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10/12/2012 11:58:14 AM · #26 |
Originally posted by Venser:
Originally posted by vawendy:
It may be opening a can of worms, but unfortunately the people who are purposely giving 1s to expert editing images that don't look photographic are making matters worse. |
Are they?
It is part of the rule suggestions in expert.
You should: keep your entry photographic in nature. |
i have to agree. i cant fault folks for following the guidelines, if you dont like it, you need to petition to get it removed (good luck with that, btw :) ) |
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10/12/2012 12:48:26 PM · #27 |
Originally posted by Venser:
Originally posted by vawendy:
It may be opening a can of worms, but unfortunately the people who are purposely giving 1s to expert editing images that don't look photographic are making matters worse. |
Are they?
It is part of the rule suggestions in expert.
You should: keep your entry photographic in nature. |
Pfft... You actually read the rules? What kinda ninny are you?
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Seriously though - I see very little that is photographic in nature about most of the winners and HM's in these contests. All I'm saying is, we're DPC, we are not Worth1000.com (Great site btw, those guys could even teach Gyaban some stuff for sure).... We need to remember who we are, and what has made this place great. It MOST CERTAINLY wasn't Expert Editing challenges.
Frankly Christophe's most recent work in Candlelight was fricken AMAZING folks... I have way more respect for that than any of his extremely polished and very beautiful Expert Editing work.
If you can't see the value in seriously reducing Expert Editing challenges to being a three-or-four a year sort of thing, then I'm at a loss, since it's pretty obvious, taking all the evidence into account, that these challenges are diluting the real value of DPC, and are actually causing some almost insulting things to happen. The results, to my eye, aren't really in line with DPC's core values, and has started to fundamentally change the landscape here at DPC. If this trend continues, we may lose even more market share by making the mistake of trying to be too many things. We are a photo challenge website - I joined because it's all about the photography, pure and beautiful.
Gyaban is amazing, even limited by Advanced editing he is great and competes with the best.
But, to be honest, he's not so great that he deserves 4 out of the top 10 highest rated images on DPC. All from this year. Fully half of the top ten are Expert Style editing. Yet they don't really represent the best and most creative photography work from DPC'ers. I just don't feel that this really agrees with DPC values, etc. At least only one of the images is not photographic in nature - and that's the "For Dallas" entry..
This isn't to take anything away from Christophe, the guy has followed the rules, and the voters have spoken - plus he's an amazing artist who has creativity beyond my wildest dreams. I only am speaking of him because he is by far the most successful at this genera here, and I most certainly don't want this to be seen as an attack on him at all - he's just the best. :)
*Shrug*
Perhaps I see things differently than some, but I know that I don't usually hire the guy who does everything, I hire the expert. I don't usually go to the buffet, I go to the French place, or the Ethiopian place, or the Indian place, or the steakhouse, or... etc. Being a specialist has some serious value - and DPC is making a mistake by moving away from specialist status. There are enough internet users to not need to try to attract everyone. |
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10/12/2012 12:50:08 PM · #28 |
It's a combination of things. Really poor challenge topics and too many expert editing ruleset designations.
I have been participating in some of the Expert Editing challenges, but I clearly see that if one's entry isn't a fantasy presentation, there are some who vote realistic photography as DNMC, even when an image meets the challenge. And, if the fresh challenge topics are frivolous (e.g., pet rocks) participation will plummet.
DPC has been trending away from photography that matters. Certainly away from what I'm interested in. But then, I'm maybe not the target audience of the future for the owner. That's okay, but I'm interested in photography and don't want to spend much of my time sitting on my butt in front of the computer screeen. I'd rather paint with a paintbrush on canvas, rather than try to paint with Photoshop.
Have recently had a photograph published on several high visibility websites. This has renewed my interest in getting back to what I love.... and that's not Photoshop creations. I deal face-to-face with the buying public every day. They don't want something that is fabricated and cartoon-like. They want to spend their money on photorealistic images. So, I'll redouble my efforts in that direction, even if it means I stop wasting time on the fringe stuff at DPC. |
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10/12/2012 12:52:56 PM · #29 |
I won't give 1's to the very non-photographic entries, but they are almost never going to get any kind of high score from me. The rules do say that we "should" keep it photographic in nature (not shall). SO there is a strong suggestion, not a hard rule. I therefore weigh this, and score appropriately.
I agree with Cory that the sheer number of Expert challenges are distracting; we are not Worth1000, and we shouldn't want to be. |
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10/12/2012 01:12:10 PM · #30 |
| while i do enjoy the expert ruleset, i would not be opposed to reining the quantity back. |
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10/12/2012 01:12:57 PM · #31 |
Originally posted by Cory:
We are a photo challenge website - I joined because it's all about the photography, pure and beautiful. |
I know I'm only a member for a few months, but this comment by Cory was exactly my reason to join DPC. I want to make better pictures and if possible I also like to learn the basics about good editing. Therefore, expert editing is not something I'm going to do, way beyond my skills right now.
To learn, I need comments on my images. And for comments you need members participating in the challenges. When I see the numbers of submissions now and I compare them with one-two years back, I can only see those numbers decreasing. And even more with the expert challenges. So my call is, go back to the (photographic) basis, try to get more people joining DPC and hopefully it will help members like me to develop their photographic skills in the future. |
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10/12/2012 01:18:08 PM · #32 |
My problem is not about one specific thing that may or may not be wrong with this site. There are so many things that can improve on this site and people have been voicing their opinions on them over the years with some valid suggestions, unfortunately there is nobody who listens which is the bigger problem here. FIrst, we have to know that somebody is even willing to listen to our suggestions regarding improving this site before we even attempt to make them. It is basically useless to propose anything in the first place because you know it won't get done anyway. Ok, so when can we start entering images that are longer than 800 pixels along the longest side again?
Message edited by author 2012-10-12 21:10:27. |
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10/12/2012 01:19:12 PM · #33 |
Remember that almost all of the challenge topics are picked from the member suggestions threads -- maybe people should quit suggesting Expert editing topics ...
Also remember that after 1600 contest topics, it can be hard to come up with something "new" which is inspiring -- I'd say we get as many complaints about repeating topics (presumably good ones) as we do about wacky topics.
Just because you CAN edit the heck out of an image doesn't mean you need to -- my Pet Rock entry meets the Minimal rule set ... |
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10/12/2012 01:38:32 PM · #34 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Also remember that after 1600 contest topics, it can be hard to come up with something "new" which is inspiring -- I'd say we get as many complaints about repeating topics (presumably good ones) as we do about wacky topics. |
Sorry, just did a quick grab from my spreadsheet, but aside from free studies, here are the challenges with more than 100 participants. Notice most of them have roots tied closer to photography than the catchall topics of late.
Abandoned II (Advanced Editing)
Abstract Macro IV (Basic Editing)
Abstract Nature (Advanced Editing)
Abstract: Black and White (Advanced Editing)
All Alone II (Advanced Editing)
Animals In Black And White (Advanced Editing)
Baby Animals II (Advanced Editing)
Birds III (Advanced Editing)
Collections II (Advanced Editing)
Corners (Advanced Editing)
Double Take IV (Advanced Editing)
Empty (Advanced Editing)
Footwear III (Basic Editing)
Foreground Bokeh II (Advanced Editing)
Framing V (Basic Editing)
Further On Up the Road (Advanced Editing)
Glasses II (Advanced Editing)
Green Macro (Basic Editing)
Grunge II (Expert Editing)
In The Style Of: jmritz (Advanced Editing)
Landscape VI (Advanced Editing)
Mundane II (Basic Editing)
Negative Space V (Advanced Editing)
Off-Centered Subject IV (Advanced Editing)
Photoshop Terms II (Minimal Editing)
Silhouettes V (Advanced Editing)
Spring (Advanced Editing)
Street Photography V (Advanced Editing)
Symmetry In Nature (Advanced Editing)
Upside Down IV (Advanced Editing)
Urban Landscapes IV (Advanced Editing)
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10/12/2012 01:43:09 PM · #35 |
| Those who are not in favor of Expert editing seem to do an awful lot of complaining. Like chained dogs barking at the moon. The moon isn't listening. |
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10/12/2012 01:46:27 PM · #36 |
Originally posted by AllenP:
My problem is not about one specific thing that may or may not be wrong with this site. There are so many things that can improve on this site and people have been voicing their opinions on them over the years with some valid suggestions, unfortunately there is nobody to listen which is the bigger problem here. FIrst, we have to know that somebody is even willing to listen to our suggestions regarding improving this site before we even attempt to make them. It is basically useless to propose anything in the first place because you know it won't get done. Ok, so when can we start entering images that are longer than 800 pixels along the longest side again? |
Langdon promised to hire a community manager some time ago. Never happened.... That one thing would fix so much shit. |
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10/12/2012 01:48:44 PM · #37 |
Originally posted by pixelpig:
Those who are not in favor of Expert editing seem to do an awful lot of complaining. Like chained dogs barking at the moon. The moon isn't listening. |
Perhaps not... But I'll keep barking, it pleases me. |
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10/12/2012 01:49:58 PM · #38 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
Originally posted by Venser:
Originally posted by vawendy:
It may be opening a can of worms, but unfortunately the people who are purposely giving 1s to expert editing images that don't look photographic are making matters worse. |
Are they?
It is part of the rule suggestions in expert.
You should: keep your entry photographic in nature. |
i have to agree. i cant fault folks for following the guidelines, if you dont like it, you need to petition to get it removed (good luck with that, btw :) ) |
This is more than following the guidelines, however. The immediate ones in the expert editing challenges are more of pushing an agenda. There are many photos in advance and even basic that aren't edited in a photographic nature.
This one was edited to look like a painting:
Does this one look photographic to you?
Some of the overdone HDRs look like line drawings. They don't look photographic. Yet people seem to be able to vote on all of the different aspects of those images. They may get hit for the processing, but it's not an immediate one.
Where are the 9 ones for any of these shots?
That's all I have a problem with -- is that expert editing seems to be taking a hit on one part of a rule that is only a suggestion, and that people aren't looking at anything else. That doesn't seem to happen nearly as much in the advanced or the basic.
By the way -- I have nothing to gain in this argument. I prefer the photographic feel and try to do that in my expert editing. Sometimes I fail significantly because of my lack of experience in art and photoshop, but that's still my goal. But I have seen anti-graphic art movement affect people who are thinking about entering challenges, and I think that's unfortunate.
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10/12/2012 01:50:59 PM · #39 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Remember that almost all of the challenge topics are picked from the member suggestions threads -- maybe people should quit suggesting Expert editing topics ...
Also remember that after 1600 contest topics, it can be hard to come up with something "new" which is inspiring -- I'd say we get as many complaints about repeating topics (presumably good ones) as we do about wacky topics.
Just because you CAN edit the heck out of an image doesn't mean you need to -- my Pet Rock entry meets the Minimal rule set ... |
Mine too! (about the pet entry)
anyhow... I have noticed there have been LOTS of challenges, and you're right... after a while, its hard to come up with "new" and "inspiring" especially to appeal to a decent crowd number.
so I know this wont go into effect... probably ever... but its a thought.
maybe to appeal to the "expert" crowd, do 1 expert challenge a month, that's a month long challenge. this would give people plenty of time to shoot, and edit to their hearts content. and I would almost bet this would increase the number of participants in the expert challenges.
Same goes for basic. have just one a month. and make it long enough for people to not feel RUSHED getting the right shot, with the right settings, at the right location, etc.
the rest of the challenges, keep advanced (since it seems to be the most entered - editing wise). and keep the current timeframe for these challenges.
seems like it would be logical. though, my logic has been proven to be skewed in the past. lol
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10/12/2012 01:54:31 PM · #40 |
Originally posted by vawendy:
By the way -- I have nothing to gain in this argument. I prefer the photographic feel and try to do that in my expert editing. Sometimes I fail significantly because of my lack of experience in art and photoshop, but that's still my goal. But I have seen anti-graphic art movement affect people who are thinking about entering challenges, and I think that's unfortunate. |
No. Bad Wendy... ;)
You're falling into the "Please everyone all the time" trap. We can't be really good at everything, and appeal to everyone all the time. We need to strongly appeal to some, which will drive commitment and participation - we need to tighten up the shop, focus our attention, and really do what DPC does well. We are a photo challenge website. Photo Challenge. Think about it.
BTW, both of your examples are fairly photographic in nature - over processed, but clearly photos. I find such efforts charming usually, I was there once too. |
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10/12/2012 01:54:42 PM · #41 |
For me, "Photographic in nature", in the context of the Expert Editing ruleset, means "composed predominately, if not entirely, of photographs." I've never had a problem, in ANY ruleset, with images processed in ways that make them NOT resemble traditional, or "conventional", photographs. But I'm not inclined to be super-enthusiastic about images in expert editing where many of the significant effects seem to have been created out of whole cloth.
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10/12/2012 01:57:09 PM · #42 |
Originally posted by Denielle:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Also remember that after 1600 contest topics, it can be hard to come up with something "new" which is inspiring -- I'd say we get as many complaints about repeating topics (presumably good ones) as we do about wacky topics.
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anyhow... I have noticed there have been LOTS of challenges, and you're right... after a while, its hard to come up with "new" and "inspiring" especially to appeal to a decent crowd number.
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Why oh why do we think we need to be so creative? What's wrong with the standards? I can take a photo of the same subject every day for a month, and get better each time, why shouldn't we refine our art instead of trying to spread out to the very fringes of photography? Bring on Macro MCCXVII! |
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10/12/2012 01:57:28 PM · #43 |
Originally posted by pixelpig:
Those who are not in favor of Expert editing seem to do an awful lot of complaining. Like chained dogs barking at the moon. The moon isn't listening. |
âThe hardest thing of all is to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat.â
- Confucius |
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10/12/2012 02:12:00 PM · #44 |
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by vawendy:
By the way -- I have nothing to gain in this argument. I prefer the photographic feel and try to do that in my expert editing. Sometimes I fail significantly because of my lack of experience in art and photoshop, but that's still my goal. But I have seen anti-graphic art movement affect people who are thinking about entering challenges, and I think that's unfortunate. |
No. Bad Wendy... ;)
You're falling into the "Please everyone all the time" trap. We can't be really good at everything, and appeal to everyone all the time. We need to strongly appeal to some, which will drive commitment and participation - we need to tighten up the shop, focus our attention, and really do what DPC does well. We are a photo challenge website. Photo Challenge. Think about it.
BTW, both of your examples are fairly photographic in nature - over processed, but clearly photos. I find such efforts charming usually, I was there once too. |
Naw. I don't care if we please everyone. But I will never understand the automatic 1s for certain things. 1s for nudes. 1s for military. 1s for graphic art. I can't stand suicide shots. Those are the ones to which I'd like to give automatic 1s. Yet, when I take time to look, there have been a couple that have been incredibly awesome. I like balance. I like it when people take time to look at a shot and vote on the shot itself. Not on prejudices.
But then again, maybe it would be fun and freeing to vote ones on the shots that I don't like. 1s for every pregnancy shot, no matter how well done!
Message edited by author 2012-10-12 14:16:00.
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10/12/2012 02:26:42 PM · #45 |
Originally posted by Cory:
But, to be honest, he's not so great that he deserves 4 out of the top 10 highest rated images on DPC. All from this year. Fully half of the top ten are Expert Style editing. |
Of course he does. Those are the scores he got in the challenges so unless he cheated he deserved those scores. It seems like you're assuming that highest score equals greatest photo. It doesn't. It would be like saying the 1940 Chicago Bears was the greatest team simply because they scored the most points in one game (i.e. 73). Same with the challenges. Just because that pool shot is the highest scoring photo doesn't make it the best photo any more than the photos right behind it.
Message edited by author 2012-10-12 14:30:22. |
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10/12/2012 02:30:56 PM · #46 |
Originally posted by Cory:
Why oh why do we think we need to be so creative? What's wrong with the standards? I can take a photo of the same subject every day for a month, and get better each time, why shouldn't we refine our art instead of trying to spread out to the very fringes of photography? Bring on Macro MCCXVII! |
Agree.
In May I did the self portrait side challenge and wide angle one, by the end of the month I was tired of both, but I definitely improved on both fronts. My wide angle was a $1800 paperweight before the side challenge. Now, approximately 6% of my photo are taken with it.
(Yes, I keep statistics on the lenses I use. My 50mm f/1.4 is used 85% of the time.) |
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10/12/2012 02:38:32 PM · #47 |
Originally posted by Venser:
Originally posted by Cory:
Why oh why do we think we need to be so creative? What's wrong with the standards? I can take a photo of the same subject every day for a month, and get better each time, why shouldn't we refine our art instead of trying to spread out to the very fringes of photography? Bring on Macro MCCXVII! |
Agree.
In May I did the self portrait side challenge and wide angle one, by the end of the month I was tired of both, but I definitely improved on both fronts. My wide angle was a $1800 paperweight before the side challenge. Now, approximately 6% of my photo are taken with it.
(Yes, I keep statistics on the lenses I use. My 50mm f/1.4 is used 85% of the time.) |
I'm not saying we HAVE to come up with new and creative challenges. I was reiterating  GeneralE's previous statement.
It seems so many people are "bored" with the current challenges.
I do think we need to come up with more challenge ideas. Because it helps to promote more creativity. We can't stick with the same thing every challenge.
I actually plan on doing a side challenge to improve my skill use.
Though it is something I haven't sat down and planned out yet. (in the works)
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10/12/2012 02:38:45 PM · #48 |
I think expert editing is as much about photoshop as minimal is about how good as your camera and lens are.
Often times, more than most if not all of the expert editing people, Gyaban puts fantastic background photos(that would win many other challenges)in his shots, which usually do contain, more often than not, dragon figurines or hole in them alien flesh people.
you hinted at it, but why don't you do a study that shows how popular "free studies AND unrestricted challenge topics" are as opposed to "very restricted and specific challenges?" |
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10/12/2012 02:44:17 PM · #49 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by Cory:
But, to be honest, he's not so great that he deserves 4 out of the top 10 highest rated images on DPC. All from this year. Fully half of the top ten are Expert Style editing. |
Of course he does. Those are the scores he got in the challenges so unless he cheated he deserved those scores. |
Don't take it out of context. I said exactly that several lines later.
And no, I don't feel good seeing really great photos pushed down by really great digital art... It doesn't sit well with me.
ETA: I do think the top scores should be an indicator of who is the best. Frankly, he is one of the best, and his Advanced editing photos show that.
I just don't like the top rated photos becoming digital art, I'd like to see his Advanced editing work more, as I think it really shows his skill off in a MUCH more impressive way.
Message edited by author 2012-10-12 14:50:55. |
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10/12/2012 02:46:55 PM · #50 |
Originally posted by blindjustice:
you hinted at it, but why don't you do a study that shows how popular "free studies AND unrestricted challenge topics" are as opposed to "very restricted and specific challenges?" |
It would be a matter of opinion.
I view the current Beatles and cliche challenge as unrestricted challenge topics, other do not. I'll try to categorize later, but this takes a little more time then running simple excel scripts on a spreadsheet. I don't know if I have time this afternoon for this. |
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