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09/06/2012 03:04:27 PM · #126 |
Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:
Originally posted by blindjustice:
we don't need it to feel like an aggressive, testosterone filed, locker room mentality. That is detrimental to the site. |
And I was just about to start snapping towels at people. What a killjoy. |
Funny, I almost put that in there. |
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09/06/2012 06:49:36 PM · #127 |
Originally posted by blindjustice:
We could argue all day about "freedom to vote the way you want" or "stop bitching and take the criticism for what its worth..."etc.
But really it comes down to negativity. Its rude and antisocial behavior in the forums that seems to have taken hold lately.
One could also argue that voting with a huge deviation from the norm, like a super low average,
or an out of the "ordinary voting pattern" towards the "negative" is a bad thing. |
I cannot for one instant begin to agree with that premise. We as a society have too long catered to the lowest common denominator for fear we might hurt someone's feelings. A score is simply a number that reflects one voter's view... nothing anti social, hateful or negative there... simply a statement of fact from that person's perspective.
Life sucks, get used to it.
Someday, someone telling you exactly where you stand could be your salvation.
Ray
Message edited by author 2012-09-06 18:50:15. |
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09/06/2012 06:57:23 PM · #128 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Someday, someone telling you exactly where you stand could be your salvation. |
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09/06/2012 08:21:50 PM · #129 |
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09/06/2012 08:59:25 PM · #130 |
Almost nobody seems to realize the true impact of scoring strategies, which is mathematical. Ribbons are based on *position*, not score.
An individual scorer's impact comes from the difference between their scores, not their overall average.
Examples of the true effects of scoring strategies:
"All my votes are 6 or above" - your scores are almost meaningless because you're only using half the available range.
"My average vote is 3.2 but I use the full range." - the impact you make is on the images you score high. They are much higher than the rest of your votes and get a big bump.
"My average vote is 8.1 but I use the full range." - the impact you make is on the images you score low. You really dump on those images because they are so much lower than the rest of your votes.
Because of this relative effect, I am going to use most of the range. Pictures that I dislike or leave me cold will usually get 3 or 2. Pictures that get my "ribbons" will get a 10. If I'm only giving gallery ribbons, then they will get a 10. Not because "10" means something to me, but because I want to separate them as much as possible from the photos I dislike.
Scoring is about math. |
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09/06/2012 09:26:40 PM · #131 |
Originally posted by blindjustice:
Would there be cause for action by the SC if an individual voted a "1" on every single photo? |
Nope. Why should there be?
If you want to ensure that everyone votes within a narrow band, join //dailyawards.com . Some frequent participants complained about outliers, and the owner put in a system that throws out your vote if you're a certain percentage below the average and tells you you voted wrong. I HATE voting there.
But I'll repeat what I and others have said: why are people getting so twisted up about a few low votes? I mean, seriously. I know of one case where someone hit 1 instead of 10 and it changed the average by 0.1, not even changing the ranking by one place. A few people hitting 1 where, maybe, some of you feel they should've hit 4 or 5? No big effect on the score. |
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09/06/2012 09:31:34 PM · #132 |
Originally posted by blindjustice:
Would there be cause for action by the SC if an individual voted a "1" on every single photo? |
Not by SC, but by the Vote Scrubber there would be. I believe if you voted all the same score for every image in a challenge then all the votes would be scrubbed from the final computations. I could be wrong, but as I understood threads from the past, this would be so. |
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09/06/2012 11:40:53 PM · #133 |
Originally posted by Neat:
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Originally posted by RayEthier:
Life sucks, get used to it.
Someday, someone telling you exactly where you stand could be your salvation.
Ray |
There are truths in your words Ray.
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09/06/2012 11:51:35 PM · #134 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
Almost nobody seems to realize the true impact of scoring strategies, which is mathematical. Ribbons are based on *position*, not score.
An individual scorer's impact comes from the difference between their scores, not their overall average.
Examples of the true effects of scoring strategies:
"All my votes are 6 or above" - your scores are almost meaningless because you're only using half the available range.
"My average vote is 3.2 but I use the full range." - the impact you make is on the images you score high. They are much higher than the rest of your votes and get a big bump.
"My average vote is 8.1 but I use the full range." - the impact you make is on the images you score low. You really dump on those images because they are so much lower than the rest of your votes.
Because of this relative effect, I am going to use most of the range. Pictures that I dislike or leave me cold will usually get 3 or 2. Pictures that get my "ribbons" will get a 10. If I'm only giving gallery ribbons, then they will get a 10. Not because "10" means something to me, but because I want to separate them as much as possible from the photos I dislike.
Scoring is about math. |
Ph.D. in Applied Math over here. It's part of the reason why my average got to where it is. It's not that I purposely got to this point intentionally, but over the months it logically fell in place. It's hard to break out of this pattern because I know how the system works and what the implications are. |
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09/07/2012 12:55:52 AM · #135 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
Almost nobody seems to realize the true impact of scoring strategies, which is mathematical. Ribbons are based on *position*, not score.
An individual scorer's impact comes from the difference between their scores, not their overall average.
Examples of the true effects of scoring strategies:
"All my votes are 6 or above" - your scores are almost meaningless because you're only using half the available range.
"My average vote is 3.2 but I use the full range." - the impact you make is on the images you score high. They are much higher than the rest of your votes and get a big bump.
"My average vote is 8.1 but I use the full range." - the impact you make is on the images you score low. You really dump on those images because they are so much lower than the rest of your votes.
Because of this relative effect, I am going to use most of the range. Pictures that I dislike or leave me cold will usually get 3 or 2. Pictures that get my "ribbons" will get a 10. If I'm only giving gallery ribbons, then they will get a 10. Not because "10" means something to me, but because I want to separate them as much as possible from the photos I dislike.
Scoring is about math. |
I'm glad Don himself came in and validated exactly the point I was making earlier.
And Don, who is often lauded (and I'm not disagreeing with this) for being one who encourages the offbeat, the entries that many consider more alive or interesting than the winning entries that are often described by many as empty, cliche, and trite. Yet here, in this thread, people are against the very approach he embodies, stating their ravenous approval for STAUNCHING any such encouragement of variety of the kind Don partakes in. Our community rallies round the underdog, yet these discussions are openly attempting to stomp the underdog, the different, into rubble.
What is being argued in this thread is to, as Paul quite accurately stated, create "a method to remove the outliers."
So if that is your cause, okay. But be honest about it, and accept that the fact that such an approach will quash the creativity most members praise routinely and share openly themselves, when they aren't taking part in threads such as this on the other hand. That you would no longer have ANY argument regarding the outcome of a challenge, as you are endorsing the tyranny of the mythical average voter.
Who is the average voter? It is neither me, nor you, nor any of us, because we all have differing opinions. So think carefully before you decide to force that mantel upon your head, and the head of every other in this community. What is spoken of as a solution here is a actually just a way of cramming a nonexistent aesthetic that no actual individual holds down the throats of all that partake.
Frankly, such a gross and completely open attempt to homogenize our entries and our voices is somewhat disturbing in a community of any who dare toss the term creative about.
Just saying. |
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09/07/2012 01:56:46 AM · #136 |
| All of you are very eloquent. I wish I had half your skill with language. Impressive. |
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09/07/2012 06:38:44 AM · #137 |
Some eloquent, and no doubt meritorious replies. But the nail is hit on the head. I personally don't place that much and emphasis on score as to care. But, since people vocally announce their lowballing ways, I supported the argument for scrubbing.
So this got all mixed up with the social aspect of the site and the ability to disagree but still be civil.
Let's all take some pictures. |
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09/07/2012 07:07:06 AM · #138 |
Originally posted by blindjustice:
Let's all take some pictures. |
And leave some comments. I like comments better anyway, for me they are a better indicator of whether or not my image was successful in what I was trying. Sometimes I am pleasantly surprised by the score as well but not often. If I was just going for score I would be very depressed and stop entering, and I don't want that even if the vast majority don't care that much for what i shoot. |
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09/07/2012 07:15:20 AM · #139 |
Originally posted by blindjustice:
Some eloquent, and no doubt meritorious replies. But the nail is hit on the head. I personally don't place that much and emphasis on score as to care. But, since people vocally announce their lowballing ways, I supported the argument for scrubbing.
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just becuase we announced it doesn't make it lowballing and that's where i took offense to this thread. people need to get over the fact that score isn't indicative of their ability to take photos. |
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09/07/2012 08:02:17 AM · #140 |
| I'm really glad we had this discussion. Points noted Thanks. |
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09/07/2012 04:16:42 PM · #141 |
Originally posted by blindjustice:
Some eloquent, and no doubt meritorious replies. But the nail is hit on the head. I personally don't place that much and emphasis on score as to care. But, since people vocally announce their lowballing ways, I supported the argument for scrubbing.
So this got all mixed up with the social aspect of the site and the ability to disagree but still be civil.
Let's all take some pictures. |
Juat lovely, yet another suggestion that we impose our views on those who dare to express a view that runs counter to that of the collective.
We have a whole generation of individuals who expect society to cater to their every wish and we no longer keep score in games so as not to hurt anyone's feelings. We have even seen teachers fired for daring to fail students. Just how far do we let this folly go.
Get real folks, live is about both sucesses and failures and it is about time that some on this site gain a full appreciation of that fact.
Ray |
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09/07/2012 04:39:36 PM · #142 |
Ha! Yes. I am going to embrace the failure aspect. At least as far as DPC ribbons go. Does that mean I suck as a photographer? Of course not. I'm a hit with my non-photography friends on FB!!
It's all good!
And for the record, I tend to vote on the middle, so I probably muddy the averages more than anything. I'll try to spread the vote a bit more.
Message edited by author 2012-09-07 16:42:50. |
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09/07/2012 04:42:32 PM · #143 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by blindjustice:
Some eloquent, and no doubt meritorious replies. But the nail is hit on the head. I personally don't place that much and emphasis on score as to care. But, since people vocally announce their lowballing ways, I supported the argument for scrubbing.
So this got all mixed up with the social aspect of the site and the ability to disagree but still be civil.
Let's all take some pictures. |
Juat lovely, yet another suggestion that we impose our views on those who dare to express a view that runs counter to that of the collective.
We have a whole generation of individuals who expect society to cater to their every wish and we no longer keep score in games so as not to hurt anyone's feelings. We have even seen teachers fired for daring to fail students. Just how far do we let this folly go.
Get real folks, live is about both sucesses and failures and it is about time that some on this site gain a full appreciation of that fact.
Ray |
Thank you Ray. |
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09/07/2012 05:02:48 PM · #144 |
Originally posted by K10DGuy:
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by blindjustice:
Some eloquent, and no doubt meritorious replies. But the nail is hit on the head. I personally don't place that much and emphasis on score as to care. But, since people vocally announce their lowballing ways, I supported the argument for scrubbing.
So this got all mixed up with the social aspect of the site and the ability to disagree but still be civil.
Let's all take some pictures. |
Just lovely, yet another suggestion that we impose our views on those who dare to express a view that runs counter to that of the collective.
We have a whole generation of individuals who expect society to cater to their every wish and we no longer keep score in games so as not to hurt anyone's feelings. We have even seen teachers fired for daring to fail students. Just how far do we let this folly go.
Get real folks, life is about both sucesses and failures and it is about time that some on this site gain a full appreciation of that fact.
Ray |
Thank you Ray. |
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09/07/2012 06:18:24 PM · #145 |
Is it time to pull this old thread back for a review? :-)
Voting styles and their effect |
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09/07/2012 06:38:47 PM · #146 |
amazing. truly amazing. surely  venser will have opinions if he hasn't already seen it. |
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09/07/2012 06:56:34 PM · #147 |
Originally posted by blindjustice:
Let's all take some pictures. |
It's this kind of crazy talk that scares away new people who come in looking for a brawl. Who do you think you are to insist that people use their cameras?!? |
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09/07/2012 07:27:18 PM · #148 |
Originally posted by mrchhas:
amazing. truly amazing. surely venser will have opinions if he hasn't already seen it. |
All that work to summarize the Central Limit Theorem; it's still worth a read for those not well versed in mathematics, it's fairly well written.
The problem with DJWoodward's analysis is it's based in facts, those scare people. If people came to accept the Central Limit Theorem, who would they blame when their image doesn't elicit the score they thought it would? People love scapegoats rather than personal responsibility.
Message edited by author 2012-09-07 19:40:30. |
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09/07/2012 08:18:27 PM · #149 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
Almost nobody seems to realize the true impact of scoring strategies, which is mathematical. Ribbons are based on *position*, not score.
An individual scorer's impact comes from the difference between their scores, not their overall average.
...
Because of this relative effect, I am going to use most of the range. Pictures that I dislike or leave me cold will usually get 3 or 2. Pictures that get my "ribbons" will get a 10. If I'm only giving gallery ribbons, then they will get a 10. Not because "10" means something to me, but because I want to separate them as much as possible from the photos I dislike.
Scoring is about math. |
I'd like to change my name to AlmostNobody. |
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09/07/2012 08:34:01 PM · #150 |
| I'm almost nobody. Who is almost you? |
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