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03/15/2012 10:21:17 AM · #901 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
The man has as much responsibility for the pregnancy as the woman, yet the aftermath won't support it.
Honestly, so much of this goes back to the fact that considering how much of the consequences of sexual relations is borne by women, men are really presumptuous to think they should have any say in how women deal with these consequences that women have to for the rest of their lives. |
If a woman is to be forced to carry the pregnancy to term, maybe the father should be castrated so it doesn't happen again. |
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03/15/2012 11:38:31 AM · #902 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
The woman is fully in control of whether she gets pregnant (obviously with a few tragic, horrid exceptions). |
My sister runs a battered women's shelter, and you might be surprised at how many women in stable married relationships have no voice over when "marital relations" occur. Of course controlling the possible resulting pregnancy is greatly enhanced if said woman has access to birth control, which does the bring the argument back to where it began.
If her boss makes the moral decision that she should not be on the pill, but she doesn't earn enough to buy it outside her plan, and her husband makes the decision that sex is his right, and the legislature decides that abortion is wrong, she will be cast among the junkies and the whores, a reprobate, outcast from decent society, when she makes the last choice available to her.
It is estimated by the WHO that 68,000 women die each year as a result of the 20,000,000 abortions in countries where the practice is illegal.
Your comparison to heroin is an apt one. Sometimes a hard line in opposition to drugs create more problems than they solve. Our current drug policy has been great for the folks who build prisons and the narco-traffickers. Making birth control and abortion more difficult to obtain will create more problems while being unlikely to solve anything. |
I don't doubt you Brennan. I am not against birth control. I do not think it's morally wrong. I have weighed in on protecting religious freedom for sects like the Catholics, but that is about paying for it and I know that birth control is readily and cheaply available. Still, hear me loud and clear. Birth control is helpful in my book.
In such a dysfunctional marriage where the woman has no choice over intercourse, I'm not sure she will have much of a choice about the abortion either. But these issues, again, must be kept in vision with the rights of the baby. The woman does/did have control over many, many things. She bears some responsibility for her position (I can agree often it is not all responsibility). The baby bears no responsibility for their position. This should weigh some into the decision.
Make sure people have read my previous post saying that I wasn't necessarily for ALL abortions being illegal. I don't want my position polarized and mischaracterized.
I certainly don't want to turn the discussion into a debate about legalizing drugs, especially hard stuff like heroin...
Message edited by author 2012-03-15 11:44:12. |
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03/15/2012 05:36:46 PM · #903 |
So Doc, you just going to ignore that link I posted about making drugs legal (by removal of the demonization and proper help for those addicted, instead of jail) actually makes the situation better?
Making things illegal isn't some cure-all. The issue comes when people over-simplistically think "oh you want it to be legal, why don't we just make murder and drugs legal too!!" As if that would start this free-for all of murder and drug abuse. Does the law actually STOP people from murdering or taking drugs, or is it their own decisions? I think in most cases, we know the answer to that.
Making something illegal doesn't prevent it, it only makes is so you can punish someone after the fact. So the assertion that making it legal condones it, doesn't hold weight. The effect of people NOT doing something like abusing drugs because of a law is minimal at best.
So by that stream of thought, if you want to make abortion illegal, do women seeking abortion deserve to be punished? Do people with a drug problem deserve to be punished? We don't send people addicted to prescribed medication to jail. We don't send people addicted to sex to jail (unless they've done something harmful because of it). Overeaters? Nope, they don't get sent to jail either. Gambling addicts? Nope. People with depression or bipolar disorder? Nope.
What's with the demonizing of illegal drug users? Are they not people deserving of help just like any of the other ones I mentioned above? We are in a sick society. The cure is addressing the roots, not making everything illegal and throwing people in jail. If you were in the slums and depressed enough to abuse drugs before jail, how are you after when you really have nothing going for you, your life has been taken away, and you have and even harder time getting a job because you are labeled an ex-con the rest of your days?
Message edited by author 2012-03-15 17:38:41. |
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03/15/2012 05:50:23 PM · #904 |
You all do realize that heroin ("The sedative for coughs") is not some street drug cooked up in a bathtub, but a (former) trademark of Bayer Pharmaceutical, a somewhat well-known "mainstream" multinational corporation ...  
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03/15/2012 05:51:41 PM · #905 |
| Monica, you are heaping a whole bunch of stuff on me that I'm not saying. Can't respond now, but I just wanted to say you think you know where I'm coming from but you don't. |
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03/15/2012 06:07:49 PM · #906 |
Originally posted by escapetooz:
So Doc, you just going to ignore that link I posted about making drugs legal (by removal of the demonization and proper help for those addicted, instead of jail) actually makes the situation better? |
New thread? No need to get off topic. |
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03/15/2012 06:13:23 PM · #907 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
... I am not against birth control. I do not think it's morally wrong. I have weighed in on protecting religious freedom for sects like the Catholics, but that is about paying for it and I know that birth control is readily and cheaply available... |
If indeed you do not feel it to be morally wrong, then how would you feel about the following comment I left in a previous submission made in response to a comment by  Bear_Music:
"I fully agree with you my friend with the issue of morality and would hasten to point out that morality is not the exclusive domain of churches (whatever domination they might be)
Paying for a pill is strictly a financial issue... the matter of morality rests exclusively with the person(s) taking the pill... and therein lies the difference between what the good Doc is advocating and my personal point of view"
The financial issue rests solely with the service provider and that which falls within the realm of morality rests solely between the user and her God.
Your views in this regard would be greatly appreciated.
Ray
Message edited by author 2012-03-15 18:14:51. |
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03/15/2012 06:13:35 PM · #908 |
Originally posted by Nullix:
Originally posted by escapetooz:
So Doc, you just going to ignore that link I posted about making drugs legal (by removal of the demonization and proper help for those addicted, instead of jail) actually makes the situation better? |
New thread? No need to get off topic. |
Abortion was off-topic ... |
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03/15/2012 06:34:53 PM · #909 |
... and as a young police officer I drank coke... till someone told me it apparently contained some controlled substance.
...so I switched to beer. :O)
Ray |
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03/15/2012 06:37:08 PM · #910 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
... I am not against birth control. I do not think it's morally wrong. I have weighed in on protecting religious freedom for sects like the Catholics, but that is about paying for it and I know that birth control is readily and cheaply available... |
If indeed you do not feel it to be morally wrong, then how would you feel about the following comment I left in a previous submission made in response to a comment by Bear_Music:
"I fully agree with you my friend with the issue of morality and would hasten to point out that morality is not the exclusive domain of churches (whatever domination they might be)
Paying for a pill is strictly a financial issue... the matter of morality rests exclusively with the person(s) taking the pill... and therein lies the difference between what the good Doc is advocating and my personal point of view"
The financial issue rests solely with the service provider and that which falls within the realm of morality rests solely between the user and her God.
Your views in this regard would be greatly appreciated.
Ray |
I agree with you, but also understand the person who honestly does not want to enable the activity because of moral reservations. So I am happy to allow for the protection of religious liberty while also advocating for readily accesible birth control. This particular issue seems like a small one to me, but I'll tell you some strange things are afoot in Europe. They are further down the road of anti-religious fervor and I don't want to get there. So I can dig my heels in here to prevent getting there. It's the NRA way of thinking. (hey, we all hate the NRA, but they are damn effective. You gotta give them that.)
Haven't forgotten about you Monica.
Message edited by author 2012-03-15 18:37:46. |
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03/15/2012 06:41:24 PM · #911 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
They are further down the road of anti-religious fervor and I don't want to get there. So I can dig my heels in here to prevent getting there. |
Originally posted by escapetooz:
The trouble comes, when you are trying to rig MY game. And this is where the some people are fabulously brilliant. Because if you try to STOP them from rigging your game, that somehow means you are rigging theirs. It's like if I block a punch, I'm somehow attacking. Makes no sense. |
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03/15/2012 07:23:25 PM · #912 |
Originally posted by escapetooz:
So Doc, you just going to ignore that link I posted about making drugs legal (by removal of the demonization and proper help for those addicted, instead of jail) actually makes the situation better?
Making things illegal isn't some cure-all. The issue comes when people over-simplistically think "oh you want it to be legal, why don't we just make murder and drugs legal too!!" As if that would start this free-for all of murder and drug abuse. Does the law actually STOP people from murdering or taking drugs, or is it their own decisions? I think in most cases, we know the answer to that.
Making something illegal doesn't prevent it, it only makes is so you can punish someone after the fact. So the assertion that making it legal condones it, doesn't hold weight. The effect of people NOT doing something like abusing drugs because of a law is minimal at best.
So by that stream of thought, if you want to make abortion illegal, do women seeking abortion deserve to be punished? Do people with a drug problem deserve to be punished? We don't send people addicted to prescribed medication to jail. We don't send people addicted to sex to jail (unless they've done something harmful because of it). Overeaters? Nope, they don't get sent to jail either. Gambling addicts? Nope. People with depression or bipolar disorder? Nope.
What's with the demonizing of illegal drug users? Are they not people deserving of help just like any of the other ones I mentioned above? We are in a sick society. The cure is addressing the roots, not making everything illegal and throwing people in jail. If you were in the slums and depressed enough to abuse drugs before jail, how are you after when you really have nothing going for you, your life has been taken away, and you have and even harder time getting a job because you are labeled an ex-con the rest of your days? |
Knowing what I know about the attitudes about drugs on DPC it was a poor example on my part and just muddied the waters. You can forget about it. Maybe there is a case for legalized drugs. Maybe there isn't. The point we can both agree on is that some things should be illegal (what those things are we can disagree on). To me, this is already getting away from the more important discussion. The question of whether abortion is right/wrong is fundamental. The legal/illegal/punishment issues are formed after. If we can't even agree whether it is right or wrong, why even discuss the other? It's putting the cart before the horse. If you are viewing my posts as a crusade to make abortion illegal, you are not reading me correctly. That may possibly be an outcome of my thoughts, but not a necessary one and not one I am as concerned about.
Knowing that, the rest of your post becomes unimportant. I disagree that making something illegal doesn't limit how often it happens, but it doesn't matter. The argument is tangential.
The question at hand is whether an abortion is more similar to throwing a litter of kittens into a river or leaving a newborn exposed in a field to die. If it's closer to the former, the woman's right to bodily autonomy supercedes and abortion is an acceptable choice. If it's closer to the latter, then the woman's right to bodily autonomy is potentially superceded and abortion is not an acceptable choice.
Message edited by author 2012-03-15 19:24:08. |
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03/15/2012 07:26:34 PM · #913 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
The danger of illegal abortions argument, to me, carries very little weight. We may as well legalize heroin, diet pills, and a host of other things.
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I was addressing this point. We are debating birth control and things keep coming around to abortion. I'm making the point that preventative efforts and demystification, de-demonization helps these sort of things (abortion, drug abuse, etc).
I'm not implying you think abortion should be punished. I'm saying why would we make it illegal? What would be the result or benefit? |
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03/15/2012 07:39:34 PM · #914 |
Originally posted by escapetooz:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
The danger of illegal abortions argument, to me, carries very little weight. We may as well legalize heroin, diet pills, and a host of other things.
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I was addressing this point. We are debating birth control and things keep coming around to abortion. I'm making the point that preventative efforts and demystification, de-demonization helps these sort of things (abortion, drug abuse, etc).
I'm not implying you think abortion should be punished. I'm saying why would we make it illegal? What would be the result or benefit? |
We would make it illegal because we, as a society, would say, "This activity is not acceptable to us. We value the rights of the unborn person too much." If we don't think that as a society, then I don't think we should make it illegal. |
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03/15/2012 07:43:31 PM · #915 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by escapetooz:
So Doc, you just going to ignore that link I posted about making drugs legal (by removal of the demonization and proper help for those addicted, instead of jail) actually makes the situation better?
Making things illegal isn't some cure-all. The issue comes when people over-simplistically think "oh you want it to be legal, why don't we just make murder and drugs legal too!!" As if that would start this free-for all of murder and drug abuse. Does the law actually STOP people from murdering or taking drugs, or is it their own decisions? I think in most cases, we know the answer to that.
Making something illegal doesn't prevent it, it only makes is so you can punish someone after the fact. So the assertion that making it legal condones it, doesn't hold weight. The effect of people NOT doing something like abusing drugs because of a law is minimal at best.
So by that stream of thought, if you want to make abortion illegal, do women seeking abortion deserve to be punished? Do people with a drug problem deserve to be punished? We don't send people addicted to prescribed medication to jail. We don't send people addicted to sex to jail (unless they've done something harmful because of it). Overeaters? Nope, they don't get sent to jail either. Gambling addicts? Nope. People with depression or bipolar disorder? Nope.
What's with the demonizing of illegal drug users? Are they not people deserving of help just like any of the other ones I mentioned above? We are in a sick society. The cure is addressing the roots, not making everything illegal and throwing people in jail. If you were in the slums and depressed enough to abuse drugs before jail, how are you after when you really have nothing going for you, your life has been taken away, and you have and even harder time getting a job because you are labeled an ex-con the rest of your days? |
Knowing what I know about the attitudes about drugs on DPC it was a poor example on my part and just muddied the waters. You can forget about it. Maybe there is a case for legalized drugs. Maybe there isn't. The point we can both agree on is that some things should be illegal (what those things are we can disagree on). To me, this is already getting away from the more important discussion. The question of whether abortion is right/wrong is fundamental. The legal/illegal/punishment issues are formed after. If we can't even agree whether it is right or wrong, why even discuss the other? It's putting the cart before the horse. If you are viewing my posts as a crusade to make abortion illegal, you are not reading me correctly. That may possibly be an outcome of my thoughts, but not a necessary one and not one I am as concerned about.
Knowing that, the rest of your post becomes unimportant. I disagree that making something illegal doesn't limit how often it happens, but it doesn't matter. The argument is tangential.
The question at hand is whether an abortion is more similar to throwing a litter of kittens into a river or leaving a newborn exposed in a field to die. If it's closer to the former, the woman's right to bodily autonomy supercedes and abortion is an acceptable choice. If it's closer to the latter, then the woman's right to bodily autonomy is potentially superceded and abortion is not an acceptable choice. |
These are ridiculous comparisons. It's not closer to either. |
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03/15/2012 07:45:50 PM · #916 |
Originally posted by Kelli:
These are ridiculous comparisons. It's not closer to either. |
Tell me why. I'm interested. I can see many ways in which they are similar and different. |
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03/15/2012 07:53:33 PM · #917 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by Kelli:
These are ridiculous comparisons. It's not closer to either. |
Tell me why. I'm interested. I can see many ways in which they are similar and different. |
For one thing, they've both already been born. That's a big difference. They are breathing on their own outside of the mothers body. Early abortion involves cells at the earliest. Look, I'm not an advocate for late term abortion. I'd prefer it happened with chemicals when possible (the morning after pill, no different than a spontaneous abortion). But sometimes that's not possible. The point is you're trying to make this about something it's not. And what it's not is anybody's business other the person dealing with it. |
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03/15/2012 08:33:02 PM · #918 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by escapetooz:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
The danger of illegal abortions argument, to me, carries very little weight. We may as well legalize heroin, diet pills, and a host of other things.
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I was addressing this point. We are debating birth control and things keep coming around to abortion. I'm making the point that preventative efforts and demystification, de-demonization helps these sort of things (abortion, drug abuse, etc).
I'm not implying you think abortion should be punished. I'm saying why would we make it illegal? What would be the result or benefit? |
We would make it illegal because we, as a society, would say, "This activity is not acceptable to us. We value the rights of the unborn person too much." If we don't think that as a society, then I don't think we should make it illegal. |
That's nice in theory but would would it actually DO to stop abortions or help people that need them? What would happen to the women (and doctors) that do that thing we as a society say is "not acceptable"?
Problem-based reasoning goes around in circles. We need solutions. And one solution, to bring it back around (again) is to make contraception widely available and covered by insurance so women do not have to make those tough choices later down the line if something goes wrong. We as a society have said it's NOT acceptable for employers to choose if we get birth control. And yet some people just aren't listening...
Your reasoning keeps being that it's cheap enough, Doc. So let's take that out of the equation. If it wasn't, would your opinion change? It seems to be coming from a privileged perspective.
For some people $10-$50 a month IS a lot of money. And Nullix said something really offensive like maybe they have bigger problems than sex. But the reality is, the people that CAN'T afford the pills, are the ones that need them the most. Can't afford a pill, probably can't afford a baby.
Message edited by author 2012-03-15 20:37:36. |
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03/15/2012 08:45:51 PM · #919 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
... and as a young police officer I drank coke... till someone told me it apparently contained some controlled substance.
...so I switched to beer. :O)
Ray |
You remind me of one of my favorite bumper stickers: God Invented Pot,
Man Invented Beer;
In Whom Do YOU Trust? Coca-Cola hasn't contained cocaine for some number of decades, though I believe it (Cocaine HCl, U.S.P.) is still available as a pharmaceutical (for anesthesia during certain nasal and eye surgeries) ...
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03/15/2012 09:03:24 PM · #920 |
Originally posted by Kelli:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by Kelli:
These are ridiculous comparisons. It's not closer to either. |
Tell me why. I'm interested. I can see many ways in which they are similar and different. |
For one thing, they've both already been born. That's a big difference. They are breathing on their own outside of the mothers body. Early abortion involves cells at the earliest. Look, I'm not an advocate for late term abortion. I'd prefer it happened with chemicals when possible (the morning after pill, no different than a spontaneous abortion). But sometimes that's not possible. The point is you're trying to make this about something it's not. And what it's not is anybody's business other the person dealing with it. |
That last line is a bumper sticker not an argument. And you contradict yourself. You aren't an advocate for late term abortions, but your distinction is that the kitten and baby have been born. Why aren't you ok with late term abortion? The baby has not been born at that point, so what is the added distinction? That might be revealing to your position.
Message edited by author 2012-03-15 21:04:02. |
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03/15/2012 09:07:01 PM · #921 |
Originally posted by escapetooz:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by escapetooz:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
The danger of illegal abortions argument, to me, carries very little weight. We may as well legalize heroin, diet pills, and a host of other things.
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I was addressing this point. We are debating birth control and things keep coming around to abortion. I'm making the point that preventative efforts and demystification, de-demonization helps these sort of things (abortion, drug abuse, etc).
I'm not implying you think abortion should be punished. I'm saying why would we make it illegal? What would be the result or benefit? |
We would make it illegal because we, as a society, would say, "This activity is not acceptable to us. We value the rights of the unborn person too much." If we don't think that as a society, then I don't think we should make it illegal. |
That's nice in theory but would would it actually DO to stop abortions or help people that need them? What would happen to the women (and doctors) that do that thing we as a society say is "not acceptable"?
Problem-based reasoning goes around in circles. We need solutions. And one solution, to bring it back around (again) is to make contraception widely available and covered by insurance so women do not have to make those tough choices later down the line if something goes wrong. We as a society have said it's NOT acceptable for employers to choose if we get birth control. And yet some people just aren't listening...
Your reasoning keeps being that it's cheap enough, Doc. So let's take that out of the equation. If it wasn't, would your opinion change? It seems to be coming from a privileged perspective.
For some people $10-$50 a month IS a lot of money. And Nullix said something really offensive like maybe they have bigger problems than sex. But the reality is, the people that CAN'T afford the pills, are the ones that need them the most. Can't afford a pill, probably can't afford a baby. |
In fact, my opinion would change. If it were out of grasp for people without insurance coverage then I think the balance shifts. It is not the case though and $10/month is NOT a lot of money these days no matter who you are. $50? Maybe. At a full time minimum-wage job, $10/month represents 0.7% of you salary.
Message edited by author 2012-03-15 21:11:45. |
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03/15/2012 09:16:33 PM · #922 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
In fact, my opinion would change. If it were out of grasp for people without insurance coverage then I think the balance shifts. It is not the case though and $10/month is NOT a lot of money these days no matter who you are. $50? Maybe. At a full time minimum-wage job, $10/month represents 0.7% of you salary. |
Have you ever been poor Doc?
Also... that doesn't make sense anyway. So you are for the rights of the religious bosses, unless it's more money, then you side with the employees? What about principle?
Message edited by author 2012-03-15 21:20:08. |
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03/15/2012 09:19:12 PM · #923 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
That last line is a bumper sticker not an argument. And you contradict yourself. You aren't an advocate for late term abortions, but your distinction is that the kitten and baby have been born. Why aren't you ok with late term abortion? The baby has not been born at that point, so what is the added distinction? That might be revealing to your position. |
A friend of mine's position is that it's a baby when it CAN survive outside of the womb, not that it actually IS outside of the womb. So that would answer the riddle of being against late-term abortions while still being pro-choice.
I tend think this way as well, though personally I don't think I could get any sort of abortion (barring extreme circumstance), I wouldn't begrudge a woman that would. |
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03/15/2012 10:08:46 PM · #924 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
We would make it illegal because we, as a society, would say, "This activity is not acceptable to us. We value the rights of the unborn person too much." If we don't think that as a society, then I don't think we should make it illegal. |
Elective abortion is not illegal up to viability, so haven't we already decided this question? |
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03/15/2012 10:36:51 PM · #925 |
Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:
Elective abortion is not illegal up to viability, so haven't we already decided this question? |
Fortunately for conservatives, ignorance of the Constitution provides ample opportunity to pretend otherwise until a ruling favors your side (even if it never will). |
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