Birth control rant - DPChallenge Forums

03/09/2012 12:40:32 PM · #776

Another report on this issue from Rachel Maddow. The second half (in her discussion with Frank Rich) deals with some of the non-abortion/contraception-related legislation.

03/09/2012 01:19:21 PM · #777

Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:

Yes, what about all the non-abortion pieces of legislation? I'm afraid it doesn't matter how much information we provide here, for those who choose to remain ignorant and blind.

Really? Ignorant and blind? To what? My beef is with the semantics of declaring it a "war on women". To me, that means the legislation is being passed to combat...women. Why am I supporting this bill? Because you are a WOMAN! and you need to be stopped. It just strikes me as inflammatory spin. Could it be a "war on abortion"? By all means. That war has been waged since 1973. The contraception issue is also complicated by the religious issue that started this whole thread. Is anybody actually trying to ban birth control (if that's the case then I do plead ignorance but would not agree with such an idea)?

I mean, look at Monica's list she linked.

7) And at the federal level, Republicans want to cut that same program, Head Start, by $1 billion. That means over 200,000 kids could lose their spots in preschool.

I'm a big fan of Head Start and think the Republicans are misguided in their efforts to cut it, but how is this a "war on WOMEN"? The stretch is enormous. I could just as easily call it a "war on Americans" or "war on Children" or "war on education" or "war on breakfast" (since Head Start often has reduced or free breakfast). Americans, children, education and breakfasts are affected by the move, but it's not the raison d'etre for the bill. I'm sure if the Republicans were to give it a title it would be a "war on government spending". Do you see my point?

Message edited by author 2012-03-09 13:27:24.

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

03/09/2012 01:38:11 PM · #778

As a registered pacifist I'm getting darned tired of the overuse of the word "war," especially as applied to non-material concepts and non-human entities or organizations.

How about "there continues to be a concerted and persistent effort on the part of a large number of political/social "conservatives" and some religious organizations to further restrict and roll back the rights and opportunities for women to control their own destinies on a fully equal basis with men."?

I put "conservatives" in quotes because it's my understanding that a "true conservative" believes in minimizing the government's interference with individual rights -- clearly under current law any attempt to restrict access to or erect legal impediments to obtaining otherwise legal medical products and procedures would seem quite anti-conservative to me ... there's a word for those who believe the state has a right to physically control its citizens' bodies, but I don't want to end the thread ...

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

03/09/2012 01:44:02 PM · #779

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

7) And at the federal level, Republicans want to cut that same program, Head Start, by $1 billion. That means over 200,000 kids could lose their spots in preschool.

I'm a big fan of Head Start and think the Republicans are misguided in their efforts to cut it, but how is this a "war on WOMEN"? The stretch is enormous.

I find it a most minor stretch, considering that the vast majority of single parents are women, I'm pretty sure the majority of those receiving "Food Stamps" and WIC and other such benefits are women with children.

I would think it obvious that anything which cuts programs like preschool, daycare, food assistance, etc., etc., etc., will affect women disproportionately compared to men, and will only serve to make them more dependent on such assistance in the future by making it impossible to find/retain employment which pays more than poverty-level wages.

03/09/2012 01:55:06 PM · #780

Oh I don't deny those things Paul. I think it would disproportionately affect women (the Head Start cut). But it's not being done TO affect women. I guess we can both just agree that we're tired of the verbage "war on..." You don't like it because it cheapens the term "war" (I think that's what you said) and I don't like it because it indicates a coordination, direction and purpose that doesn't exist.

Anyway, many of these things we're talking about I wouldn't agree with so please don't paint me (not talking to Paul here in specific) as somehow signing onto all of these things just because I agree with some of these things.

Message edited by author 2012-03-09 13:55:30.

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

03/09/2012 02:09:29 PM · #781

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Oh I don't deny those things Paul. I think it would disproportionately affect women (the Head Start cut). But it's not being done TO affect women.

There we disagree -- I believe it quite plausible that this is a deliberate attempt to continue to keep women at an economic and political disadvantage.

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

03/09/2012 02:21:17 PM · #782

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Oh I don't deny those things Paul. I think it would disproportionately affect women (the Head Start cut). But it's not being done TO affect women.

There we disagree -- I believe it quite plausible that this is a deliberate attempt to continue to keep women at an economic and political disadvantage.

Really? It just strikes me as such an odd strategy or ideology. Everything these days seems to be about reelection and you'd think a strategy that ostracizes 50% of the population would be a guaranteed loser. Combine this with the fact that many of these proposals have support from conservative women it just doesn't make sense to me at least.

Nullix

Canon EOS-5D Mark III

03/09/2012 02:56:57 PM · #783

Please explain this to me, how can contraception be health care?

Health care is used to fix something in our bodies. Are our bodies broken and need a daily pill to function properly?

CJinCA

Canon EOS-7D

Canon EF 28-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS USM

03/09/2012 03:14:54 PM · #784

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Oh I don't deny those things Paul. I think it would disproportionately affect women (the Head Start cut). But it's not being done TO affect women.

There we disagree -- I believe it quite plausible that this is a deliberate attempt to continue to keep women at an economic and political disadvantage.

Really? It just strikes me as such an odd strategy or ideology. Everything these days seems to be about reelection and you'd think a strategy that ostracizes 50% of the population would be a guaranteed loser. Combine this with the fact that many of these proposals have support from conservative women it just doesn't make sense to me at least.

As a registered Republican I am very disappointed in the stand the current crop of Republican candidates have taken on the "Choice" issue and I believe many other Republican women feel the same. I thought it had been decided to leave it up to women and their doctors after Roe v Wade. I would be surprised if Obama did not get re-elected because of the strong feelings most women have on the right to decide for themselves. It makes no sense to me that the party would dig their heels in over this as I believe they will lose the women's votes.

03/09/2012 03:39:20 PM · #785

Originally posted by CJinCA:

You know, interestingly, the difference in support for/against abortion between men and women is very small. About 4%. But what the Republicans are currently pushing isn't new. People have been against abortion since 1973 and the Republicans have generally carried that mantle.

Message edited by author 2012-03-09 15:40:35.

Sony 24-70mm F4 Vario-Tessar T* FE OSS

03/09/2012 04:02:16 PM · #786

Originally posted by GeneralE:

I sympathize with your thoughts here, but I think you just demonstrated why the word "war" is good shorthand. No one wants to say "there continues to be a concerted and persistent effort on the part of a large number of political/social "conservatives" and some religious organizations to further restrict and roll back the rights and opportunities for women to control their own destinies on a fully equal basis with men" every time they want to communicate what's happening politically in the U.S. right now, although it's certainly useful to spell it out once in a while.

Bear_Music

Samsung Galaxy S24 Ultra

03/09/2012 04:06:36 PM · #787

Originally posted by Nullix:

Please explain this to me, how can contraception be health care?

Health care is used to fix something in our bodies. Are our bodies broken and need a daily pill to function properly?

That's not correct, any more than "house maintenance" only involves fixing things when they break. Ideally, maintenance and upkeep ("care") means nothing breaks, because wear-and-tear has been anticipated. One of the greatest shortcomings of the health-care system we're saddled with in this country is that it spends vastly bloated amounts of money on "fixing" and very little on "preventing".

R.

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

03/09/2012 04:12:26 PM · #788

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

You are not alone in thinking a lot of what the Republicans say doesn't make sense. :-)

Originally posted by Nullix:

Please explain this to me, how can contraception be health care?

Health care is used to fix something in our bodies. Are our bodies broken and need a daily pill to function properly?

Ever hear of "preventive care" or "health maintenance." Sorry, but "fixing" the body is only the last stage of health "care."

Message edited by author 2012-03-09 16:14:47.

Kelli

Canon EOS-D60

Canon EF 28-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS USM

03/09/2012 04:12:42 PM · #789

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by Nullix:
Please explain this to me, how can contraception be health care?

Health care is used to fix something in our bodies. Are our bodies broken and need a daily pill to function properly?

That's not correct, any more than "house maintenance" only involves fixing things when they break. Ideally, maintenance and upkeep ("care") means nothing breaks, because wear-and-tear has been anticipated. One of the greatest shortcomings of the health-care system we're saddled with in this country is that it spends vastly bloated amounts of money on "fixing" and very little on "preventing".

R.

That's for sure. I got new insurance Jan. 1st. They just denied three of my prescriptions. Things I've been taking for years now because they are what work for me. I tend to have very severe side effects with certain other meds. My cardiologist flipped out. It was kind of funny to hear him rant it out while he paced the little exam room. "What the hell is wrong with these people? When are they going to let the doctors decide what the best course of treatment is instead of some guy who doesn't even know the patient? Would they rather pay for another heart attack?" Oh, it was priceless.

03/09/2012 04:13:00 PM · #790

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:
Yes, what about all the non-abortion pieces of legislation? I'm afraid it doesn't matter how much information we provide here, for those who choose to remain ignorant and blind.

Really? Ignorant and blind? To what? My beef is with the semantics of declaring it a "war on women". To me, that means the legislation is being passed to combat...women. Why am I supporting this bill? Because you are a WOMAN! and you need to be stopped. It just strikes me as inflammatory spin. Could it be a "war on abortion"? By all means. That war has been waged since 1973. The contraception issue is also complicated by the religious issue that started this whole thread. Is anybody actually trying to ban birth control (if that's the case then I do plead ignorance but would not agree with such an idea)?

I mean, look at Monica's list she linked.

7) And at the federal level, Republicans want to cut that same program, Head Start, by $1 billion. That means over 200,000 kids could lose their spots in preschool.

I'm a big fan of Head Start and think the Republicans are misguided in their efforts to cut it, but how is this a "war on WOMEN"? The stretch is enormous. I could just as easily call it a "war on Americans" or "war on Children" or "war on education" or "war on breakfast" (since Head Start often has reduced or free breakfast). Americans, children, education and breakfasts are affected by the move, but it's not the raison d'etre for the bill. I'm sure if the Republicans were to give it a title it would be a "war on government spending". Do you see my point?

You know, the Republicans use this kind of language all the time, such as "war on religion," but I've never seen you react with such hysteria and emotion when they do it.

And I'll just say ditto to GeneralE's responses to your remarks.

03/09/2012 04:16:30 PM · #791

Originally posted by GeneralE:

As a registered pacifist ...

Just curious... who are you registered with? :-)

Did you ever visit the Center for the Study of Non-Violence in Palo Alto?

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

03/09/2012 04:17:40 PM · #792

Originally posted by Kelli:

Good thing you don't have some "government bureaucrat" determining what kind of health care you get, eh?

escapetooz

Canon EOS-500D Rebel T1i

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6

03/09/2012 04:17:56 PM · #793

Originally posted by Nullix:

Please explain this to me, how can contraception be health care?

Health care is used to fix something in our bodies. Are our bodies broken and need a daily pill to function properly?

You mean aside from the women that use it to control a number of issues like cysts, heavy and painful periods and other such hormone issues? Have you ignored that? The very reason Fluke was testifying? I have lesbian friends on birth control for those very reasons and (obviously) no others.

Our bodies? You are not a woman, so it's not about your body is it?

Health care is not just about fixing things. I have my own qualms with our entire health care industry (where is the focus on nutrition and lifestyle choices??) It is way too focused on pharmacology and I personally will never take BC unless I feel it's the only choice for my health. But you know what, that's not YOUR choice, nor mine to make for other women. You are not a woman. You don't have to decide if you need birth control or not. It's frankly not your business to say who gets it covered and who doesn't.

Preventative health care and proper family planning save families and our country money and resources and helps curb crime and overpopulation. There is NO real reason to oppose the affordable availability of birth control except for religious ones, and those are not relevant in the public sector. Why is this so hard to grasp?

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

03/09/2012 04:22:20 PM · #794

Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:

Originally posted by GeneralE:
As a registered pacifist ...

Just curious... who are you registered with? :-)

Did you ever visit the Center for the Study of Non-Violence in Palo Alto?

I'm registered with the Selective Service System -- I'm now classified 4-W (CO -- completed two years alternative service)

If that's the place co-founded by Ira Sandperl, no I never actually went there, but he was the creative writing teacher at my elementary school, and wrote a letter of support for me to the Draft Board when I was granted CO status.

Message edited by author 2012-03-09 16:23:26.

escapetooz

Canon EOS-500D Rebel T1i

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6

03/09/2012 04:27:04 PM · #795

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Women have been a "minority" for much longer than they should be in most of the world. Remember the history of how hard women had to fight for the vote? That ringing any bells? You think everything changed and everyone is all equal and good now? Racism and sexism cleared off and went away just like that? No, it's just not so "cool" any more to be racist/sexist so people that are have to be sneaker about it and keep their talks to behind closed doors amongst "peers". (And some like Gingrich aren't sneaky at all and people STILL turn a blind eye and feign ignorance, or even applaud the sexist/racist's transparent attempts to claim anyone who suggests it is a terrible, low person.)

I recall opening up a forum to discuss feminism here a few years back and getting absolutely pummeled by guys so adamant that sexism didn't exist whilst being some of the biggest misogynists I had ever encountered.

That's the thing, most people who are, don't even realize it. It's very hard for some to recognize their own privileges and biases. No one wants to be told, "hey, you know your life has been easier cus you're a white male." They want to keep on believing they worked hard and earned exactly what they got (ignoring the minorities that worked just as hard and well and DIDN'T get what they have).

I always try to be aware of my privileges, and sometimes even I fail at that.

Message edited by author 2012-03-09 16:28:44.

03/09/2012 04:33:22 PM · #796

Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:

Oh, but clearly that's a war.

Haha. I'm just kidding. Naw, I'd be pretty well against that moniker, at least in regard to the birth control kerfuffle. :) Shannon's waging a war, but that's beside the point and it's a really small one like the pretend war in Wag the Dog.

Message edited by author 2012-03-09 16:36:08.

Canon EF 28-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS USM

03/09/2012 05:04:34 PM · #797

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:

Originally posted by GeneralE:
As a registered pacifist ...

Just curious... who are you registered with? :-)

Did you ever visit the Center for the Study of Non-Violence in Palo Alto?

I'm registered with the Selective Service System -- I'm now classified 4-W (CO -- completed two years alternative service)

If that's the place co-founded by Ira Sandperl, no I never actually went there, but he was the creative writing teacher at my elementary school, and wrote a letter of support for me to the Draft Board when I was granted CO status.

Okay, that name doesn't ring a bell. Was he with the American Friends Service Committee? That was the group running the place. One of the teachers in my alternative high school in NY was a member of the AFSC and connected me with some folks at the Center (or maybe it was Institute? - my memory fails me). They were wonderful people, let me crash there when I was flat broke and shared their food with me. They also let me take several books from the library which I mailed back months later.

What was the alternative service you performed?

Kelli

Canon EOS-D60

03/09/2012 05:33:28 PM · #798

eta: Nevermind, I just found out it was fake.

Message edited by author 2012-03-09 18:02:02.

Nullix

Canon EOS-5D Mark III

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

03/09/2012 06:24:04 PM · #799

Originally posted by escapetooz:

Originally posted by Nullix:
Please explain this to me, how can contraception be health care?

Health care is used to fix something in our bodies. Are our bodies broken and need a daily pill to function properly?

You mean aside from the women that use it to control a number of issues like cysts, heavy and painful periods and other such hormone issues?

That's why I specified contraception. Those are reasons for taking the "pill" for non-contraceptively. In those case, you are taking the pill to help your body cope.

Originally posted by escapetooz:

Preventative health care and proper family planning save families and our country money and resources and helps curb crime and overpopulation. There is NO real reason to oppose the affordable availability of birth control except for religious ones, and those are not relevant in the public sector. Why is this so hard to grasp?

I'm not talking about saving our families, country, resources or crime. With our natural bodies, how is contraception considered health care?