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06/21/2012 01:12:31 AM · #351 |
Originally posted by David Ey:
You aren't going far enough back in history pal. You might also want to have a look at who wants you dead and what they are teaching their children about us heathens. I'd wager there is not one Mosque that does not collect money for this cause. |
I'm pretty sure that if you were born over there and had the same attitude, you woud be one of their most ardent supporters, no doubt about it. |
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06/21/2012 01:04:04 PM · #352 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
We DO give murderers guns! That's what we're talking about! R. |
Hmmmm. Last I checked, those with felony convictions were restricted from owning firearms. Murder, the last I knew was a felony. |
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06/21/2012 01:14:44 PM · #353 |
| Unless you have the right of executive privilege. |
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06/21/2012 01:24:41 PM · #354 |
Originally posted by Flash:
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
We DO give murderers guns! That's what we're talking about! R. |
Hmmmm. Last I checked, those with felony convictions were restricted from owning firearms. Murder, the last I knew was a felony. |
Use the full context, willya?
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
We DO give murderers guns! That's what we're talking about! Anyone who is really determined to have a gun, in America, can get one. |
In other words; Joe gets a gun, and THEN commits a felony murder. You do realize that happens, right? And even in your idealized view of things, your fresh-out-of-prison felon can get a gunb if he wants one, no problem. It's illegal, sure, but that's not gonna stop your hard-core felon, now is it?
R.
Message edited by author 2012-06-21 13:27:15.
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06/21/2012 01:27:39 PM · #355 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by Flash:
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
We DO give murderers guns! That's what we're talking about! R. |
Hmmmm. Last I checked, those with felony convictions were restricted from owning firearms. Murder, the last I knew was a felony. |
Use the full context, willya?
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
We DO give murderers guns! That's what we're talking about! Anyone who is really determined to have a gun, in America, can get one. |
R. |
Anyone who is determined to get a gun anywhere can get one - what does that have to do with America? |
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06/21/2012 01:28:24 PM · #356 |
| The operative word being "determined". |
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06/21/2012 01:29:54 PM · #357 |
It is still illegal for those convicted of a Felony to be in possession of or use a firearm.
I am obviously missing your point. |
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06/21/2012 01:35:41 PM · #358 |
The point is, we need to make it a LOT harder for people to get guns. The people we want to keep guns out of the hands of aren't having any trouble getting guns. The anti-gun-control folks use this as a justification for not having gun controls; "The criminals will still get guns, but we law-abiding citizens won't be able to defend ourselves." A remarkable piece of sophistry, that, but it's a wide-spread argument. IMO we need to do whatever we can to dry up the supply of guns, especially handguns.
Regarding "What does that have to do with America?", it's easier to get a gun here than any other industrialized nation I'm aware of.
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06/21/2012 01:36:48 PM · #359 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
[In other words; Joe gets a gun, and THEN commits a felony murder. You do realize that happens, right? And even in your idealized view of things, your fresh-out-of-prison felon can get a gunb if he wants one, no problem. It's illegal, sure, but that's not gonna stop your hard-core felon, now is it?
R. |
So let me see if I am understanding you. You claim that "joe" goes and buys a gun - legally - passes a background check, gets fingerprinted, has his identity in full in the data banks - THEN he decides to go out and commit a murder. Is that what you're saying? |
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06/21/2012 01:42:06 PM · #360 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
The point is, we need to make it a LOT harder for people to get guns. The people we want to keep guns out of the hands of aren't having any trouble getting guns. The anti-gun-control folks use this as a justification for not having gun controls; "The criminals will still get guns, but we law-abiding citizens won't be able to defend ourselves." A remarkable piece of sophistry, that, but it's a wide-spread argument. IMO we need to do whatever we can to dry up the supply of guns, especially handguns.
Regarding "What does that have to do with America?", it's easier to get a gun here than any other industrialized nation I'm aware of. |
I can't speak for the entire country, but where I live (the number 1 and number 2 crime cities in the nation - over 100,000 people) the only people who have "easy access" as you portray it are the criminals. The legal process of buying a gun requires paperwork, background checks, and files at the local Sheriff before possession can be had. Even gun show vendors require paperwork and are required to file it and obtain a background check on any purchaser. Those with lawful CCW's (concealed carry wepon) or CPL's (concealed pistol license) can bypass the background check but they already have have passed the background check and have their fingerprints on file. Plus they were mandated to classrrom and range profiency time. Seems to me you have a problem with criminals and want to punish the law abiding.
Message edited by author 2012-06-21 13:48:34. |
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06/21/2012 01:49:55 PM · #361 |
Originally posted by Flash:
So let me see if I am understanding you. You claim that "joe" goes and buys a gun - legally - passes a background check, gets fingerprinted, has his identity in full in the data banks - THEN he decides to go out and commit a murder. Is that what you're saying? |
No. The "Joe" I'm hypothetically referring to belongs to a gang but has never been convicted of a felony. He's not about to apply for a carry permit, though. My point is that saying "it's illegal for felons to have guns" means absolutely nothing. The guns are available and they do have them. We need to clamp down on the proliferation of firearms big-time. I'm convinced of this.
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06/21/2012 01:53:20 PM · #362 |
I'm all for people deciding for themselves that guns are not for them. Great! Don't own one.
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06/21/2012 01:55:50 PM · #363 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by Flash:
So let me see if I am understanding you. You claim that "joe" goes and buys a gun - legally - passes a background check, gets fingerprinted, has his identity in full in the data banks - THEN he decides to go out and commit a murder. Is that what you're saying? |
No. The "Joe" I'm hypothetically referring to belongs to a gang but has never been convicted of a felony. He's not about to apply for a carry permit, though. My point is that saying "it's illegal for felons to have guns" means absolutely nothing. The guns are available and they do have them. We need to clamp down on the proliferation of firearms big-time. I'm convinced of this. |
This "joe" you reference is already breaking the law by obtaining an illegal gun via an illegal sale. Again you are describing a crime problem. What does that have to do with legally owned firearms by lawful citizens? |
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06/21/2012 02:00:23 PM · #364 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
We need to clamp down on the proliferation of firearms big-time. I'm convinced of this. |
Maybe you support the current inquisition into the Justice Department's handling of the "Fast and Furious" scandal? |
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06/21/2012 06:04:50 PM · #365 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
The point is, we need to make it a LOT harder for people to get guns. The people we want to keep guns out of the hands of aren't having any trouble getting guns. The anti-gun-control folks use this as a justification for not having gun controls; "The criminals will still get guns, but we law-abiding citizens won't be able to defend ourselves." A remarkable piece of sophistry, that, but it's a wide-spread argument. IMO we need to do whatever we can to dry up the supply of guns, especially handguns.
Regarding "What does that have to do with America?", it's easier to get a gun here than any other industrialized nation I'm aware of. |
Originally posted by Flash:
I can't speak for the entire country, but where I live (the number 1 and number 2 crime cities in the nation - over 100,000 people) the only people who have "easy access" as you portray it are the criminals. The legal process of buying a gun requires paperwork, background checks, and files at the local Sheriff before possession can be had. Even gun show vendors require paperwork and are required to file it and obtain a background check on any purchaser. Those with lawful CCW's (concealed carry wepon) or CPL's (concealed pistol license) can bypass the background check but they already have have passed the background check and have their fingerprints on file. Plus they were mandated to classrrom and range profiency time. Seems to me you have a problem with criminals and want to punish the law abiding. |
Stop being obtuse, Flash......you know perfectly well pretty much anyone can get a gun easily. The gun shows you're talking about are one of the easiest places if you've got cash.
And nowhere did Bear say anything about punishing anyone......he was merely bemoaning the sad state of how easy it is to obtain guns.
It strikes me as odd that anyone can walk into a Wal-Mart and buy a high-powered rifle.
You *really* think that's a good idea?
Message edited by author 2012-06-21 18:05:30.
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06/21/2012 08:42:14 PM · #366 |
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06/22/2012 09:25:19 AM · #367 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
...you know perfectly well pretty much anyone can get a gun easily. The gun shows you're talking about are one of the easiest places if you've got cash....
It strikes me as odd that anyone can walk into a Wal-Mart and buy a high-powered rifle. |
You are simply wrong.
1. It is not easy to get a gun legally. Its not even easy to get one illegally.
2. "anyone" cannot walk into a Walmart and buy a high powered rifle.
3. Bear's concern was the proliferation of handguns and their use by gang members.
If you have so much first hand knowledge on how easy it is to get an illegal handgun and use it for a felony, then I suggest you share that information with your local law enforcement agency.
Go try and buy an automatic rifle or handgun. See how much paperwork and money (tax) is invloved in a legal purchase and how much "risk" is involved in an illegal purchase. Then preach to me about how easy it is.
eta: Have you ever talked to an FFL dealer about the requirements of a gun sale? The requirements are the same at their business or at a gunshow.
Message edited by author 2012-06-22 09:50:00. |
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06/22/2012 09:45:27 AM · #368 |
Here is some information on the requirements of FFL holders.
FFL
FFL - 2
"Q: What are the record keeping requirements for FFL’s?
Licensees must maintain records of all firearms receipts and dispositions, including the name, age, and place of residence of purchasers. 18 USC 922(b)(5) and 923(g)(1)(A). Licensed importers and manufacturers are required to identify firearms they import or manufacture by means of a serial number, which must be recorded in licensee records. 18 USC 923(i). Licensees are required to respond immediately to ATF firearms trace requests. 18 USC 923(g)(6). Reports of multiple sales of two or more handguns sold at one time or during any five consecutive business days are also required to be submitted to ATF. 18 USC 923(g)(3). Licensees who discontinue business must deliver their records to ATF. 18 USC 923(g)(4).
These requirements enable ATF to carry out one of the principal purposes of the GCA—to assist State, local, and foreign law enforcement officials in tracing firearms used in crime.
The United States government does not maintain records of licensees’ firearms transactions, other than the previously mentioned out-of-business records, reports of multiple handgun sales, and records of firearms traces. The assimilation of the information from these records provides valuable leads in the identification of illegal gun traffickers and their sources of firearms in the United States.
Regulations at 22 CFR 122.5 require that records of all transactions authorized by export, temporary import, and temporary export licenses must be maintained by the applicant for a period of 5 years. The records must be made available to United States Customs officers upon demand. These transactions are also computerized at the Department of State and Customs ports."
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06/22/2012 09:48:29 AM · #369 |
| Walmart cannot sell firearms without an FFL. The FFL requirement on a sale is for "Licensees must maintain records of all firearms receipts and dispositions, including the name, age, and place of residence of purchasers. " Not my definition of easy - even with "cash". |
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06/22/2012 10:21:16 AM · #370 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
...you know perfectly well pretty much anyone can get a gun easily. The gun shows you're talking about are one of the easiest places if you've got cash....
It strikes me as odd that anyone can walk into a Wal-Mart and buy a high-powered rifle. |
Originally posted by Flash:
You are simply wrong.
1. It is not easy to get a gun legally. |
Umm....yes it is. There's a ready availability of rifles and shotguns that are quite easy to buy.
Originally posted by Flash:
Its not even easy to get one illegally. |
Again, it's simply not that hard. I live in a fairly rural area, and there are quite a few good ol' boys buying and selling guns in and out of their collections who aren't really all that concerned about background checks and legalities. I also live near enough to a city where "The Projects" are readily available and you can buy anything you want.....if you're brave enough to venture there.
Originally posted by Flash:
2. "anyone" cannot walk into a Walmart and buy a high powered rifle. |
Well, you do have to be 18, and produce ID, and give up a home address and all, but any clean and clear citizen can do that.......and purchase something like this.....
Mossberg Tactical Shotgun
Just the thing for keeping those pesky squirrels off the birdfeeder, right?
Originally posted by Flash:
3. Bear's concern was the proliferation of handguns and their use by gang members. |
No kidding......aren't you concerned about that, too? I am.
Originally posted by Flash:
If you have so much first hand knowledge on how easy it is to get an illegal handgun and use it for a felony, then I suggest you share that information with your local law enforcement agency. |
Yeah......I'm looking to put myself in the spotlight for something common knowledge like this why?
Originally posted by Flash:
Go try and buy an automatic rifle or handgun. See how much paperwork and money is invloved in a legal purchase and how much "risk" is involved in an illegal purchase. Then preach to me about how easy it is. |
Yes, handguns & automatics are harder to get, thank goodness, but it's easy to get conversion kits to convert semis to full automatic, too. Ya know.....it's funny, I don't even own a gun, but I've been surrounded by people my whole life who hunt, collect guns, or are simply armed. I don't know where you live, but if you think it's hard to get your hands on a firearm, you're simply unaware of what's out there.
Originally posted by Flash:
eta: Have you ever talked to an FFL dealer about the requirements of a gun sale? The requirements are the same at their business or at a gunshow. |
Yes, they are.......and there are *NO* unscrupulous dealers out there, right?
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06/22/2012 10:32:21 AM · #371 |
"However, due to a loophole in federal and state law, unlicensed sellers are also allowed to sell firearms at Virginia gun shows without conducting background checks on purchasers. The Virginia State Police report that between 22 and 35 percent of the firearms sellers at Virginia gun shows do not possess an FFL and are not required by law to perform background checks. "
Virginia is known for very lax gun laws. You don't need to buy them illegally when it is very easy to get them legally.
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06/22/2012 10:43:11 AM · #372 |
Check out the Guns International Listings: thousands of guns for sale, many (if not most) by private parties, tons of handguns.
Message edited by author 2012-06-22 10:43:24.
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06/22/2012 11:19:13 AM · #373 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Again, it's simply not that hard. I live in a fairly rural area, and there are quite a few good ol' boys buying and selling guns in and out of their collections who aren't really all that concerned about background checks and legalities. I also live near enough to a city where "The Projects" are readily available and you can buy anything you want.....if you're brave enough to venture there. |
So you have personal knowledge of neighbors illegally selling firearms. And you remain quiet - preferring to boast of it on a photography site. You are the problem. If your rural good
'ol boys are selling firearms without regard to "legalities" as you posted, then you should call the ATF. What I suspect you really mean is that some farmers who are upstanding citizens in their own right, who have passed background checks for the guns in their collections, are having a private sale with another person who has previously passed a background check and adding a firearm to their collection. That scenario is vastly different than the implied rampant illegal sale of fireamrs and the total disregard for the law by otherwise law abiding gunowners.
Fess up - which is it? Are you the problem or trying to make one up? |
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06/22/2012 11:27:17 AM · #374 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Check out the Guns International Listings: thousands of guns for sale, many (if not most) by private parties, tons of handguns. |
Bear - lots of items are for sale all over the world. It doesn't change the laws requirements upon buying or selling. The most eggregious act of violating the law was our own Justice Department - who coerced law abiding FFL dealers to sell illegal guns to illegal buyers. Your focus on illegal guns reads like verbage from the anti-gun activists - who are about as accurately informed as MSNBC. |
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06/22/2012 11:29:47 AM · #375 |
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