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02/06/2012 07:31:44 PM · #76 |
Originally posted by deeby:
Originally posted by mcaldo:
..they taste of ash in my mouth. |
Have you read The Road by Cormac McArthy? All that dialog and not one quotation mark in the whole book... |
I was tempted to, but no really, any good?
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02/06/2012 07:49:33 PM · #77 |
Originally posted by Mousie:
But back to the OP...
If you don't like certain criticism, don't listen to it. While there's a clear line between the statements "I don't like this" and "this is objectively bad", getting upset when a commenter doesn't express or understand the difference is pointless. Not everyone cares to think of things on that level, and they may be completely content to keep it at the personal. Trying to change them is a losing battle. They just don't care.
Complaining about feedback of any sort on a site designed to encourage cross-pollination between people of different levels of experience and approaches to photography? Silly.
Just like there is no 'wrong' art... there is no 'wrong' way to critique. There are critiques that mean something to you, and there are critiques that leave you cold. Look at them the same way you look at other people's photographs. You must extract your own benefit from them for them to be useful, no matter where they come from, what they contain, or how they're worded. |
+1 & well said.
PS: You grew your beard wrong. |
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02/06/2012 07:59:26 PM · #78 |
Originally posted by mcaldo:
Originally posted by deeby:
Originally posted by mcaldo:
..they taste of ash in my mouth. |
Have you read The Road by Cormac McArthy? All that dialog and not one quotation mark in the whole book... |
I was tempted to, but no really, any good? |
I think it's an amazing book...really bleak, very sparse at times, and absolutely terrifying at others. In fact, at one point I was so anxiety-riddled that i had to put it down for a week or two. It still haunts me but I dare not pick it up (for a while) |
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02/06/2012 08:06:33 PM · #79 |
Originally posted by deeby:
I think it's an amazing book...really bleak, very sparse at times, and absolutely terrifying at others. In fact, at one point I was so anxiety-riddled that i had to put it down for a week or two. It still haunts me but I dare not pick it up (for a while) |
Hemm, thanks. That was precisely the reason why I steered clear of it, and of the movie too :D
Probably I have become a chicken, I kind of feel like not adding fictional stress to real life stress.
But for sure, from your description it sounds worth reading, perhaps I should dare..
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02/06/2012 09:52:07 PM · #80 |
Originally posted by ubique:
A quote from writer Neil Gaiman:
Remember: when people tell you something̢۪s wrong or doesn̢۪t work for them, they are almost always right. When they tell you exactly what they think is wrong and how to fix it, they are almost always wrong.
He was referring to literary criticism, but I think the same is true of photographic criticism. Ultimately, a comment of "This doesn't work for me" is of more practical use to you than another comment detailing all of the many ways the commenter would have made the photograph better.
Unless, of course, you wish to learn how to take someone else's photographs. |
No.
Sorry.
Disagree.
Back to the argument I was making in the last ubique's thread :)
We're not learning to take someone else's photographs, we're gathering all the information we can. Why can't we look at Ansel Adams, get processing ideas from bear_music, add more ideas from Ursula, turn it around a bit, skew it some more, add in a squirrel or two, and come up with our own twist?
Do we honestly have to do everything in a vacuum?
Does getting a comment from someone saying that they would have used a luminosity mask to get a little better, more interesting separation of the lights and darks ruin your photo? Is it that difficult to ignore it if you're not interested in it? Why do people try to shut this down? There are many people who would love to get ANY kind of feedback -- this type included.
I'm truly humbled by the people who know everything and have nothing to learn. Unfortunately, I'm not one of them. I look forward to the comments that give me suggestions on how to change my image. To be honest, I ignore most of them, because most of the time I disagree. However, it occasionally does get me to look at my work through someone else's eyes. There have definitely been times where they have seen something that I didn't consider, didn't know about, didn't appreciate, etc, where I actually learned something.
Why are people so offended when someone is honestly trying to help? I didn't realize that it could be such a gut-wrenching experience to receive a comment of this type.
Just ignore it! There are other people who appreciate it.
I had a very interesting conversation with  ubique. If I'm lucky, in my lifetime, he will like 4 of my photos. If I'm lucky, in my lifetime, I'll like a few more than 4 of his. I will never open his eyes to anything, and my comments will probably never be useful to him, because he has done far more studying than I have. I'm not doing anything different, because I'm still in my learning stage. I don't even know enough to know what's different and what's not. However, he didn't think I'd find his comments useful as far as what he likes/doesn't like and what he'd do differently. He was wrong. (sorry, it was proven. :) I found it very interesting, very informational, and I find myself thinking about it more and more as I shoot and look through challenges.
Hopefully the site suggestion of a "do not want comments" box will happen in the near future. Perhaps that would solve all our problems. And the people who don't want critiques won't have to see them. And the people who want to understand why a photo holds no interest can get their answers.
(Hi Paul!)
Message edited by author 2012-02-06 21:55:07. |
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02/06/2012 10:06:15 PM · #81 |
Originally posted by vawendy:
I'm still in my learning stage |
Don't ever leave it. I won't either.
umm... wasn't I supposed to comment on your challenge photos? sigh, a pocketful of promises |
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02/06/2012 10:07:11 PM · #82 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
Originally posted by vawendy:
I'm still in my learning stage |
Don't ever leave it. I won't either.
umm... wasn't I supposed to comment on your challenge photos? sigh, a pocketful of promises |
Yup... ;)
Message edited by author 2012-02-06 23:08:37. |
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02/06/2012 11:49:06 PM · #83 |
Well after wading through most of this thread before it began to unravel, all I can say is, I do hope nobody requests a critique on their image, as I'm pretty much the only active CC member these days.
I do my best to give an honest and constructive criticism on the photos that are sent to me, and yes, a lot of the times I will suggest that the suggestions made - whether by me or commenters too - be given a try and encourage them to reshoot if they feel like it.
This is NOT an attempt to get them to shoot in my style, at all, but to urge them to experiment and see what works for them, which is what I did when I was on the receiving end of critiques especially in the early days here. And more often than not I get PMs thanking me for the critique. |
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02/06/2012 11:54:34 PM · #84 |
Originally posted by vawendy:
Originally posted by ubique:
(blah, blah, blah)
Unless, of course, you wish to learn how to take someone else's photographs. |
No.
(yada, yada, yada)
(Hi Paul!) |
Hi to you, vaw!
I wasn't suggesting that folks shouldn't comment however they like. They should.
I am saying only that if you follow other people's advice on how to make your photographs better, it's a two-edged sharp thing. On the one hand, you'll progress. But on the other, it won't be in the direction of your choosing; it will be in the direction of their choosing. And soon enough, if you work very hard and pay close attention, your pictures will look the same as theirs.
And if every neophyte does as you have done, then pretty soon everyone's pictures will look the same. And hey! ... gee whiz! ...they do!
Before digitial made us all think we were photographers, there were already too many pictures of sunsets and piers in the fog and portraits of pretty girls with their essence retouched right out of the picture. Now, since digital, there are literally hundreds of millions more. It's enough! Just stop it!
Edit to clarify, where I have used the expression 'you', I was not referring to my good friend Wendy. I actually meant 'one'. But that 'one' stuff sounds so pretentious and wanky, and I'm already pretentious and wanky enough, thanks.
Message edited by author 2012-02-07 00:09:38. |
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02/07/2012 12:05:20 AM · #85 |
I just found this, and have not waded through all that has been said, but back to Paul's original statement: He was referring to literary criticism, but I think the same is true of photographic criticism. Ultimately, a comment of "This doesn't work for me" is of more practical use to you than another comment detailing all of the many ways the commenter would have made the photograph better.
Unless, of course, you wish to learn how to take someone else's photographs.
This happens quite frequently to me : to quote on a recent photo : "This would have been a great shot without the added photoshop glow or dreamy look"
I mean that;s the exact look I was going for, I mean look at the title of the photo, It was 'Dream dog' so for the dreamy look I added soft focus.
Some of my comments have been tempered with praise, then slight critic then praise once again. If I really hate something I just don't comment anymore.
I have to accept that most people on this site, not all I know, are technicians and not artists............c'est la vie |
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02/07/2012 12:06:44 AM · #86 |
Originally posted by deeby:
Originally posted by mcaldo:
Originally posted by deeby:
Originally posted by mcaldo:
..they taste of ash in my mouth. |
Have you read The Road by Cormac McArthy? All that dialog and not one quotation mark in the whole book... |
I was tempted to, but no really, any good? |
I think it's an amazing book...really bleak, very sparse at times, and absolutely terrifying at others. In fact, at one point I was so anxiety-riddled that i had to put it down for a week or two. It still haunts me but I dare not pick it up (for a while) |
It's great. When you're done, you'll want to go to sleep with your head in the oven. |
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02/07/2012 12:24:59 AM · #87 |
Originally posted by Spork99:
Originally posted by deeby:
Originally posted by mcaldo:
Originally posted by deeby:
Originally posted by mcaldo:
..they taste of ash in my mouth. |
Have you read The Road by Cormac McArthy? All that dialog and not one quotation mark in the whole book... |
I was tempted to, but no really, any good? |
I think it's an amazing book...really bleak, very sparse at times, and absolutely terrifying at others. In fact, at one point I was so anxiety-riddled that i had to put it down for a week or two. It still haunts me but I dare not pick it up (for a while) |
It's great. When you're done, you'll want to go to sleep with your head in the oven. |
I loved it, as I do all of McCarthy's stuff. Even Child of God. Cormac McCarthy is for me the greatest living American fiction writer. And his dialogue (once you've figured out where it's hiding) is as good as Elmore Leonard's.
But imagine if every new writer took McCarthy's advice on writing (well, first you'd have to imagine McCarthy giving any advice). The result would be too awful to contemplate, yes?
Same with the greatest dead American writer: imagine if everyone submitted their new manuscripts to Hemingway for critique, and then followed his advice. Then. Every. Sentence. Would. Be. Like. This.
Yes, we must consider all the advice we get, but be very, very sparing on following it. Or. This. Happens.
Message edited by author 2012-02-07 00:36:35. |
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02/07/2012 03:50:47 AM · #88 |
On the point of learning; isn't it from books, tutorial, education, professional advice and from being critical of other works that we become better at what we do? All these things are forms of criticism, if we were to hide in the small cubbyhole that is our mind and limit ourselves to what we know and nothing else, then how could we ever hope to become better at what we do. Unless what some of you are stating is that you already are at the pinnacle of your craft.
What I want is to step outside of myself and be able to view my images from someone else's perspective. Viewing a problem from all sides is the best way to solve it, while being in the problem makes it almost impossible to solve it. I'd rather understand what I create completely and be able to view it objectively.
Yes the images I take are personal but they're still about sharing my visual experience with the world and if images are worth a thousand words, then I prefer to expand my visual vocabulary by learning from external sources instead of relying on my limited vocabulary.
All very cliché but really doesn't make it any less true.
Message edited by author 2012-02-07 03:51:48. |
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02/07/2012 06:33:04 AM · #89 |
Originally posted by ubique:
Originally posted by vawendy:
Originally posted by ubique:
(blah, blah, blah)
Unless, of course, you wish to learn how to take someone else's photographs. |
No.
(yada, yada, yada)
(Hi Paul!) |
Hi to you, vaw!
Before digitial made us all think we were photographers, there were already too many pictures of sunsets and piers in the fog and portraits of pretty girls with their essence retouched right out of the picture. Now, since digital, there are literally hundreds of millions more. It's enough! Just stop it!
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Nope.
:)
There can never be too many pictures of fog.
Nope.
It all boils down to what you enjoy.
Each time a thread like this comes up, I start feeling inadequate. Simply because I'm not the photographer I wish to be. But it's not because of technical skill, it's because of lack of imagination. (sorry to invoke 1x folks, but it has to be done...) I love the shots on 1x.com. There are so many beautiful, creative shots. I love Coley's work on DPC. But my mind doesn't work that way. I'm way too literal. I see the world as it is, and I don't seem to be able to see the world as I want it to be, or see something beyond the norm. I've tried for the last two years. Each time a challenge comes up, I want to create something different, unusual, unique. But I lack the imagination. Some people have it. Some don't. I keep trying, but I don't have it.
However, I enjoy what I see.
The true artists can see the beauty in the unexpected and the perverse. I never claimed to be an artist.
However, I love the beauty in the normal things. I never get tired of looking at sunrises and sunsets (not sunset pictures, but actual sunsets.) When I see a hint of color in the sky, I always go look, and usually drag a family member or two. I love foggy mornings. Any type of wildlife is fascinating. I went out in the front yard in my pajamas because my husband said there was a vole digging a hole by the sidewalk. I love watching birds. I find squirrels fascinating (annoying, but fascinating). Nature, for me, is sheer joy. The squirrel shots I do usually take between 6-8 hours. I sit by my back door with a book in one hand and the camera in the other and simply wait. While it may not be art, it is photography. I take pictures of things that fascinate me. I'm just easily fascinated. :)
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02/07/2012 07:58:39 AM · #90 |
Originally posted by vawendy:
Nope.
:)
There can never be too many pictures of fog.
Nope.
It all boils down to what you enjoy.
Each time a thread like this comes up, I start feeling inadequate. Simply because I'm not the photographer I wish to be. But it's not because of technical skill, it's because of lack of imagination. (sorry to invoke 1x folks, but it has to be done...) I love the shots on 1x.com. There are so many beautiful, creative shots. I love Coley's work on DPC. But my mind doesn't work that way. I'm way too literal. I see the world as it is, and I don't seem to be able to see the world as I want it to be, or see something beyond the norm. I've tried for the last two years. Each time a challenge comes up, I want to create something different, unusual, unique. But I lack the imagination. Some people have it. Some don't. I keep trying, but I don't have it.
However, I enjoy what I see.
The true artists can see the beauty in the unexpected and the perverse. I never claimed to be an artist.
However, I love the beauty in the normal things. I never get tired of looking at sunrises and sunsets (not sunset pictures, but actual sunsets.) When I see a hint of color in the sky, I always go look, and usually drag a family member or two. I love foggy mornings. Any type of wildlife is fascinating. I went out in the front yard in my pajamas because my husband said there was a vole digging a hole by the sidewalk. I love watching birds. I find squirrels fascinating (annoying, but fascinating). Nature, for me, is sheer joy. The squirrel shots I do usually take between 6-8 hours. I sit by my back door with a book in one hand and the camera in the other and simply wait. While it may not be art, it is photography. I take pictures of things that fascinate me. I'm just easily fascinated. :) |
That is beautiful.
I get up at 3 in the morning and scout for places to sit and wait for the sun to come up. This usually consists of waking the family way before the alarm clock, packing up the camera gear and heading out to Tim's for a cup of hot green tea. I want to see the sun come up, it can be a different place or somewhere I've been a hundred times before. It's not to shoot pictures but just to enjoy it. That's what life is all about, having lost that passion until the recent birth of my son, I now plan on enjoy every single bit of it.
It's a pity not everyone experiences life that way and cannot find the beauty in simple things. That's the reason why I started taking pictures, I wanted to preserve those memories forever, as pure and true as possible. That's also why I have a passion for photography; by looking at other people's pictures I can see the sights they've seen, kind of like being with there myself, there's a purity to it which other form of art don't have. There's nothing I like more than travelling the world on google earth and visiting sights I might never get to see in real life through other people's pictures. I am so grateful for the millions of sunsets that have been captured. ♥
My memory has never been very good, I guess anxiety and agoraphobia has a lot to do with that, I'm easily distracted and tend to forget many details which makes life so enjoyable but looking through a viewfinder fixes all of that. Capturing the image allows me to relive those instances perpetually.
Unlike you I've never considered myself a photographer but rather an artist but from what you just said, I think my stance has suddenly changed. I guess I am a photographer after all. Thank you. |
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02/07/2012 08:53:47 AM · #91 |
Originally posted by Mousie:
But back to the OP...
If you don't like certain criticism, don't listen to it. While there's a clear line between the statements "I don't like this" and "this is objectively bad", getting upset when a commenter doesn't express or understand the difference is pointless. Not everyone cares to think of things on that level, and they may be completely content to keep it at the personal. Trying to change them is a losing battle. They just don't care.
Complaining about feedback of any sort on a site designed to encourage cross-pollination between people of different levels of experience and approaches to photography? Silly.
Just like there is no 'wrong' art... there is no 'wrong' way to critique. There are critiques that mean something to you, and there are critiques that leave you cold. Look at them the same way you look at other people's photographs. You must extract your own benefit from them for them to be useful, no matter where they come from, what they contain, or how they're worded. |
As long as there will be asinine comments, there will be pm's back to the asinine commenter I suppose. Its just as silly to say "don't talk about the comments you are getting , live with them" as it is to try to get people to think about what message they leave as a comment.
What you have is a rational scale, with colliding interests. 
people need to ask where they fall- many wonderful photogs here are in the upper right hand corner. Many high scoring popular photogs are not.
--- just like in music...
Message edited by author 2012-02-07 09:14:51. |
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02/07/2012 10:18:57 AM · #92 |
Seeing I started this whole rambling mess off with a quote from a writer, let me now finish it off with a quote from a photographer.
It's called Chances Are, You Suck, by photographer & photojournalist Kenneth Jarecke, and was published just yesterday.
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02/07/2012 11:09:59 AM · #93 |
Wait... people get 100's of likes?
I must be doing it wrong. |
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02/07/2012 11:33:01 AM · #94 |
Originally posted by ubique:
Seeing I started this whole rambling mess off with a quote from a writer, let me now finish it off with a quote from a photographer.
It's called Chances Are, You Suck, by photographer & photojournalist Kenneth Jarecke, and was published just yesterday. |
Quite an uplifting read, Paul. It confirmed my suspicions regarding my photography. Thanks for sharing. |
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02/07/2012 11:38:53 AM · #95 |
Originally posted by ubique:
Seeing I started this whole rambling mess off with a quote from a writer, let me now finish it off with a quote from a photographer.
It's called Chances Are, You Suck, by photographer & photojournalist Kenneth Jarecke, and was published just yesterday. |
You just help make the other side's point. :)
From the article:
If you want to become a better photographer, look at these sites. When looking at the work, ask yourself, "How would I have approached this situation?" and/or "Would I have done better or worse than this photographer?" and also simple technical things, like what shutter speed or aperture was used.
Most of the time when a photographer comments it's for a dual purpose:
1. You learn by commenting. It gets you to look a little deeper. It is the "what would I have done better or worse than this photographer."
2. Perhaps the photographer might be interested in another point of view, and you might be helping someone out.
Now, I fully realize that the author is saying that we should look at excellent photography sights to do this. But I believe you can also learn by doing it anywhere. Maybe you won't learn as much. But you can still learn. I just commented on a photo in the "after the party" challenge. I was really impressed with a crop. Silly thing, but there it is. The photographer chose a crop that never would have occurred to me. I knew I liked the photo, but I didn't bother wondering why until I sat down to comment. For a week or two, I'll probably look a lot closer at my crops, wondering if there's something a little funky I can do with it. If I don't find anything in a week or two, I'll probably forget about it. But there's a little gem tucked away for further use. To me, that's what commenting is about.
If technical critiques bother you, turn your thinking around. There's a good chance that they're doing the critique to improve themselves. Figuring out what they would have done to it to make it better. What you're getting out of it are the specifics of what bothers them about the shot. If you don't care about specifics -- ignore it.
Also, from the article -- if positive feedback is your enemy, and if you should be suspicious of undue praise, why not embrace the negative -- no matter what form it takes? It gives you information. Informed or not -- information is power.
Message edited by author 2012-02-07 11:42:49. |
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02/07/2012 12:00:22 PM · #96 |
Originally posted by ubique:
Seeing I started this whole rambling mess off with a quote from a writer, let me now finish it off with a quote from a photographer.
It's called Chances Are, You Suck, by photographer & photojournalist Kenneth Jarecke, and was published just yesterday. |
Exactly. People will heap praise on mediocrity to avoid offending or bruising someone's fragile ego. I'm not interested in that.
A lot of my photos suck. But my intent with them isn't to create masterworks, it's to share my kid's birthday with his grandparents.
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02/07/2012 12:16:25 PM · #97 |
Originally posted by vawendy:
Originally posted by ubique:
Seeing I started this whole rambling mess off with a quote from a writer, let me now finish it off with a quote from a photographer.
It's called Chances Are, You Suck, by photographer & photojournalist Kenneth Jarecke, and was published just yesterday. |
You just help make the other side's point. :)
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What other side? Also, what point? :)
My only motivation is to reduce the amount of 'photography' present in most of the photographs at DPC. Unless you're really, really, really good (and hardly anyone is, incl me), photography just makes photographs dull and boring.
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02/07/2012 12:37:38 PM · #98 |
Originally posted by ubique:
My only motivation is to reduce the amount of 'photography' present in most of the photographs at DPC. Unless you're really, really, really good (and hardly anyone is, incl me), photography just makes photographs dull and boring. |
What?
I don't understand that at all...
And that article says that people are overly friendly on the internet but not in real life?
The only reason people get likes on Facebook is because these people are real life friends. Uploading a picture on a website where critique is expected, critique is usually harsh. I'm certainly not talking about DeviantArt and kiddy sites as such but rather a place like this one.
But I agree that saying you like something just to be considerate of someone else's feelings can do more harm than good. There's a singer in the small town where I live who gets tons of praise but seriously, he ranks at the bottom when it comes to live performances. So every time he gets on stage I just feel horrible for him, he acknowledges the positive critiques, dismisses all other people's comments and constructs motives for their negative criticism. Yeah, he's deleted me from Facebook and told me to F-Off when I was honest with him too.
I'm free to say "Your pitch is way off and your timing is horrible" just as I am free to say "Your focus is way off and your composition is ineffective". I think being critical like that is the best thing you can do for someone. And that article seems to be in agreement with that and in disagreement with your first post. |
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02/07/2012 01:05:30 PM · #99 |
Originally posted by vawendy:
I was really impressed with a crop. Silly thing, but there it is. The photographer chose a crop that never would have occurred to me. I knew I liked the photo, but I didn't bother wondering why until I sat down to comment. For a week or two, I'll probably look a lot closer at my crops, wondering if there's something a little funky I can do with it. |
You just gave yourself away. You're an artist.
If you think art is some different path than the path you're on, that just means you are defining art incorrectly. |
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02/07/2012 01:24:04 PM · #100 |
Originally posted by ubique:
My only motivation is to reduce the amount of 'photography' present in most of the photographs at DPC. Unless you're really, really, really good (and hardly anyone is, incl me), photography just makes photographs dull and boring. |
I've been thinking lately how boring the majority of challenge images are, including mine. Very, very few images move me. I want to get away from that. I am sick, sick, sick of boring. I am also sick of overdone images. The same old types of images win. Over and over. I mean, some of these shots were cool the first time I saw them, and I even wanted to create similar things. Now, I am so OVER trying to be someone else and I am so over watching other people do the same.
Not DPC or member bashing in any way. I like this place. I just want something deeper and I am working on going there. That's why I like looking at images, learning technicals, being critiqued, studying other people's work, trying to figure out why they are considered an artist, etc.
ETA: Something that has helped me tremendously are the 2 videos on kelbytraining.com where Scott Kelby goes out and about with Jay Maisel. Just listening to Jay and watching him walk around NY and hearing his thought process was enlightening and gave me permission to be my own person. It's funny, Scott Kelby is talking about technicals and asking questions but Jay was never interested in discussing that. He talked about the artistic process... being true to who you are and what moves you. Very good watch if you can subscribe to the kelby training site.
Message edited by author 2012-02-07 13:28:14. |
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