Are gay rights, including gay marriage, evolving?

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

07/31/2012 03:27:12 PM · #5801

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by Nullix:
Seems this country won't tolerate Christians anymore. So much for freedom of religion, but we've be persecuted before. It was just easier in this country.

Lakewood Cake Shop Refuses Wedding Cake To Gay Couple

Let me see if I have this straight:

1. The owner of a cake shop refuses to make a wedding cake for a gay couple. He's exercising what he perceives to be his right to refuse service to anyone for any reason. He doesn't "believe" in the institution of gay marriage and he refuses to serve this couple for this reason. Some might say this is reasonable, some might say it's unreasonable; for the sake of argument, let's just say that's OK, he shouldn't have to sell cakes to gay couples.

2. The community, or a significant portion of it anyway, is reacting to this man's position by saying "Fine! Let's not buy cakes from this man at all; he doesn't like us/our friends very much."

My question for you, Mr. Nullix; if the first is acceptable, and it obviously is for you, then why isn't the second equally acceptable? How does it even remotely relate to the historical persecution of Christians?

R.

Fair point.

Originally posted by Mr. Binnacle:

The wind has changed, Sir. Seems to be comin' in from a new quarter.

NikonJeb

Nikon D850

Nikon AF-S Nikkor 28-300mm f3.5-5.6G ED VR

07/31/2012 04:10:03 PM · #5802

Originally posted by Nullix:

Seems this country won't tolerate Christians anymore. So much for freedom of religion, but we've be persecuted before. It was just easier in this country.

Lakewood Cake Shop Refuses Wedding Cake To Gay Couple

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Let me see if I have this straight:

1. The owner of a cake shop refuses to make a wedding cake for a gay couple. He's exercising what he perceives to be his right to refuse service to anyone for any reason. He doesn't "believe" in the institution of gay marriage and he refuses to serve this couple for this reason. Some might say this is reasonable, some might say it's unreasonable; for the sake of argument, let's just say that's OK, he shouldn't have to sell cakes to gay couples.

2. The community, or a significant portion of it anyway, is reacting to this man's position by saying "Fine! Let's not buy cakes from this man at all; he doesn't like us/our friends very much."

My question for you, Mr. Nullix; if the first is acceptable, and it obviously is for you, then why isn't the second equally acceptable? How does it even remotely relate to the historical persecution of Christians?

R.

Originally posted by Nullix:

Fair point.

I emboldened the part above since it seems you missed it. Robert asked you a QUESTION.

Perhaps you could answer the question?

It would be nice to see what you might be using to rationalize arriving at your comment regarding persecution.

Sony 24-70mm F4 Vario-Tessar T* FE OSS

07/31/2012 05:20:27 PM · #5803

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by Nullix:
Seems this country won't tolerate Christians anymore. So much for freedom of religion, but we've be persecuted before. It was just easier in this country.

Lakewood Cake Shop Refuses Wedding Cake To Gay Couple

Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Let me see if I have this straight:

1. The owner of a cake shop refuses to make a wedding cake for a gay couple. He's exercising what he perceives to be his right to refuse service to anyone for any reason. He doesn't "believe" in the institution of gay marriage and he refuses to serve this couple for this reason. Some might say this is reasonable, some might say it's unreasonable; for the sake of argument, let's just say that's OK, he shouldn't have to sell cakes to gay couples.

2. The community, or a significant portion of it anyway, is reacting to this man's position by saying "Fine! Let's not buy cakes from this man at all; he doesn't like us/our friends very much."

My question for you, Mr. Nullix; if the first is acceptable, and it obviously is for you, then why isn't the second equally acceptable? How does it even remotely relate to the historical persecution of Christians?

R.

Originally posted by Nullix:
Fair point.

I emboldened the part above since it seems you missed it. Robert asked you a QUESTION.

Perhaps you could answer the question?

It would be nice to see what you might be using to rationalize arriving at your comment regarding persecution.

Took this to mean he realized he can't answer the question and therefor it is a "fair point". I'll take it. ;)

Bear_Music

Samsung Galaxy S24 Ultra

07/31/2012 06:20:43 PM · #5804

Originally posted by escapetooz:

Took this to mean he realized he can't answer the question and therefor it is a "fair point". I'll take it. ;)

Me too; that's all the answer we needed there.

R.

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

08/01/2012 04:01:42 PM · #5805

Well, people who are planning boycotts for any future cause should probably take today into consideration. These things have a tendancy to backfire and now there is massive media attention reporting the startling fact that thousands and thousands of seemingly normal people went out of their way to support Cathy and/or his right to speak his mind. It's the top story on Google News at the moment.

At Friday's planned "kiss in" I wonder how many couples will furtively walk up to the counter and whisper, "hey, while I'm here, can I get some of those waffle fries with the polynesian sauce? It's pretty good stuff..." :)

Hopefully all this will be gone and the media will be onto the next thing in a few weeks.

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

08/01/2012 04:29:16 PM · #5806

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Hopefully all this will be gone and the media will be onto the next thing in a few weeks.

The proponents of Prop. 8 submitted their appeal to the SCOTUS yesterday ...

scarbrd

Leica M10

Leica 35mm f/1.4 Summilux M Aspherical MF - Black

08/01/2012 04:32:31 PM · #5807

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Hopefully 20-30 years from now people that participated today will look back with shame and embarrassment for supporting such nonsense. But I doubt it.

scalvert

08/01/2012 04:39:13 PM · #5808

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

thousands and thousands of seemingly normal people went out of their way to support Cathy and/or his right to speak his mind.

Thousands and thousands of seemingly normal people, including some prominent politicians, went out of their way to support the Montgomery Bus Lines in a counter protest to that boycott, too, and over a hundred congressmen pledged to overturn the Supreme Court's ruling that separate but equal is inherently unequal. A numbers fallacy does nothing to justify bigotry.

08/01/2012 05:04:14 PM · #5809

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
thousands and thousands of seemingly normal people went out of their way to support Cathy and/or his right to speak his mind.

Thousands and thousands of seemingly normal people, including some prominent politicians, went out of their way to support the Montgomery Bus Lines in a counter protest to that boycott, too, and over a hundred congressmen pledged to overturn the Supreme Court's ruling that separate but equal is inherently unequal. A numbers fallacy does nothing to justify bigotry.

Possible. The point though was that it attracts a lot of media attention with messages you don't necessarily want to get out. It cuts both ways and boycotts of Oreo or JC Penny or whatever are subject to the same risks. So today those bigots (your word) get their day in the sun thanks to people who wish they wouldn't have that day. As a general contrarian, it makes me chuckle contentedly.

EDIT; typo

Message edited by author 2012-08-01 17:04:40.

scalvert

08/01/2012 05:15:30 PM · #5810

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

So today those bigots (your word) get their day in the sun thanks to people who wish they wouldn't have that day. As a general contrarian, it makes me chuckle contentedly.

Then you should be guffawing out loud that the media attention and noise over Chick-Fil-A Appreciation day has led to thousands and thousands of people donating the cost of a chicken sandwich to Lambda Legal.

Leica 35mm f/1.4 Summilux M Aspherical MF - Black

08/01/2012 05:19:04 PM · #5811

Gasp! :D

scarbrd

Leica M10

08/01/2012 05:28:36 PM · #5812

This gal gets it!

Proverbs 25:21

OK, she uses air quotes a little too often, but makes a great point.

08/01/2012 05:33:10 PM · #5813

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Gasp! :D

I am still chuckling Shannon. A backlash to the backlash (to the backlash). Or are there more backlashes there? It does point to the silly nature of these things either way. Let's just eat food we like!

scalvert

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

08/01/2012 05:38:10 PM · #5814

Jason, you're gasping for err.

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

08/01/2012 05:39:18 PM · #5815

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Gasp! :D

I am still chuckling Shannon. A backlash to the backlash (to the backlash). Or are there more backlashes there? It does point to the silly nature of these things either way. Let's just eat food we like!

Here, you can eat and have your backlashing too ...

RayEthier

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 USM

08/01/2012 05:40:59 PM · #5816

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

... I'll take Voltaire's position with defending to the death your right to speak and all that...

...and Voltaire also said: "Every man is guilty of all the good he didn't do.", which should make one wonder what he would think of this ongoing scenario.

On the good side, we have none of these restaurants in Canada and it would seem that our level of acceptance is a quantum leap ahead of that our neighbours to the south.

Ray

08/01/2012 05:55:55 PM · #5817

Originally posted by RayEthier:

On the good side, we have none of these restaurants in Canada...Ray

A few did open, but they quickly closed due to the confusion when people asked, "Do you want to eat at the Chick-fil-a, eh?"

08/01/2012 06:01:50 PM · #5818

Originally posted by scarbrd:

This gal gets it!

Proverbs 25:21

OK, she uses air quotes a little too often, but makes a great point.

Yea I've tried these arguments a million times. The reaction is either completely ignoring the points or something along the lines of "well oooobbbviously those rules don't need to be followed, just the gay ones. The Bible was very clear!"

Say a lie enough times and the sheep will believe it. The Bible is very clear about gays! The Bible is very clear about gays. What? You have Bible quotes that say otherwise? No no no. I Toooold you, the Bible is very clear about gays!

RayEthier

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 USM

08/01/2012 06:02:40 PM · #5819

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by RayEthier:
On the good side, we have none of these restaurants in Canada...Ray

A few did open, but they quickly closed due to the confusion when people asked, "Do you want to eat at the Chick-fil-a, eh?"

:O) It's not our fault... Go ahead and spell out the name of this country out loud and then you will understand why we say "eh" all the time.

Ray

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

08/01/2012 06:10:18 PM · #5820

Thank goodness you're not a banana republic or you'd have an entire nation of stutterers ... ;-)

Mousie

08/02/2012 11:39:17 AM · #5821

Yeah, I'm sure it's totally hard to mobilize thousands of hierarchically organized people when their leaders and peers are lying to them about what it is they're protesting, demonizing the other in an effort to raise money and consolidate power. Because that NEVER happens. Oh no!

What I saw was 1000's of people protesting 'intolerant gays' for 'fiscally bullying' and 'denying free speech' to a successful business owner for 'standing up for traditional marriage' by 'speaking his mind'.

EXCEPT WE KNOW THAT'S NOT WHAT THIS IS ABOUT, RIGHT? There's those pesky quotes I've posted, putting the lie to this protest, and there's those undeniable anti-gay donations.

What I didn't see was 1000's of people protesting decent citizens for pushing back against a bigoted fool making pointedly hateful public statements and donating heaps of money specifically to deny gays their rights. But a protest did happen. Why? Because of people just like DrAchoo misrepresenting facts or willingly repeating falsehoods in a staggering display of disingenuous Christian victim-playing. It kind of takes away from the impact of a protest when it's founded on a mountain of BS.

So DrAchoo... take your 1000's and make yourself feel better through apparent consensus... you've latched right onto it... but you're still playing the same old game I've been calling you out on for days. When are you going to start looking past prejudice and clean up your own house? When will you stop excusing the evil of your peers just because of a shared tradition?

Mousie

08/02/2012 11:46:57 AM · #5822

Also, it is not startling in the least that you could find so many well-intentioned people to manipulate into an authority-driven backlash within religious communities. That's basically what you guys DO. Remember, this protest was not grass roots... It's Huckabee's baby. A man at the top set that little hoop up for y'all.

If there has been ANYTHING that has soured me on religion and stolen my hope for peaceful coexistence, it's dealing with it's members. You are a terrible emissary, Doc.

Message edited by author 2012-08-02 11:50:07.

08/02/2012 12:15:27 PM · #5823

I'm pretty sure you've been soured for a long time before you met me, Mouse. I'm sorry about that though. It's easy to love those that agree with you and hard to love those that don't. There is no doubt we all need to work harder on that. I have always tried to be careful with my words in these forums, but no amount of niceties will change the fact we have some fundamental disagreements. If your expectation is that I either fall in line or refuse to participate in discussion, you will be disappointed and that's the way it is.

I'd still be happy to have a beer with you if only to tug on that beard and make sure it's real. I'd bet a zillion dollars that if you bumped into me and didn't know it was DrAchoo you'd have thought our interaction was no different than any other that you had had that day.

08/02/2012 05:58:22 PM · #5824

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

How many straw mans DO you have in that closet Doc? You never seem to run out. Fall in line or refuse to participate in discussion? Was THAT what Mousie said cus I read something totally different.

He said open your eyes and stop defending the bigots just because they call themselves Christians. Open your eyes and see calling fire and brimstone on our entire culture just because some people that love each other want to get married has nothing to do with "family values". What about our families? Talk about not loving people that "disagree" with you. You can't claim to love people you don't think deserve the same rights as you so don't even try it. This bigger man condescending talk is getting old.