| Author | Thread |
|
|
03/08/2012 08:34:51 PM · #276 |
I'm ashamed to be from Orlando in times like these.
"The family of a 17-year-old African-American boy shot to death last month in his gated Florida community by a white Neighborhood Watch captain wants to see the captain arrested, the family's lawyer said on Wednesday."
Read more here.
This is seriously messed up. And the gunman isn't in jail. "Self defense" when you have a gun and a teenager has skittles.
Yea... let's give people guns. Let's give them all guns. Then maybe the boy would have shot the guy in REAL self-defense HE'D be in jail. |
|
|
|
03/26/2012 01:37:33 PM · #277 |
Originally posted by escapetooz:
I'm ashamed to be from Orlando in times like these.
"The family of a 17-year-old African-American boy shot to death last month in his gated Florida community by a white Neighborhood Watch captain wants to see the captain arrested, the family's lawyer said on Wednesday."
Read more here.
This is seriously messed up. And the gunman isn't in jail. "Self defense" when you have a gun and a teenager has skittles.
Yea... let's give people guns. Let's give them all guns. Then maybe the boy would have shot the guy in REAL self-defense HE'D be in jail. |
Lots of press coverage over this since this post. Many claim to know the facts of the encounter and have convicted Zimmerman. Even Reverand Al has inserted himself.
Anyone know what the police saw when they arrived?
Anyone know if there was a dented Ice Tea can (as in bludgeon) with blood on it?
Anyone know who was yelling for help while being assaulted?
Anyone check or get updated on Zimmerman's heritage and family member make up before they started accusing racism?
Anyone forget "innocent until proven guilty"? One would think that minorities (especially in the south) would be a bit less quick to condemn without a hearing?
Lots of lessons here. Never underestimate being tried/convicted in the press with a partially informed public frothing at the mouth. Anyone see any historic parallels here?
The "stand your ground" law still requires one's action to meet the criteria of self defense - regardless of the media's ignorance of gun law. It simply says that one is not forced to retreat on the street and can stand your ground during an assault. It does not give anyone the right or permission to shoot unarmed persons at will and claim self defense. Whatever the police saw when they arrived on the scene, was enough evidence to show assault on Mr. Zimmerman.
Many should be ashamed by their flocking to convict based on a media frenzy and half the story.
When the dust settles maybe Zimmerman will be arressted and tried...but the question begging an answer is what did the responding officers "see" when they arrived on the scene. I supect it was much different than a 17 year old youth with a bag of skittles. Clear evidence of excessive use of force would have mandated an arrest. No arrest = no clear evidence of excessive force by Zimmerman. Why - If all Trayvon had was a bag of candy?
Lots of politics in this one.
eta: most likely this was a severe mis-understanding between 2 people resulting in a horror ending for both.
Message edited by author 2012-03-26 13:54:34. |
|
|
|
03/26/2012 01:50:31 PM · #278 |
Originally posted by Spork99:
Originally posted by Alexkc:
Originally posted by Spork99:
Stop being hysterical and look at what you've written. The mentally ill, felons etc. by law, do not have the right to bear arms. So, your post is senseless. As a country, drunk drivers cause so many deaths. We should save far more lives by outlawing cars. If you take away the right to bear arms the only ones with guns will be the criminals who, by definition don't care about breaking the law. They will have absolute power. What would you do if someone broke into your house? Don't say "Oh, I'd call 911." because the police simply take too long unless you live next to the police station. You can choose not to defend yourself if you like.
Were it not for the right to bear arms, there is no doubt in my mind, I would be dead. |
I completely disagree. In countries where it is much more difficult to have a gun there are less murders. How do you explain that? |
Less gun murders, perhaps. Countries with stricter gun laws tend to have higher overall crime rates.
If you're talking about countries like the UK, the murder rates were already low before the strict gun laws went into effect.
Here in the US, cities where there are lax gun laws are among those with the highest murder rates. |
Gun laws and crime rates are not related. There may be correlation between strict gun laws and lower murder or crime rates, but almost all research into that relationship will tell you that homogenity of society has more to do with crime rates than gun laws. Its not what I would want research to say, I want it to say that where gun laws are more permissive, there is more crime, but I know that isn't true. Places with more permissive gun laws have more visible tragedies, like that 9 yr old boy cited in this thread, or the Trayvon Martin murder (Flash's treatment of the situation is spot on, though I do agree that the guy should have been arrested formally witha charge and then released on bail if that is what a judge decided was appropriate). |
|
|
|
03/26/2012 01:51:01 PM · #279 |
I am so tired of this "race card" being played. You can't hardly breathe on someone of another race without being called a racist. There is alot more to this story than a white guy shooting a black kid. It is horrible that this kid (reguardless of color) was killed. I would be interested to find out exactly what the cops saw.
|
|
|
|
03/26/2012 02:27:58 PM · #280 |
Originally posted by Flash:
Clear evidence of excessive use of force would have mandated an arrest. No arrest = no clear evidence of excessive force by Zimmerman. Why - If all Trayvon had was a bag of candy? |
Had Zimmerman been taken in for questioning, arrested and released on his own recognisance, or frankly any other sign of serious investigation by the authorities in a capital case, this would not be national news.
The perception of lax enforcment on crimes committed by those the Sanford police see as "their own" Have included an attack on a homeless man or killing a 16 year old in 2006. Police on the scene in all 3 cases took no one into custody. In the Martin case we have witnesses who say thier testimony has been ignored and twisted to suit the outcome they seem to want to see. They drug tested the corpse, but not the shooter. Police need to investigate a crime, not just look for proof of what they believe to be their desired outcome.
Whatever turn out to be the picture painted by a full investigation, it is pretty clear that a deeper investigation was required than simply taking the word of the only man who survived a two person conflict. It is pretty clear from Martin's call to his girlfriend that he was scared by Zimmerman's chasing after him, and presumably had he been armed he could have shot and killed Zimmerman under the stand your ground statute. Frankly no matter how that hypothetical situation would have worked out, I'm guessing a dead Zimmerman and a live Martin would have resulted in the arrest pending investigation of a possible crime. And that is how it should have been. You just can't not investigate a situation like this.
PS "Sanford patrol sergeant in charge on the night of Collison's assault (the homeless guy attack), Anthony Raimondo, was also the first supervisor on the scene of Trayvon Martin's shooting death"
Message edited by author 2012-03-26 14:31:49. |
|
|
|
03/26/2012 07:24:56 PM · #281 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
Whatever turn out to be the picture painted by a full investigation, it is pretty clear that a deeper investigation was required than simply taking the word of the only man who survived a two person conflict. It is pretty clear from Martin's call to his girlfriend that he was scared by Zimmerman's chasing after him, and presumably had he been armed he could have shot and killed Zimmerman under the stand your ground statute. Frankly no matter how that hypothetical situation would have worked out, I'm guessing a dead Zimmerman and a live Martin would have resulted in the arrest pending investigation of a possible crime. And that is how it should have been. You just can't not investigate a situation like this. |
As I have posted before - your posts read as reasoned and thoughtful. So that we may clarify a couple of your points above.
1. We (at least I) do not know that the responding officers "took the word" of the only person surviving a 2 person conflict - only. We do not know the scene, what evidence was witnessed, the positions of the persons, what injuries were sustained by Zimmerman, etc.
2. Your term "chasing" is open to intrepretation - meaning - was Zimmerman following as in walking, was Zimmerman hollering for Trayvon to stop, was Zimmerman running with gun drawn, etc. Very different possibilities.
3. Of course Trayvon would have been arrested - as it is illegal (I believe) for a 17 year old to obtain a Concealed Pistol License - thus if Treyvon had been in possession of a pistol and shot someone - regardless of a "stand your ground" law, Treyvon would have been in violation of firearms laws.
4. I agree that an investigation is/was warranted. What I don't know (and I doubt many readers here know either) is what investigation evidence was available to responding officers.
To simply join in the national frenzy calling for Zimmerman's "head" without the balance of the story, depicts many nationwide as exactly the kind of person they would be up in arms over if the tables were turned another direction. I'm not sure how anyone seeing a photograph of George Zimmerman would say he is anything other than of Hispanic/latino decent. Not sure how those familiar with Neighborhood watch protocol would not understand that George was in contact with the Police. Had reported other "suspicious persons" in years past. Was acutely aware of recent breakins including his own home. And one teaching point to all persons is to be aware of things/persons/vehicles out of place. Was Treyvon an outsider in a small "gated" community dressed as a "gangsta" from Miami? I don't know. Even if he was - it does not excuse being shot. It might however, explain why a neighborhood watch captain might be interested in Treyvon in the first place. The rest reads to me like there are lots of lessons to learn from.
eta: in my day - the look was greased back hair and a Black Leather jacket. Police were always botherin us. We were good kids just out for some fun. Another example - when a person rides with MC's, even if you are not a member of that club nor wearing their patches, you are still associated with them and if a Law Enforcement stop is made, you better be prepared to undergo the same scrutiny.
Message edited by author 2012-03-26 19:40:05. |
|
|
|
03/26/2012 07:37:05 PM · #282 |
Originally posted by Flash:
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
Whatever turn out to be the picture painted by a full investigation, it is pretty clear that a deeper investigation was required than simply taking the word of the only man who survived a two person conflict. It is pretty clear from Martin's call to his girlfriend that he was scared by Zimmerman's chasing after him, and presumably had he been armed he could have shot and killed Zimmerman under the stand your ground statute. Frankly no matter how that hypothetical situation would have worked out, I'm guessing a dead Zimmerman and a live Martin would have resulted in the arrest pending investigation of a possible crime. And that is how it should have been. You just can't not investigate a situation like this. |
As I have posted before - your posts read as reasoned and thoughtful. So that we may clarify a couple of your points above.
1. We (at least I) do not know that the responding officers "took the word" of the only person surviving a 2 person conflict - only. We do not know the scene, what evidence was witnessed, the positions of the persons, what injuries were sustained by Zimmerman, etc.
2. Your term "chasing" is open to intrepretation - meaning - was Zimmerman following as in walking, was Zimmerman hollering for Trayvon to stop, was Zimmerman running with gun drawn, etc. Very different possibilities.
3. Of course Trayvon would have been arrested - as it is illegal (I believe) for a 17 year old to obtain a Concealed Pistol License - thus if Treyvon had been in possession of a pistol and shot someone - regardless of a "stand your ground" law, Treyvon would have been in violation of firearms laws.
4. I agree that an investigation is/was warranted. What I don't know (and I doubt many readers here know either) is what investigation evidence was available to responding officers.
To simply join in the national frenzy calling for Zimmerman's "head" without the balance of the story, depicts many nationwide as exactly the kind of person they would be up in arms over if the tables were turned another direction. I'm not sure how anyone seeing a photograph of George Zimmerman would say he is anything other than of Hispanic/latino decent. Not sure how those familiar with Neighborhood watch protocol would not understand that George was in contact with the Police. Had reported other "suspicious persons" in years past. Was acutely aware of recent breakins including his own home. And one teaching point to all persons is to be aware of things/persons/vehicles out of place. Was Treyvon an outsider in a small "gated" community dressed as a "gangsta" from Miami? I don't know. Even if he was - it does not excuse being shot. It might however, explain why a neighborhood watch captain might be interested in Treyvon in the first place. The rest reads to me like there are lots of lessons to learn from. |
He wasn't just shot. He was killed. And Zimmerman was told to back off by the police dispatcher. He was told not to follow Treyvon and to go home. That much was released in the news.
//abcnews.go.com/US/treyvon-martin-neighborhood-watch-shooting-911-tapes-send/story?id=15937881#.T3D9FmGPXwk
Message edited by author 2012-03-26 19:37:37. |
|
|
|
03/26/2012 07:46:48 PM · #283 |
Originally posted by Flash:
I'm not sure how anyone seeing a photograph of George Zimmerman would say he is anything other than of Hispanic/latino decent. |
And one more thing, appearances can be deceiving. My cousin (who is as white as any other white person I know) is frequently mistaken for Hispanic. To the point that some people even try to speak Spanish to him.  He's German, Slovak, and Irish. |
|
|
|
03/26/2012 07:47:11 PM · #284 |
Originally posted by Kelli:
He wasn't just shot. He was killed. And Zimmerman was told to back off by the police dispatcher. He was told not to follow Treyvon and to go home. That much was released in the news. |
And I stated there were several lessons here. One is as an armed member of society, escalating a conflict is never wise. One reason I struggle with the news reports. It simply defies logic for responding officers who are aware of the incident unfolding and the caution from dispatch to Zimmerman, that they so easily concluded self defense. There is too much excluded from the reports at this point.
Maybe Zimmerman is exactly as he is being portrayed - but I will wait for the rest of the story. |
|
|
|
03/26/2012 07:53:14 PM · #285 |
From this news report. Do you know which person was yelling for help? Could it have been Zimmerman?
Do you have a position regaring the Black Panthers having a $10,000 bounty out for Zimmerman? This is the result of overzealous media frenzy without the facts of the case. The prosecutor has the Police evidence and as of yet hasn't brought charges. Why?
Message edited by author 2012-03-26 19:58:40. |
|
|
|
03/26/2012 07:56:16 PM · #286 |
Originally posted by Flash:
Originally posted by Kelli:
He wasn't just shot. He was killed. And Zimmerman was told to back off by the police dispatcher. He was told not to follow Treyvon and to go home. That much was released in the news. |
And I stated there were several lessons here. One is as an armed member of society, escalating a conflict is never wise. One reason I struggle with the news reports. It simply defies logic for responding officers who are aware of the incident unfolding and the caution from dispatch to Zimmerman, that they so easily concluded self defense. There is too much excluded from the reports at this point.
Maybe Zimmerman is exactly as he is being portrayed - but I will wait for the rest of the story. |
Wait for what? Listen to his 911 call. we make up our minds about people we shouldn't all day long from the news, here its rather clear. you can figure it out. The right to bear arms? In what time or place would it ever be OK for this guy to be allowed to carry a gun? Tough to defend. |
|
|
|
03/26/2012 07:56:17 PM · #287 |
911: Do not follow him. Wait for officers.
Zimmerman: *follow, scuffle, bang!*
Police: Clear case of self defense.
I agree that it doesn't make any sense and also agree that we are missing big chunks of the facts from this story. At a minimum, the local police are guilty of the worst possible handling of the situation. At this point, it is a senseless tragedy. Let's hope it does not escalate into a series of more senseless tragedies. |
|
|
|
03/26/2012 07:56:27 PM · #288 |
Originally posted by Flash:
From this news report. Do you know which person was yelling for help? Could it have been Zimmerman? |
I'm pretty sure it will come out who was yelling for help in the end. A witness claimed it was the kid, but was "corrected" by an officer. I know if someone was pointing a gun at me I'd be yelling for help. |
|
|
|
03/26/2012 07:56:53 PM · #289 |
dup post
Message edited by author 2012-03-26 19:57:14. |
|
|
|
03/26/2012 11:16:23 PM · #290 |
Seconds, a second or part of a second to make a decision and act. Months and years to decide if the guy made the right decision. How fair is that?
Please forgive me, but being from a country with crime written all over it and utmost protection of the criminal, I am very strong on the right to self defense. |
|
|
|
03/26/2012 11:22:39 PM · #291 |
Just wondering, playing the race card, would you have had the same outrage if the guy was 1) shot by an African American, 2) the guy shot was a whitey and 3) if the guy turned out to be a hardened criminal. How could the defender know? You give him the chance, you are dead. Experience. We were not there, we get opinions and emotions. I see little facts.
Sorry for the family, sorry for the shooter. Who am I to judge. |
|
|
|
03/26/2012 11:25:56 PM · #292 |
Originally posted by docpjv:
Seconds, a second or part of a second to make a decision and act. Months and years to decide if the guy made the right decision. How fair is that?
Please forgive me, but being from a country with crime written all over it and utmost protection of the criminal, I am very strong on the right to self defense. |
So if you're coming HOME from the store with some candy and some guy starts following/confronting you, don't you then have a right to stand your ground and defend yourself?
Zimmerman initiated the confrontation against police instructions (failure to obey a police officer is usually grounds for arrest all by itself) -- Martin should have been the one with the right to "stand his ground" against an apparent assault by an armed assailant. |
|
|
|
03/27/2012 01:24:45 AM · #293 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by docpjv:
Seconds, a second or part of a second to make a decision and act. Months and years to decide if the guy made the right decision. How fair is that?
Please forgive me, but being from a country with crime written all over it and utmost protection of the criminal, I am very strong on the right to self defense. |
So if you're coming HOME from the store with some candy and some guy starts following/confronting you, don't you then have a right to stand your ground and defend yourself?
Zimmerman initiated the confrontation against police instructions (failure to obey a police officer is usually grounds for arrest all by itself) -- Martin should have been the one with the right to "stand his ground" against an apparent assault by an armed assailant. |
Again; did Zimmarman hear the police officer in his own time of stress. Surely he was under stress? How do we know he initiated the altercation? I agree the case should be investigated for whatever truth in retrospect will/may come out, but I put the blame on that on the police. I will not hang Zimmarman out to dry based on what we know, not what we think/assume/gather/feel. Audi Alterum Partem, hear the other side.
Proof of thinking error; HOME? No, his father's home. He did not live there?
Message edited by author 2012-03-27 01:27:08. |
|
|
|
03/27/2012 02:43:13 AM · #294 |
Originally posted by docpjv:
did Zimmarman hear the police officer in his own time of stress. Surely he was under stress? How do we know he initiated the altercation? |
Had Zimmerman been in his home, this would not be a story. I'm sure he was stressed, he sure sounded that way in his phone calls. his stress was based on a series of home break ins in the neighborhood, and his identification of a young black man wearing a hoodie as being a suspect that should be held for the police. We know that because that is what he was recorded saying to the police.
If you are attacked, your stress is a mitigating factor in whatever subsequent actions you take. I you hurt your attacker, or even bystanders, your capacity was diminished by outside factors. If on the other hand you choose to take PCP and are out of your mind on fear, your subsequent actions are your responsibility because you put yourself in that state; the fact that you can't think straight is no excuse.
Mr. Zimmerman was under stress of his own choosing. He decided to be the neighborhood watch captain. He decided to follow a fellow he found suspicious. he decided to ignore police advice to break off that pursuit. He decided to carry a gun in that pursuit. If you are armed there is a much higher chance you will believe that people you confront are armed. Mr. Zimmerman created a set of circumstances that vastly increased the chances of a tragedy. His stress is no mitigating factor in his actions.
As far as the initiation of the altercation, we don't know; but we do know that he was chasing down a kid on the way back from buying candy, and he was sure the kid was a criminal. The kid was aware he has being chased down. How the two came to blows or if they ever did, we don't know. But we do know that if Mr Zimmerman had listened to the police dispatcher, there would never have been an altercation.
PS, no he did not live there, he lived in Miami. He, his father and a cousin were visiting a woman who was his father's fiancee who did live in the neighborhood. He had walked down to the store to get himself an iced tea and some candy for his cousin. He had as much right to be walking that street as any other person in the area.
Message edited by author 2012-03-27 03:15:09. |
|
|
|
03/27/2012 03:37:17 AM · #295 |
Zimmerman did the right thing by becoming involved in making his 'hood a saver place.
He did not, most probably, DECIDE not to follow instructions, he might have been stressed out... all speculation on both sides.
He did not walk down the street, he was in a private home complex where public most probably can not walk as they wish.
How did Zimmerman know the kid had gone for whatever reason, candy? What does that have to do with the real issue; the kid walking in a fenced neighborhood that he was foreign to/ did not belong to, he was followed by a caring citizen, an altercation developed, a man claims self defense?
Not justifying any shooting, I hate guns, but looking cold at the fact that Zimmerman might not have done anything NOT in any event allowed by law. |
|
|
|
03/27/2012 03:49:21 AM · #296 |
A gated community ought not be confused with a hunting preserve. Had Mr Martin been stalking Mr. Zimmerman, Mr. Zimmerman would have legally been able to shoot and kill his pursuer. As it worked out. Mr Zimmerman stalked Mr. Martin, and then legally shot and killed him. The joy of the stand your ground law is that it allows any one to kill anyone, as long as they feel justified in killing them. If they feel justified, they are justified. State of mind is a lousy reason to be able to go out hunting.
Can you expand on the phrase "the kid walking in a fenced neighborhood that he was foreign to/ did not belong to"? since that seems to justify his being killed. Do the laws of the United Sates not apply if there is a home owners association? CC&Rs can tell you what colors to paint your house, not what colors your guests can be.
Message edited by author 2012-03-27 04:56:36. |
|
|
|
03/27/2012 06:59:07 AM · #297 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
The joy of the stand your ground law is that it allows any one to kill anyone, as long as they feel justified in killing them. If they feel justified, they are justified. State of mind is a lousy reason to be able to go out hunting. |
This reads to me as a very biased way to word this.
1. There is no "joy" in the stand your ground law.
2. The law does not authorize killing as long as one "feels like it".
3. Feeling justified has no bearing. There are specific conditions that must be met. The use of deadly force requires one to be under the threat of death or "grave" (= crippling) injury. Disparity of force may enter into the equation (as in a larger/younger assailant against an older/smaller/weaker victim - read 18 yo gansta vs your 80 yo grandmother). Escalation of force is an element as well - meaning who escalated the confrontation - typically decided by witnesses who historically are very inaccurate do to many factors including audio exclusion, tunnel vision, angle of view and vantage point, plus physio-psycological actions like remembering things out of sequence, or even seeing things that were not there.
A claim of self defense must still meet the laws requirements. The only thing that "Stand your ground" laws allow, is encapsulating you with the "Castle Doctrine" where ever you are. It expands what many states allow in one's home, to be law in your vehicle, or yard, or store parking lot, etc. One STILL must meet the lawful use of force statutes.
eta: I have no idea whether Zimmerman met these "lawful use of force" statutes, but apparently the responding officers and as of yet the City Prosecutor feel he did.
todays CNN article
Message edited by author 2012-03-27 07:25:05. |
|
|
|
03/27/2012 01:47:53 PM · #298 |
Yes, I was being snarky, There is no joy here. I fall into sarcasm when I get upset. But in all honesty I believe both of the principal in this sad drama would be covered by the stand your ground law. Each saw the other as a threat. Much of the law goes to perception of threat, which is unusual; usually the "reasonable person" minimum is the basis of allowable legal action, in this statute it is reduced to the personal. Most self defense laws require retreat in the face of threat, some use the "castle doctrine" where you are not required to give ground in your own home. The stand your ground law takes the castle doctrine and pushes it out into the public square.
As the former chief of the Miami Police Department put it "Trying to control shootings by members of a well-trained and disciplined police department is a daunting enough task. Laws like “stand your ground” give citizens unfettered power and discretion with no accountability. It is a recipe for disaster."
When "lawful use of force" statutes are so loose that both sides are allowed to kill each other, either the law, or the police perception of that law, is too lax. The fact that Mr. Zimmerman is out there, still armed with the gun he killed Mr. Martin with scares me. If he was scared and stressed before, he must be terrified where ever he is now. I hope he doesn't feel the need to kill again. |
|
|
|
03/27/2012 08:29:02 PM · #299 |
This is NOT even remotely what is being reported. This looks like something Jessie and Al would like to see.
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
911: Do not follow him. Wait for officers.
Zimmerman: *follow, scuffle, bang!*
Police: Clear case of self defense.
I agree that it doesn't make any sense and also agree that we are missing big chunks of the facts from this story. At a minimum, the local police are guilty of the worst possible handling of the situation. At this point, it is a senseless tragedy. Let's hope it does not escalate into a series of more senseless tragedies. |
|
|
|
|
03/27/2012 08:34:47 PM · #300 |
Originally posted by kenskid:
This is NOT even remotely what is being reported. This looks like something Jessie and Al would like to see.
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
911: Do not follow him. Wait for officers.
Zimmerman: *follow, scuffle, bang!*
Police: Clear case of self defense.
I agree that it doesn't make any sense and also agree that we are missing big chunks of the facts from this story. At a minimum, the local police are guilty of the worst possible handling of the situation. At this point, it is a senseless tragedy. Let's hope it does not escalate into a series of more senseless tragedies. |
|
Paraphrasing what I heard reported a few days ago. Since then, I've heard lots more details, but much of it still confusing, conflicting and contradictory.
As mentioned, my main beef at the moment is the lack of coherent facts coming out. I'd like to see a timeline of witness reports and evidence. |
|
