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02/14/2012 11:10:17 PM · #151 |
If an embryo or fetus is granted "personhood" in utero, can the woman swear out a complaint for assault and battery every time it kicks her bladder and have it arrested and incarcerated?
And what do you think are the implications of a woman's immune system reacting to the state of pregnancy as if to a parasitic infection? |
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02/15/2012 12:24:24 AM · #152 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
If an embryo or fetus is granted "personhood" in utero, can the woman swear out a complaint for assault and battery every time it kicks her bladder and have it arrested and incarcerated?
And what do you think are the implications of a woman's immune system reacting to the state of pregnancy as if to a parasitic infection? |
Silly, but your point is made that there are interesting ramifications for nearly any point one determines "personhood" is granted. |
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02/15/2012 12:29:47 AM · #153 |
| So how long is the gestation of this thread? |
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02/15/2012 12:37:35 AM · #154 |
Contractions haven't started yet.
BTW: I can almost guarantee that if men went through labor, free contraception would be universally available. |
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02/15/2012 12:42:40 AM · #155 |
| True, but we have that third trimester to contend with. . . not easy! |
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02/15/2012 12:49:47 AM · #156 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I'm not quite sure I get you because the church is in plenty of businesses. Hopsitals. Education. Charities. |
Then maybe they need to give back the annual 2.9 billion dollars of taxpayer money they receive from the federal government. |
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02/15/2012 12:51:19 AM · #157 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
If an embryo or fetus is granted "personhood" in utero, can the woman swear out a complaint for assault and battery every time it kicks her bladder and have it arrested and incarcerated?
And what do you think are the implications of a woman's immune system reacting to the state of pregnancy as if to a parasitic infection? |
I seem to recall other groups that were dehumanized and able to be treated as property or killed.
There are some odd case laws here in California. If you kill a pregnant woman, you can be convicted of double murder, but you can kill the unborn and not be convicted. As if the birth canal has some magical properties. |
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02/15/2012 12:54:17 AM · #158 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I'm not quite sure I get you because the church is in plenty of businesses. Hopsitals. Education. Charities. |
Then maybe they need to give back the annual 2.9 billion dollars of taxpayer money they receive from the federal government. |
Like the oil companies? ;). Good luck with getting that one past the lobby. |
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02/15/2012 12:56:30 AM · #159 |
| Before we go crazy on existing law and fetuses, it is important to realize this would be a very poor way for a society to decide on who is a person (ie. by looking at how existing law would apply). The laws can and should be melded to the moral code of society and not the other way around. |
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02/15/2012 02:48:58 AM · #160 |
Originally posted by Nullix:
Originally posted by escapetooz:
Originally posted by Nullix:
The bishops are concerned with fornication, but ED drugs don't kill another person while the birth control pill does. |
You seem to be missing some basic anatomy/physiology knowledge here. How is not releasing one egg a month killing, but spilling millions of sperm into a condom, sock, toilet, floor what have you, not killing? Don't spill the seed man... right?
Answer: neither are killing. That's just dumb. |
Birth Control Pills
Originally posted by from WebMD:
Hormonal contraceptives can also prevent pregnancy by making the lining of the womb inhospitable for implantation. |
ie. Chemical abortion. That's the problem with birth control. Of course, if you believe abortion isn't killing, then you can't understand. The Catholic Church believes abortion is killing a person and we shouldn't have to pay to kill others. |
NO it is NOT chemical abortion if the egg isn't fertilized. AGAIN you are not understanding a very basic concept. To illustrate see the following from commonsense.com/duh:
"Ejaculating into a toilet can also prevent pregnancy by providing a slippery porcelain environment, inhospitable for implantation."
Again I repeat, how is birth control any different than spewing all of your sperm into a non-vaginal area? Please stop trying to play birth control as an abortion issue. That is an entirely different topic. Birth control is meant to PREVENT abortions.
You are going down the slippery slope of coulda woulda shoulda. If we continue down that road how far does it go? Maybe celibate people are killing tons of babies they could be having too if they would only have sex! Damn those celibate priests!
Hell my own body "kills babies" every month when it releases my own unfertilized egg without the aid of birth control. Am I a killer?
Message edited by author 2012-02-15 03:13:22. |
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02/15/2012 02:55:47 AM · #161 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Contractions haven't started yet.
BTW: I can almost guarantee that if men went through labor, free contraception would be universally available. |
Studies show women AND men fair better in matriarchal societies. There is a misguided belief that these societies are patriarchies in reverse, but they are far closer to egalitarian.
The world would be much different if women weren't beaten down into submission by force or societal pressures.
So yes. If men were women and had babies maybe they would change their mind. It still blows my mind that Fox news didn't even think to put ONE woman on their panel questioning about this birth control debate. Gee, I can't imagine why.
Religion needs to get its hands off of women's rights and back off. |
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02/15/2012 05:35:29 AM · #162 |
Originally posted by Nullix:
...I seem to recall other groups that were dehumanized and able to be treated as property or killed. |
Yes indeed, and some of those were the direct result of church interventions... but I digress.
Ray |
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02/15/2012 10:20:01 AM · #163 |
Originally posted by escapetooz:
Originally posted by Nullix:
Birth Control Pills
Originally posted by from WebMD:
Hormonal contraceptives can also prevent pregnancy by making the lining of the womb inhospitable for implantation. |
ie. Chemical abortion. That's the problem with birth control. Of course, if you believe abortion isn't killing, then you can't understand. The Catholic Church believes abortion is killing a person and we shouldn't have to pay to kill others. |
NO it is NOT chemical abortion if the egg isn't fertilized. AGAIN you are not understanding a very basic concept. To illustrate see the following from commonsense.com/duh:
"Ejaculating into a toilet can also prevent pregnancy by providing a slippery porcelain environment, inhospitable for implantation."
Again I repeat, how is birth control any different than spewing all of your sperm into a non-vaginal area? Please stop trying to play birth control as an abortion issue. That is an entirely different topic. Birth control is meant to PREVENT abortions. |
You missed the main point from the article (this is also documented in that insert you get with the pill).
Check the link again.
The pill works in 3 ways:
1. "...usually stops the body from releasing an egg from the ovary...."
2. "...change the cervical mucus to make it difficult for the sperm to find an egg..."
3. "...can also prevent pregnancy by making the lining of the womb inhospitable for implantation..."
Terms like "usually" and "difficult" don't mean always. So, if your egg is released, and a sperm gets past the cervix, the pill makes your baby unable to implant into your womb, thus causing an abortion. |
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02/15/2012 10:45:11 AM · #164 |
With birth control, pregnancy is treated like an illness. The female body is broken and needs a daily pill to prevent this illness.
I believe the female body is beautiful and isn't broken.
I find it truly ironic, that the HHS mandate is pushing birth control and abortion coverage, but doesn't cover infertility treatments (which is a disease and a disorder). Why is that? |
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02/15/2012 10:50:45 AM · #165 |
| Usually it comes down to money. What is most fiscally advantageous? |
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02/15/2012 11:14:48 AM · #166 |
Originally posted by Nullix:
With birth control, pregnancy is treated like an illness. The female body is broken and needs a daily pill to prevent this illness. |
Or the rhythm method, to also prevent this illness. (Nice try.) |
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02/15/2012 11:30:34 AM · #167 |
| I'll just weigh in as a doctor and say Nullix is technically correct. Although the pill does not usually prevent pregnancy in this manner, in a small percentage of cases (I don't recall the number but it is on the order of <2%) it works by preventing the fertilized egg from implanting in the uterus. I won't comment on this other than to say this is known in the medical community. |
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02/15/2012 11:33:37 AM · #168 |
Originally posted by escapetooz:
The world would be much different if women weren't beaten down into submission by force or societal pressures. |
That principle generally applies to ANY segment of the population– gender, race, sexual orientation, nationality, etc. People are people, and as soon as you classify them into groups with superior and inferior rights and privileges, you're asking for trouble. |
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02/15/2012 12:10:35 PM · #169 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by escapetooz:
The world would be much different if women weren't beaten down into submission by force or societal pressures. |
That principle generally applies to ANY segment of the population– gender, race, sexual orientation, nationality, etc. People are people, and as soon as you classify them into groups with superior and inferior rights and privileges, you're asking for trouble. |
Next you'll be asking for atheists to have the rights and status of everybody else and there I must draw the line! ;) |
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02/15/2012 02:23:03 PM · #170 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I'll just weigh in as a doctor and say Nullix is technically correct. Although the pill does not usually prevent pregnancy in this manner, in a small percentage of cases (I don't recall the number but it is on the order of <2%) it works by preventing the fertilized egg from implanting in the uterus. I won't comment on this other than to say this is known in the medical community. |
And in some percentage of cases (possibly more than 2%) a fertilized ovum fails to implant for no known reason and without intervention, or the woman later miscarries ("spontaneously aborts") ... are we supposed to try a woman who miscarries for manslaughter?
Message edited by author 2012-02-15 14:23:54. |
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02/15/2012 02:30:02 PM · #171 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by Nullix:
With birth control, pregnancy is treated like an illness. The female body is broken and needs a daily pill to prevent this illness. |
Or the rhythm method, to also prevent this illness. (Nice try.) |
Not certain what you mean by "nice try" but it seems like a snarky remark.
The rhythm method can also be used to get pregnant
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02/15/2012 02:36:41 PM · #172 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I'll just weigh in as a doctor and say Nullix is technically correct. Although the pill does not usually prevent pregnancy in this manner, in a small percentage of cases (I don't recall the number but it is on the order of <2%) it works by preventing the fertilized egg from implanting in the uterus. I won't comment on this other than to say this is known in the medical community. |
And in some percentage of cases (possibly more than 2%) a fertilized ovum fails to implant for no known reason and without intervention, or the woman later miscarries ("spontaneously aborts") ... are we supposed to try a woman who miscarries for manslaughter? |
You just seem to be off on the wrong track here Paul with trying to apply laws like this to bizarre effect (not to mention assault, manslaughter and lots of other such crimes are based on intent or neglect). Let's say the law, as written, would actually support a charge of manslaughter. This doesn't invalidate the principle of personhood for embryos, it invalidates the law as written. Laws should be subservient to moral codes, not vice versa.
If society deemed a fertilized embryo a person (which it has every right to do if it wants) the laws would adjust to reflect this reality.
Message edited by author 2012-02-15 15:00:59. |
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02/15/2012 02:37:26 PM · #173 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
And in some percentage of cases (possibly more than 2%) a fertilized ovum fails to implant for no known reason and without intervention, or the woman later miscarries ("spontaneously aborts") ... are we supposed to try a woman who miscarries for manslaughter? |
Is that being done now? Are woman convicted of manslaughter when they miscarry? Are we convicting parents in the case of Sudden Infant Death Syndrome?
No.
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02/15/2012 05:40:03 PM · #174 |
Originally posted by Nullix:
I find it truly ironic, that the HHS mandate is pushing birth control and abortion coverage, but doesn't cover infertility treatments (which is a disease and a disorder). Why is that? |
You might want to read This... its seems the church considers that sinful also.
Ray |
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02/15/2012 05:42:30 PM · #175 |
Originally posted by Nullix:
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by Nullix:
With birth control, pregnancy is treated like an illness. The female body is broken and needs a daily pill to prevent this illness. |
Or the rhythm method, to also prevent this illness. (Nice try.) |
Not certain what you mean by "nice try" but it seems like a snarky remark.
The rhythm method can also be used to get pregnant |
Do you know what they call people who practice the rhythm method....parents. (maybe that is what Louis meant by nice try.
Ray |
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