety-nine righteous persons do not need to repent. I've met a few of that sort, some of the worst of humanity IMO.

...

I do think it's a rather nice story though, unfortunately things don't work in today's world quite the same as they did 2000+ years ago.

Let's just think about how this would play out today, of course assuming that the sheep is a real sheep, and not a sheeple.

First, the sheep gets out - animal control is probably called by your neighbors who hate you for having 100 sheep, by the time animal control responds, your lost sheep has ran across a highway, which caused a pile up accident. Upon arrival at the scene you are told that you are being charged with negligence resulting in bodily harm for letting your sheep lose. But, you have your sheep back now, so you head home. Once you arrive, you find that someone has stolen several of your other sheep while you were out looking for the lost one. Oh well, forgive and forget right? So, you go ahead and call the neighbors to rejoice with you, as you have found your lost sheep, and it is safe. In fact, they think you're insane and still hate you for the sheep you are keeping. That night, as you wait alone for your neighbors to join you for your joyous rejoicing, you hear a knock on the door. When you answer it you find two police officers at your door, asking you if you've been harassing your neighbors with strange phone calls. When you try to explain, the officer finds your hand waving threatening, and maces you, then charges you with assault on a peace officer. The next day, after you call the bail bondsman, you are released after paying a $3,000 fee that is non-refundable. Upon your return to your home, you find that the gate was "accidentally" left open over night and your entire flock is now frolicking about the country out of your control....

Funny how that almost parallels the situation you face today isn't it? With your flock frolicking about without a mortal Shepard, no leader, no sheep dogs, just frolicking. Rejoice, for you are screwed. Things work differently than they did a few millennia ago.

Of course, I don't ACTUALLY expect any of you to ever figure this out, as it seems the institution has armored itself quite effectively against reality and rational examination.

10/30/2012 10:32:46 PM · #186

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

BTW, as a scientist I'm here to inform you we had a meeting and the word is you need to get your act together and fall into line or we're booting you from the club...

I'm the one who doesn't need to quote scripture to prove my point. I would suggest that you refresh your memory on the scientific method.

10/30/2012 10:36:35 PM · #187

Originally posted by smardaz:

Originally posted by Cory:
as I said earlier, which you somehow ignored, Christians seem to have made a mistake in letting everybody join in the club - the price you pay is that certain cancerous lumps keep popping up, and the disease seems unstoppable, but you still bear responsibility for those who are members of your group.

Tell me why it is that I don't ever read about fanatical Jewish sects behaving badly? Or about Mormons, or how about the Amish? The reason is that they control the membership of their respective groups, you Christians have failed here, but it's about time that you stop failing and start doing something. I'll repeat myself once more when I say that the principle of "Evil triumphs when good men do nothing" is a fine guiding principal that many Christians seem to ignore.

The other option of course is to abandon calling yourself "Christian", but I know you've been trained to believe that this means you'll be assigned to the torture chamber by your loving god, as clearly accepting Jesus as your savior is far more important than actually making sure the world is a good place, or at least that's what I've been told.

"Hello? Westboro, we want you to stop calling yourself Christian."

"Oh, ok, sorry about that, we'll decide on another name and let you know"

Give me a break, Christians "allowing" others to call themselves Christian, what a joke.
And certainly science has never done anything inherently evil. I like how people always want to attribute torture and punishment to God and forget to mention how science has constantly come up with new and better ways to kill people for their respective governments. I mean, it's not good enough to just fire a bullet right? Let's make flame throwers and napalm and toxic gasses.

Because a phone call is the only tool in your bag is it? Oh, wait, no I see you also have violence. Typical Christian attitude IMO.

Perhaps it would be better if you took the Amish approach, or the Mormon approach. They don't need to kill anyone, and they damn sure don't rely upon phone calls, but they have a set of well refined methods to keep their flock in check, Christians could learn much from them.

Of course, I said that several times before, but like all of the people here supporting Christian views, you seem to have a base inability to comprehend what you are reading.. Frankly it's starting to puzzle me how I can answer a question four times, and it still seems that you haven't read a single one of the four, I suspect you are all just ignoring anything that doesn't fit your argument - pretty poor way to win IMO, but your group has been using those sort of tactics for a very long time haven't they?

ETA: Science doesn't create guns or nuclear weapons, that's applied science - learn the difference, as it's critical.

Besides, the first quote uttered after the Trinity test was "I am become death, the destroyer of worlds." which is from, surprise! A religious text.

Message edited by author 2012-10-30 22:41:21.

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS II USM Lens

10/30/2012 10:48:15 PM · #188

Do you guys see a pattern here yet?

One where I am able to answer every question and objection you raise, without difficulty, while you find the need to ignore 90% of my questions and statements in order to raise the same question that has already been answered multiple times?

What say you? Why can you not even have the decency to read what I write, and answer what I ask?

Message edited by author 2012-10-30 22:49:41.

FromDaRock

Canon EOS-5D Mark III

10/30/2012 10:59:15 PM · #189

I must say, this is a very interesting off topic thread.

Anyone who has read it to this point would probably find some amusement in this cartoon from theoatmeal.com.

How to suck at your religion.

Some might be insulted by it, but at this point in the discussion they have already been insulted much more anyway. It does raise an interesting point though, because the reality of it is that the vast majority of people don't actually join their religion. They are indoctrinated from childhood. This makes the whole, being responsible for others, viewpoint much more difficult since it actually means leaving a group that you were sort of born into. It is much harder to turn away from things that have been ingrained into you since you can remember. Not impossible, just a hell of a lot harder than something that you actually chose to join of your own free will.

10/30/2012 11:02:06 PM · #190

Originally posted by rcollier:

You're quite right, and I do realize that I'm being somewhat unfair to those people. Still, I think that taking the easy way out (staying in a religion you don't believe in, and were born into) is actually one of the greatest evils a person can commit, as you are even being faithful to yourself at that point.

Besides, I agree that religion is a form of child abuse.

ETA: Absolutely wonderful cartoons, very illustrative of the problem.

Message edited by author 2012-10-30 23:14:05.

10/30/2012 11:13:59 PM · #191

Didn't you say up above somewhere you liked Jesus? I was quoting him. Make up your mind.

Oh yes, hereit is...

Originally posted by cory:

I really admire that Jesus fellow you tell stories about, could do with more folks like him.

Message edited by author 2012-10-30 23:19:16.

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

10/30/2012 11:16:13 PM · #192

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Didn't you say up above somewhere you liked Jesus? I was quoting him. Make up your mind.

I do like him. I like George Washington too, but I think people would object if I started quoting his views on slavery.

Some things become out dated, no matter how wise they were at the time.

You're still engaging in the same pattern, and I would like you to know how disrespectful I find it.

ETA: And you are NOT quoting him. You are quoting something attributed to him that has been through several translation layers. Lots of opportunity there for error, wouldn't you say?

Message edited by author 2012-10-30 23:20:15.

smardaz

10/30/2012 11:19:01 PM · #193

Originally posted by Cory:

I do see a pattern, you confidently state that that you have infallibly answered all questions while accusing everyone else who feels they have answered your questions of ignoring the facts and ignoring you.
You claim that your scientific community is more enlightened the the christian community and then resort to low blows and name calling, likening the Bible to a Disney movie for instance, or telling me I resort to violence, when I said nothing of violence in my last reply.
You too, need to get some facts straight if you think groups like the Mormons have never "acted up", and by the way, I hate to inform you of this but they consider themselves christian as well.

So, why don't you, with your vast stores of wisdom, tell us, since were ignoring you, what should be done. Perhaps just in this one case: The Westboro Baptist Church. If Christians should see to it that these types are not associated with "their group" what should they do? A phone call is not enough and without resorting to the violence you keep talking about, what should they do to remedy this situation to your liking?

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

10/30/2012 11:21:11 PM · #194

Originally posted by Cory:

Tell me why it is that I don't ever read about fanatical Jewish sects behaving badly?

Because you don't read Israeli newspapers?

Carl Zeiss 50mm ZE f/1.4 Planar T for Canon

10/30/2012 11:22:54 PM · #195

Originally posted by Cory:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Didn't you say up above somewhere you liked Jesus? I was quoting him. Make up your mind.

I do like him. I like George Washington too, but I think people would object if I started quoting his views on slavery.

Some things become out dated, no matter how wise they were at the time.

You're still engaging in the same pattern, and I would like you to know how disrespectful I find it.

ETA: And you are NOT quoting him. You are quoting something attributed to him that has been through several translation layers. Lots of opportunity there for error, wouldn't you say?

Lol. Ok Cory, you teach me what you know about good Mr. J that you don't know from scripture. Hit me with all the quotes and knowledge you got. You said you liked him. What were you basing that on?

You know when you are driving a car and its wet and you start to skid and you make a slightly too drastic adjustment and start to skid in the other direction and then the movements become more and more erratic? Ya, you look like that right now.

Message edited by author 2012-10-30 23:23:33.

yanko

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

10/30/2012 11:26:16 PM · #196

Originally posted by Cory:

Maybe you should practice what you preach and apply some of that scientific reasoning towards your failure in communication? Or is that not in the Book of Cory?

kawesttex

Apple iPhone 11 Pro

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

10/30/2012 11:26:18 PM · #197

Originally posted by Cory:

(staying in a religion you don't believe in, and were born into)

So you state this as a fact, but it's not a fact that your were born male. Interesting! As you have stated people have religious choices but yet you state that you are born into a religion.

10/30/2012 11:29:04 PM · #198

Originally posted by smardaz:

Originally posted by Cory:
Do you guys see a pattern here yet?

One where I am able to answer every question and objection you raise, without difficulty, while you find the need to ignore 90% of my questions and statements in order to raise the same question that has already been answered multiple times?

What say you? Why can you not even have the decency to read what I write, and answer what I ask?

I do see a pattern, you confidently state that that you have infallibly answered all questions while accusing everyone else who feels they have answered your questions of ignoring the facts and ignoring you.
You claim that your scientific community is more enlightened the the christian community and then resort to low blows and name calling, likening the Bible to a Disney movie for instance, or telling me I resort to violence, when I said nothing of violence in my last reply.
You too, need to get some facts straight if you think groups like the Mormons have never "acted up", and by the way, I hate to inform you of this but they consider themselves christian as well.

So, why don't you, with your vast stores of wisdom, tell us, since were ignoring you, what should be done. Perhaps just in this one case: The Westboro Baptist Church. If Christians should see to it that these types are not associated with "their group" what should they do? A phone call is not enough and without resorting to the violence you keep talking about, what should they do to remedy this situation to your liking?

You did mention weapons, so clearly they are something you are aware of, I included them for that reason.

Yes, I see the Bible as being a very well written fiction, with some basis in fact. That does admittedly sound a lot like Disney, especially the "Happily ever after" bit they seem to have lifted directly from the Christian playbook.

Tell ya what, why don't you bother yourself to go read what I have already written, as I proposed that you base your approach on the Mormons or the Amish (yes, both Christian, but Christians who seem to do a good job of herding their flock)..

As to what they should do to remedy this situation to my liking? Just leave the church, go make your own decisions and stop believing in the bullshit dogma you've been fed. Of course, I realize that this is COMPLETELY unreasonable, not that the actual act would be, but rather the expectation that there is even the slightest chance that could happen... After all, it's hard to turn your back on a lifetime of investment, no matter how badly that investment may be performing. (see stock market crash of '29)

..

Can you please clarify where I resorted to name calling and low blows? I'm afraid I don't recall that. Plus, as further objections, I never said my answers were even correct, let alone infallible, they are just what I think I believe right now - I'm perfectly willing to act on new information - unlike the average Christian. Also, I never claimed to have any wisdom whatsoever, let alone vast stores thereof.

You are nearly as bad as Spork at this.