Birth control rant - DPChallenge Forums

05/04/2012 12:38:50 PM · #1176

Originally posted by Mousie:

So when a doctor refuses to honor an existing contract DURING emergency healthcare, despite your repeated, forceful expression of your continued desire for a procedure that should have already been performed years ago, one which, if it HAD been performed, would have prevented the very situation you find yourself in today, you should do...

What? Write a stern review on Yelp?

Claims that the paternalistic days of healthcare are over are completely voided by the FACT that this is a paternalistic healthcare situation we're discussing. That is the very definition of 'not over'.

Exactly. This is still going on. Like I mentioned earlier, just google the procedure along with doctor refusal and you'll see tons of stories about this very thing going on right now.

05/04/2012 12:42:42 PM · #1177

My point was the days of accepted paternalistic medicine are over. Two generations ago that was the accepted model. The doctor knew best and you did what he said. Kelli said this doctor was old and it may well have been the method he was taught. Like all models it has its pros and cons, but it's not the model that is taught in medical schools these days.

Message edited by author 2012-05-04 12:44:08.

scalvert

05/04/2012 01:27:16 PM · #1178

Originally posted by Kelli:

This is still going on.

Yes, and invariably at the direction of bishops or legislators who never set foot in a medical school, and over the objections of the medical professionals.

Nullix

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

05/04/2012 06:21:30 PM · #1179

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by Kelli:
This is still going on.

Yes, and invariably at the direction of bishops or legislators who never set foot in a medical school, and over the objections of the medical professionals.

Tubal ligations and vasectomies aren't procedures to improve the body. It's not like your body is damaged, working improperly and needs to be amputated for you to survive. This is like someone not liking the left arm (since they're right handed) and want to remove it.

If you want that done, go find a doctor and facilities that will do it, but don't expect it from a hospital who treats the body with respect.

frisca

Nikon D70

Nikon AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.8D

05/04/2012 06:25:41 PM · #1180

Originally posted by Nullix:

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by Kelli:
This is still going on.

Yes, and invariably at the direction of bishops or legislators who never set foot in a medical school, and over the objections of the medical professionals.

Tubal ligations and vasectomies aren't procedures to improve the body. It's not like your body is damaged, working improperly and needs to be amputated for you to survive. This is like someone not liking the left arm (since they're right handed) and want to remove it.

If you want that done, go find a doctor and facilities that will do it, but don't expect it from a hospital who treats the body with respect.

Wow. WOW. You've at once completely discounted the many (and demonstrably) valid reasons that someone would want or need a TL or vasectomy, and put hospitals on a pedestal far and above any reproach. Well done. Please invite me to your planet, I want to see the colour of the sky there.

CJinCA

Canon EOS-7D

05/04/2012 06:47:00 PM · #1181

Originally posted by frisca:

Originally posted by Nullix:

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by Kelli:
This is still going on.

Yes, and invariably at the direction of bishops or legislators who never set foot in a medical school, and over the objections of the medical professionals.

Tubal ligations and vasectomies aren't procedures to improve the body. It's not like your body is damaged, working improperly and needs to be amputated for you to survive. This is like someone not liking the left arm (since they're right handed) and want to remove it.

If you want that done, go find a doctor and facilities that will do it, but don't expect it from a hospital who treats the body with respect.

Wow. WOW. You've at once completely discounted the many (and demonstrably) valid reasons that someone would want or need a TL or vasectomy, and put hospitals on a pedestal far and above any reproach. Well done. Please invite me to your planet, I want to see the colour of the sky there.

I just am thankful Nullix and his ilk don't rule the world because we women would be preggers and barefoot all the time! :-)

As you can probably guess by looking at the average number of children per family in the USA, most couples must either practice birth control (condoms, pills etc), have abortions, or have had tubals or vasectomies. Personally, I think surgery is the best form of permanent birth control when a couple (or the individual) decides they have had as many children as they want. Glad you were finally able to get yours Kelli. :-)

Nullix

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

05/04/2012 06:57:22 PM · #1182

Originally posted by CJinCA:

I just am thankful Nullix and his ilk don't rule the world because we women would be preggers and barefoot all the time!

I should warn you, if my ilk are the only ones having kids, we will have the voting block.

CJinCA

Canon EOS-7D

05/04/2012 06:59:18 PM · #1183

Originally posted by Nullix:

Originally posted by CJinCA:
I just am thankful Nullix and his ilk don't rule the world because we women would be preggers and barefoot all the time!

I should warn you, if my ilk are the only ones having kids, we will have the voting block.

Very true - and I don't think it will be Christians who will rule the world.

RayEthier

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 USM

05/04/2012 07:03:13 PM · #1184

Originally posted by Nullix:

Originally posted by scalvert:
[quote=Kelli]This is still going on.

...Tubal ligations and vasectomies aren't procedures to improve the body...

... and of course circumcision does what to improve the body?

You are of course aware of the fact that the Catholic church has over the years developed a neutral stance on this issue... I guess they pretty much had to considering that Jesus underwent the procedure.

Ray

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

05/04/2012 07:18:32 PM · #1185

Originally posted by RayEthier:

Originally posted by Nullix:

Originally posted by scalvert:
[quote=Kelli]This is still going on.

...Tubal ligations and vasectomies aren't procedures to improve the body...

... and of course circumcision does what to improve the body?

Actually, it is one of the most effective ways of preventing HIV infection, but of course that's just another reason for the Catholic Church to be against it ...

Mousie

05/04/2012 08:33:53 PM · #1186

Nullix, my brother and father have both received vasectomies, after having two kids each.

Are you suggesting they have not treated their bodies with respect? Are you denigrating my family's ability to decide what is proper for itself?

It wouldn't be the first time.

Mousie

05/04/2012 08:35:26 PM · #1187

Originally posted by Nullix:

And I, it can be assumed based on historical precedent, would have the chopping block.

Edit:

I admit it's nice to see the work 'ilk' getting used by both sides of a discussion without anyone getting their panties in a twist and manufacturing a controversy. *pointed stare at you know who*

Message edited by author 2012-05-04 20:37:09.

Nullix

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

05/04/2012 08:47:57 PM · #1188

Originally posted by Mousie:

Nullix, my brother and father have both received vasectomies, after having two kids each.

Are you suggesting they have not treated their bodies? with respect? Are you denigrating my family's ability to decide what is proper for itself?

Why does it matter what I think? If I believed in not eating meat and you told me your family does.

What does it matter. Just don't force me to provide you meat.

Kelli

Canon EOS-D60

Sony 24-70mm F4 Vario-Tessar T* FE OSS

05/04/2012 08:51:22 PM · #1189

Originally posted by Nullix:

Originally posted by Mousie:
Nullix, my brother and father have both received vasectomies, after having two kids each.

Are you suggesting they have not treated their bodies? with respect? Are you denigrating my family's ability to decide what is proper for itself?

Why does it matter what I think? If I believed in not eating meat and you told me your family does.

What does it matter. Just don't force me to provide you meat.

So much for Catholic charity. ;P (and that's a joke if you don't notice the smiley face)

Bear_Music

Samsung Galaxy S24 Ultra

05/04/2012 10:24:26 PM · #1190

Nullix, you don't seem to understand that for literally EVERYTHING the government mandates, there's one subgroup or another that doesn't agree. Everything would come to a standstill if we accommodated every objection by stopping the "offensive" behavior. Sometimes you just gotta suck it up, man. It's just the way things are.

scalvert

05/04/2012 10:54:43 PM · #1191

Originally posted by Nullix:

Um... screwball argument aside, you miss the point. From the same article: "Last year a bishop excommunicated Sister Margaret Mary McBride, who took part in a Phoenix hospital's decision to terminate a pregnancy to save the expectant mother's life. This was a bishop with zero medical training attempting to dictate hospital treatment over the objections of doctors faced with a "close to 100 percent" chance of the baby and woman BOTH dying if they didn't act. The bishop was literally prepared to kill them both for the sake of religious dogma. That is NOT treating the body (or women) with respect. It's not even basic medical practice.

Nikon AF-S Nikkor 28-300mm f3.5-5.6G ED VR

05/05/2012 12:03:49 AM · #1192

That is pretty screwball, but thankfully the sister was later brought back into the church. Perhaps they saw the error of their judgement.

But, really, from a capitalist point of view, why are we bellyaching at the Catholics? Are they the only people capable of running a hospital? You don't like it, build your own hospital and put them out of business instead of telling them how to run theirs. That would be the real American way of doing things.

Message edited by author 2012-05-05 00:06:25.

NikonJeb

Nikon D850

05/05/2012 06:53:41 AM · #1193

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

But that's not the point......capitalism has nothing to do with it. The point is that between archaic dogma and abuse of power, the church was represented as being willing to kill two people for their "beliefs".

Any odds on whether the sister's reinstatement was by the offender recanting and seeing the error of his ways?

This is in this century, this time in our supposedly intelligent, informed, caring society.

Is it any wonder the catholic church ends up with abuse heaped on it for its behaviors?

NikonJeb

Nikon D850

Nikon AF-S Nikkor 28-300mm f3.5-5.6G ED VR

05/05/2012 07:03:41 AM · #1194

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

That's just it......no amount of facts, logic, reason, or common sense apply when you have someone so determined to adhere to the kind of archaic dogma the catholic church refuses to let go or even consider revising.

RayEthier

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 USM

05/05/2012 07:42:39 AM · #1195

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

But, really, from a capitalist point of view, why are we bellyaching at the Catholics? Are they the only people capable of running a hospital? You don't like it, build your own hospital and put them out of business instead of telling them how to run theirs. That would be the real American way of doing things.

...and I am certain that there are a lot of businesses out there that would love to have the tax immunity that the church enjoys, but I guess that truly is not part of the equation huh?

Usually things like hospitals and other similar services are built for the community at large and the benefit of all citizens. Suppose for a moment that every sector attached conditions to services such as roads, bridges, sewage systems... just how do you think that Catholic hospital would feel if the remainder of society said..." Ummm sorry, no streets or sewers for you folks...we don't agree with your beliefs".

I am almost certain there would be a lot of bitching about a call like that... don't you.

Ray

05/05/2012 12:20:49 PM · #1196

You are confusing many subjects Ray. There are many not for profit hospitals that enjoy tax benefits that are not Catholic. The hospitals in the US are not government entities. Sewer systems, roads, etc are very different and those have traditionally been governmental responsibilities.

RayEthier

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 USM

05/05/2012 05:32:33 PM · #1197

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

...and I assume by that the inference to be made here is that Catholic hospitals are of the not for profit type. I would also add that unless things in the USA are quite different than they are in Canada, the the terms "Non Profit" and "Not for Profit" are not at all the same.

Let's say I did confuse many subjects... what happened to the second point of the issue raised?

Ray

Judith Polakoff

Nikon D7000

Nikon AF-S DX NIKKOR 18-200mm f/3.5-5.6G ED VR II

05/05/2012 05:48:50 PM · #1198

Originally posted by Nullix:

Are you saying that a woman who has a tubal ligation because a pregnancy may be life-threatening is treating her body with disrespect?

Judith Polakoff

Nikon D7000

Nikon AF-S DX NIKKOR 18-200mm f/3.5-5.6G ED VR II

05/05/2012 06:02:01 PM · #1199

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

There are city- and county-owned hospitals in the U.S., are there not? And some state-owned hospitals as well, such as teaching hospitals that are affiliated with state universities.