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06/27/2012 05:17:02 PM · #426 |
Originally posted by Mousie:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
regarding arms with no legitimate sporting or self-defense use. |
You know, 'legitimate' like using an ancient view camera with glass plates just because you find it interesting and a challenge.
In the age of high-performance digital cameras and post-processing, there's no legitimate use for ancient view cameras that hasn't been supplanted by better technology. Yet some people still enjoy using them. I wonder why. |
You think people should be able to "play around" with a 105mm howitzer of a boxful of hand grenades? I believe that somewhere on the continuum from wood club to hydrogen bomb there is some place where we should draw the line on unlimited/uncontrolled/unregulated personal possession of deadly weapons, but I'm not trying (here) to reach any consensus about exactly where that line should be located; if we can agree that there's such a line then the rest is fine-tuning ... |
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06/27/2012 05:55:53 PM · #427 |
In the state of Virginia:
You DO NOT need a permit to open carry or own a handgun if you are over the age of 18.
Handgun sales DO NOT have to go through a dealer.
Private sales DO NOT require a background check or proof of permit.
Firearms ARE NOT required to be registered.
So, the people buying and selling handguns privately in Virginia are not necessarily criminals. Additionally, one isn't a criminal until convicted of a crime (you are doing something illegal, but because you haven't been caught, tried, and sentenced, you ARE NOT restricted from gun ownership). So, lots of guns are trading hands in Virginia and making their way into the hands of people who intend to use them on people. So many in fact, that Virginia had to put a limit on the number of handguns one can purchase in some cases to one per month. The state of New York sued the State of Virginia back in 1993 because NY was able to prove that 40% of guns used in crimes in NY(that were recovered) came from the state of Virginia. However, Virginia has just repealed this law and will once again allow the sale of as many handguns as one wants.
The crime in DC is high (due to other factors) but guess where they get their guns?
Personally, I would prefer it if all handguns were illegal and there were stiff jail sentences for everyone caught carrying. But I am a realist. I know that people exist who feel that they NEED a gun. I just wish that states like Virginia wouldn't make it so easy for criminals and potential criminals to get guns and take them elsewhere. Like DC and Maryland.
edit to correct stat to 40%
Message edited by author 2012-06-27 19:45:39. |
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06/28/2012 08:15:43 AM · #428 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
You think people should be able to "play around" with a 105mm howitzer of a boxful of hand grenades? |
I think they can. It is highly restricted and regulated (like you would want), however I believe anyone with certain licenses can get possession of these items.
A couple of your points are sensible in my view. In post #424 you mention that you are not seeking "more" regulations, simply better effectiveness. And in post #426 your example using the continuum from wood club to Hydrogen bomb and identifying "some" line at which reasonable people can agree upon a level of accountability. In my view, those pursuing "more" regulations or restrictions or bans, are unaware of the present laws and regulations governing those items. It seems to me that becoming familiar with those laws might reduce the "tone" of the outcry.
During one portion of the Fast and Furious debacle in Arizona, one of the 20 main straw purchasers was on food stamps, yet able to spend $10,000 on firearms. The dealer contacted ATF with his suspicions about that buyer and ATF submitted their investigation material to Justice and Federal Prosecutors, who in turn decided NOT to prosecute. Enforcement of the law is part of the equation. For a prosecutor to claim that "technically" a law was not broken because the buyer could have been truthful at the time of purchase that the items bought were for personal use, then change their mind by the time they get to the parking lot and decide to sell those same items, is a bit of a stretch on the credibility scale. Especially when repeated. To have dealers willing to contact Federal agencies when suspicions arise, only to get rebuffed, doesn't help. The illegal gun trade is unwelcome by law abiding gun owners. Enforcement of the laws is critical. |
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06/28/2012 08:56:10 AM · #429 |
Originally posted by dahkota:
In the state of Virginia:
You DO NOT need a permit to open carry or own a handgun if you are over the age of 18.
Handgun sales DO NOT have to go through a dealer.
Private sales DO NOT require a background check or proof of permit.
Firearms ARE NOT required to be registered.
So, the people buying and selling handguns privately in Virginia are not necessarily criminals. Additionally, one isn't a criminal until convicted of a crime (you are doing something illegal, but because you haven't been caught, tried, and sentenced, you ARE NOT restricted from gun ownership). So, lots of guns are trading hands in Virginia and making their way into the hands of people who intend to use them on people. So many in fact, that Virginia had to put a limit on the number of handguns one can purchase in some cases to one per month. The state of New York sued the State of Virginia back in 1993 because NY was able to prove that 40% of guns used in crimes in NY(that were recovered) came from the state of Virginia. However, Virginia has just repealed this law and will once again allow the sale of as many handguns as one wants.
The crime in DC is high (due to other factors) but guess where they get their guns?
Personally, I would prefer it if all handguns were illegal and there were stiff jail sentences for everyone caught carrying. But I am a realist. I know that people exist who feel that they NEED a gun. I just wish that states like Virginia wouldn't make it so easy for criminals and potential criminals to get guns and take them elsewhere. Like DC and Maryland.
edit to correct stat to 40% |
Here some additional information on Virginia gun laws.
Virginia gun laws
A criminal history record information check is required prior to purchasing any firearm, except for an antique or its replica.
A licensed firearm dealer shall not deliver a rifle or shotgun to a non-resident until an approval report is received from the state police or 10 days have gone by, whichever comes first.
It is unlawful for a person convicted of a felony, or any person under 29 with a juvenile adjudication, as a 14-year-old or older, which would be a felony if committed by an adult, or a person acquitted by reason of insanity and committed to a mental institution, to possess or transport a firearm.
Training requirement for a concealed weapons permitProof includes completion of a firearm training course offered by the NRA, the state, or a school; participation in organized shooting competition or military service; or any governmental police agency firearms course; previously held a firearm carrying license.
Machine GunsA machine gun is defined as a weapon that shoots or is designed to shoot, automatically without manual reloading more than one shot by a single function of the trigger. Possession of a machine gun for an aggressive or offensive purpose is prohibited. All machine guns in the state must be registered within 24 hours of acquisition with the Department of State Police.
One handgun per monthThe 1993 law was a major legislative legacy of Democratic former Gov. L. Douglas Wilder, passed when Virginia was a favorite armory for East Coast criminals. It never applied to rifles or shotguns.The law was intended to stanch the flow of guns from Virginia to New York City and other metropolitan areas in the Northeast. In 1991, the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms found that 40 percent of the 1,236 guns found at crime scenes in New York had been purchased in Virginia.
Was the one gun per month effective at reducing the crime rates in DC or NY? Where did the other 60% come from?
more links...
Federal law
State laws
Message edited by author 2012-06-28 09:02:04. |
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06/28/2012 11:27:31 AM · #430 |
Originally posted by Mousie:
Given that I literally cut and pasted the word ridiculous from your post since I hate typing it, I'm pretty sure you said ridiculous. |
Originally posted by Flash:
Post #404 |
My apologies.....I stand corrected.
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06/28/2012 12:52:41 PM · #431 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
I am for more effective (not necessarily "more") and sensible regulation, and certain restrictions/limitations regarding arms with no legitimate sporting or self-defense use. |
This seems to be pretty darn sensible to me.
It would also be nice to see help and encouragement for firearm education and training for anyone who wants it.
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06/28/2012 01:04:31 PM · #432 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
I am for more effective (not necessarily "more") and sensible regulation, and certain restrictions/limitations regarding arms with no legitimate sporting or self-defense use. |
This seems to be pretty darn sensible to me.
It would also be nice to see help and encouragement for firearm education and training for anyone who wants it. |
I am pretty sure the NRA (among others) offers free (or low-cost?) firearms safety training -- I bet the bulletin board* at any local range will have information ...
*Some folks still prefer analog to Google ... ;-) |
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06/28/2012 01:32:59 PM · #433 |
| The wildlife fish and game dept here offers classes once a month for hunter safety / gun safety. There are also classes for getting your concealed weapons permit |
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06/28/2012 01:53:53 PM · #434 |
Originally posted by Flash:
A criminal history record information check is required prior to purchasing any firearm, except for an antique or its replica. |
Incorrect. "Licensed dealers must have the Virginia State Police conduct a background check prior to completing the sale of certain firearms. Persons who are not in the business of selling firearms, but make occasional, private sales, are not required to perform a background check before selling their firearms."
Originally posted by Flash:
A licensed firearm dealer shall not deliver a rifle or shotgun to a non-resident until an approval report is received from the state police or 10 days have gone by, whichever comes first. |
True. But no such requirement for private sales. And this isn't about handguns. Additionally: Section 18.2-308, Code of Virginia, authorizes the issuance of concealed handgun permits to non-Virginia residents.
Originally posted by Flash:
It is unlawful for a person convicted of a felony, or any person under 29 with a juvenile adjudication, as a 14-year-old or older, which would be a felony if committed by an adult, or a person acquitted by reason of insanity and committed to a mental institution, to possess or transport a firearm. |
True. But this is irrelevant to what I previously posted. You keep stating that it is a matter of crime control rather than gun availability. Your proposal is that police should spend more time finding people who are unlawfully carrying guns. However, you run into the same or similar problem as you do for random ID checks. And, I am sure the NRA would scream bloody murder if the police began randomly enforcing gun license and permit checks.
Originally posted by Flash:
Training requirement for a concealed weapons permitProof includes completion of a firearm training course offered by the NRA, the state, or a school; participation in organized shooting competition or military service; or any governmental police agency firearms course; previously held a firearm carrying license. |
True, but irrelevant and has no relation to what I posted. You can open carry in Virginia without a permit and without registering the handgun.
Originally posted by Flash:
Machine GunsA machine gun is defined as a weapon that shoots or is designed to shoot, automatically without manual reloading more than one shot by a single function of the trigger. Possession of a machine gun for an aggressive or offensive purpose is prohibited. All machine guns in the state must be registered within 24 hours of acquisition with the Department of State Police. |
Again, irrelevant to what I posted. I was discussing handguns. A machine gun is not a hand gun and it's permit and licensing requirements are not related.
Originally posted by Flash:
One handgun per monthThe 1993 law was a major legislative legacy of Democratic former Gov. L. Douglas Wilder, passed when Virginia was a favorite armory for East Coast criminals. It never applied to rifles or shotguns.The law was intended to stanch the flow of guns from Virginia to New York City and other metropolitan areas in the Northeast. In 1991, the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms found that 40 percent of the 1,236 guns found at crime scenes in New York had been purchased in Virginia.
Was the one gun per month effective at reducing the crime rates in DC or NY? Where did the other 60% come from? |
Yes. and...
"But the law worked. A 1996 before-and-after study by ATF, using trace data on more than 14,000 crime guns, found that it reduced by two-thirds the likelihood that a firearm recovered by police in the Northeast came from Virginia, rather than from another Southern state."
Some links for you:
Gun show loophole in Virginia
Virginians more likely to die by gun than by car
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06/28/2012 02:34:18 PM · #435 |
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Incorrect. "Licensed dealers must have the Virginia State Police conduct a background check prior to completing the sale of certain firearms. Persons who are not in the business of selling firearms, but make occasional, private sales, are not required to perform a background check before selling their firearms."
[b]If one is buying and selling guns, then they are in the gun sales business. Not sure what âoccasionalâ private sales are â but going to gun shows every weekend or month and selling multiple handguns is not by definition an occasional private sale. You keep posting that this huge amount of guns are the result of unscrupulous gun show sales then cite the law which specifically uses the term âoccasionalâ. The law clearly prohibits multiple and recurring gun sales â so if these are in fact happening â then it is a matter of enforcement of the law. I suspect that the lawful dealers at Virginia gun shows would support a crackdown on abusers of laws they themselves must comply with.[/b]
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You keep stating that it is a matter of crime control rather than gun availability. Your proposal is that police should spend more time finding people who are unlawfully carrying guns. However, you run into the same or similar problem as you do for random ID checks. And, I am sure the NRA would scream bloody murder if the police began randomly enforcing gun license and permit checks.
It is the NRA that keeps pushing for enforcement of the laws.
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You can open carry in Virginia without a permit and without registering the handgun.
Personally not a fan of open carry, nor the movement to rub peoples nose in it. I think it is a poor decision. That said, an openly carried firearm is hardly a common action by criminals and brings a natural attention to the carrier. Not what one normally associates with criminal behavior.
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"But the law worked. A 1996 before-and-after study by ATF, using trace data on more than 14,000 crime guns, found that it reduced by two-thirds the likelihood that a firearm recovered by police in the Northeast came from Virginia, rather than from another Southern state."
So 14,000 crime guns is an improvement? And the one handgun per month in Virginia was responsible? Sorry â not credible data.
Some links for you:
Gun show loophole in Virginia â
All this article says is that folks want enforcement.
Virginians more likely to die by gun than by car
1. Anything on Huffington Post raises my âBSâ meter
2. Did you happen to read the replies to the article. Seems like more than just me has there BS meters turned on.
Message edited by author 2012-06-28 14:36:14. |
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06/28/2012 05:27:45 PM · #436 |
OK to slightly get off subject for a sec....
It just amazes me that there are people in the US...or any other country for that matter... That want all weapons outlawed. The only people that should have them are police and the military....and these people are usually pretty iffy on the military.
I talked to someone the other day that feels like this. When she said the above statement I responded with: What are you gonna do if someone breaks into your house while u are there.....she said "call the police"....I then told her what happens when he attacks you and yanks the phone out of the wall. she responded: scream....
I told her all those answers were incorrect...The only thing that should have been heard by the neighbors was the report of a firearm.
eta: OK back on subject....I just had to vent
Message edited by author 2012-06-28 17:28:57.
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06/28/2012 06:42:37 PM · #437 |
Originally posted by cowboy221977:
OK to slightly get off subject for a sec....
It just amazes me that there are people in the US...or any other country for that matter... That want all weapons outlawed. The only people that should have them are police and the military....and these people are usually pretty iffy on the military.
I talked to someone the other day that feels like this. When she said the above statement I responded with: What are you gonna do if someone breaks into your house while u are there.....she said "call the police"....I then told her what happens when he attacks you and yanks the phone out of the wall. she responded: scream....
I told her all those answers were incorrect...The only thing that should have been heard by the neighbors was the report of a firearm.
eta: OK back on subject....I just had to vent |
You mean the report of a firearm when the person(s) take it from the woman and use it against her because she's improperly trained and bought a 'gun because someone said I should have one' from another neighbor that happened to have an extra one that they were willing to sell her 'on the sly' in order to better 'protect' herself with?
All in the interests of best intentions, of course.
ETA: I can play the "what if..." game too! Thing is, there is no right answer there. A home invasion is an off-chance happenstance that requires multiple responses to multiple scenarios. The best scenario is, of course, getting out of the house undetected and going for help. Other scenarios include being able to successfully call law enforcement on the sly, disabling the intruder by any means necessary, or successfully waiting out the intrusion in hiding. (Among others). The last scenario I would wish on anyone, is having to shoot and/or kill anyone, even someone breaking into your home. Especially if that person isn't trained to HANDLE such a traumatic experience. You are a soldier, perhaps you could handle killing someone, or you've detached yourself so much that you equate property loss as being more important than the loss of human life, but not everyone is so equipped.
Quite frankly, while you believe that a gun is the best scenario and the "right" answer to a situation you've proposed, it isn't.
Message edited by author 2012-06-28 18:52:20. |
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06/29/2012 11:33:03 AM · #438 |
Originally posted by K10DGuy:
Thing is, there is no right answer there. A home invasion is an off-chance happenstance that requires multiple responses to multiple scenarios. The best scenario is, of course, getting out of the house undetected and going for help. Other scenarios include being able to successfully call law enforcement on the sly, disabling the intruder by any means necessary, or successfully waiting out the intrusion in hiding. (Among others). The last scenario I would wish on anyone, is having to shoot and/or kill anyone, even someone breaking into your home. Especially if that person isn't trained to HANDLE such a traumatic experience. |
+1
Well said...
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07/26/2012 05:38:22 PM · #439 |
So... this Colorado shooting. I read all of his guns were legal. But yea... "now isn't the time" to talk about gun laws, says so many people on the news. Why not? Seems to be precisely the time.
"Now is not the time." Daily show segment.
Message edited by author 2012-07-26 17:38:42. |
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07/26/2012 05:46:51 PM · #440 |
Originally posted by escapetooz:
So... this Colorado shooting. I read all of his guns were legal. But yea... "now isn't the time" to talk about gun laws, says so many people on the news. Why not? Seems to be precisely the time.
"Now is not the time." Daily show segment. |
Sadly, the link cannot be viewed from where I live.
Ray |
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07/26/2012 05:56:49 PM · #441 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by escapetooz:
So... this Colorado shooting. I read all of his guns were legal. But yea... "now isn't the time" to talk about gun laws, says so many people on the news. Why not? Seems to be precisely the time.
"Now is not the time." Daily show segment. |
Sadly, the link cannot be viewed from where I live.
Ray |
What? Where do you live? I used to watch him in Korea. I thought Comedy Central was really cool about other countries...? Maybe they just had a deal with Korea... |
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07/26/2012 06:02:45 PM · #442 |
Originally posted by escapetooz:
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by escapetooz:
So... this Colorado shooting. I read all of his guns were legal. But yea... "now isn't the time" to talk about gun laws, says so many people on the news. Why not? Seems to be precisely the time.
"Now is not the time." Daily show segment. |
Sadly, the link cannot be viewed from where I live.
Ray |
What? Where do you live? I used to watch him in Korea. I thought Comedy Central was really cool about other countries...? Maybe they just had a deal with Korea... |
I live in Canada, approximately 20 miles from the New York border... Not the first time where I cannot access video from the USA.
Ray |
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07/26/2012 06:11:54 PM · #443 |
Originally posted by escapetooz:
So... this Colorado shooting. I read all of his guns were legal. But yea... "now isn't the time" to talk about gun laws, says so many people on the news. Why not? Seems to be precisely the time. |
But you know if guns were illegal then something else would be used to murder lots of people, like baseball bats, knives, toothpicks, etc. Of course being able to stab 58 people in a theater using just a pez dispenser might be something that only the Flash, of comic book lore, could accomplish but hey at least it's possible... maybe... sorta... ok not really but that's besides the point. Oh wait, what was the point? Oh yeah, I like me guns!
Message edited by author 2012-07-26 18:12:39. |
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07/27/2012 12:38:17 PM · #444 |
Originally posted by escapetooz:
So... this Colorado shooting. I read all of his guns were legal. But yea... "now isn't the time" to talk about gun laws, says so many people on the news. Why not? Seems to be precisely the time.
"Now is not the time." Daily show segment. |
Jon Stewart can be very entertaining - even when his clips used are taken out of context. To answer your question (which I think you already know the answer to) the pro-gun rights folks get bit tired of when a tragedy of this type ocurrs, the anti-gun zealots seem to use these as a means to advance their agenda. This being a close election (at least per current polls) - Democrats are a bit leary of a 1994 type backlash and Republicans cannot afford to alienate any portaion of their base. Thus, this topic is not at the forefront now for fear of losing votes. Presdient Obama has recently mentioned that AK-47's are meant for the battlefields of war and not for civilian use on our streets. Not sure what that has to do with the theater shooting as no AK-47 was used. Further, automaic AK-47's are illegal to own and cannot be owned by civilians without special permits and fees paid. The semi-automatic rifle used by Holmes (that jammed) was no different functionally than any other semi-automatic rifle - except it was black. The assault weapons ban that many in congress remember and attribute to the losses of many congressional seats a few years back, was for the most part a ban on cosmetics. The term "assault" was converterd from the correct full automatic use to portray weapons that looked similar but functioned differently. Large capacity magazines (like the 100 round drum used in the Colorado Theater) do deserve to be in the discussion and should be vetted.
Regarding when is the time - it is always the right time to discuss and challange laws that one feels strongly about. |
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07/27/2012 02:45:44 PM · #445 |
Originally posted by Flash:
To answer your question (which I think you already know the answer to) the pro-gun rights folks get bit tired of when a tragedy of this type ocurrs, the anti-gun zealots seem to use these as a means to advance their agenda. |
The unarmed part of the populace is getting tired of being shot at and killed. I'm sure the gun rights folks are a bit tired to our objecting to being shot, but we find it a bit irksome to be killed. While I guess I am one of those "Zealots" with an "Agenda" if we had to take a six month break to look at the issue every time some nut job killed a dozen people, we can safely say it will never happen. Until something changes we can look forward to these small scale massacres taking place every few months. We need to tighten up the waiting period to be at least as short as the time between massacres.
Originally posted by Flash:
This being a close election (at least per current polls) - Democrats are a bit leary of a 1994 type backlash and Republicans cannot afford to alienate any portaion of their base. |
Given the state of campaign finance laws, our elected officials are now effectively always running for office. The two year cycle of congress is punctuated by about an eighteen month campaign cycle. We seem to have lost the notion of a sitting government seeking the best policy through study and consensus, we are now a nation divided into interest groups and donor blocks.
In summary, if we accept your timing, we can never look at gun laws because they will always be too near a massacre or an election.
Message edited by author 2012-07-27 15:27:41. |
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07/27/2012 10:40:43 PM · #446 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
In summary, if we accept your timing, we can never look at gun laws because they will always be too near a massacre or an election. |
Seems to be the point, no? Sneaky sneaky.
Dan Gross Gun Law Activist on The Colbert Report |
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07/27/2012 10:59:23 PM · #447 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by escapetooz:
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by escapetooz:
So... this Colorado shooting. I read all of his guns were legal. But yea... "now isn't the time" to talk about gun laws, says so many people on the news. Why not? Seems to be precisely the time.
"Now is not the time." Daily show segment. |
Sadly, the link cannot be viewed from where I live.
Ray |
What? Where do you live? I used to watch him in Korea. I thought Comedy Central was really cool about other countries...? Maybe they just had a deal with Korea... |
I live in Canada, approximately 20 miles from the New York border... Not the first time where I cannot access video from the USA.
Ray |
It's because The Comedy Network in Canada has streaming/publishing rights to video from The Daily Show and The Colbert Report (among others), so Comedy Central and The Comedy Network have a "no access" agreement. You can watch the Daily Show clip on www.thecomedynetwork.ca |
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07/28/2012 11:54:55 AM · #448 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
The unarmed part of the populace is getting tired of being shot at and killed. I'm sure the gun rights folks are a bit tired to our objecting to being shot, but we find it a bit irksome to be killed. |
+1
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07/28/2012 04:12:49 PM · #449 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
The unarmed part of the populace is getting tired of being shot at and killed. I'm sure the gun rights folks are a bit tired to our objecting to being shot, but we find it a bit irksome to be killed. |
I have a solution to your prob....Get a gun and shoot back.
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07/28/2012 04:31:27 PM · #450 |
Originally posted by cowboy221977:
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
The unarmed part of the populace is getting tired of being shot at and killed. I'm sure the gun rights folks are a bit tired to our objecting to being shot, but we find it a bit irksome to be killed. |
I have a solution to your prob....Get a gun and shoot back. |
Yea! Let's all just kill each other! |
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