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12/16/2011 11:53:12 AM · #51
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

5th and 6th place in this challenge are pretty much NON-expert, for what that's worth. My original is linked in the comments space. I did some cloning to repair the upper right of the crab that might not be OK in advanced, but it's a single-capture image that hasn't been morphed/warped/altered in any significant way. NickyB's picture is definitely legal in advanced, and maybe even in basic, not sure if he used layers.



I enjoy competing against the fantasy-creators with more purely photographic images. I've done OK at it, too. So could anyone, with the right approach. Of course, that's just MY opinion; everyone's entitled to one. I do understand the point the OP (and others) are making, I just don't happen to agree with it. I particularly don't agree with any suggestion to remove the time constraints from the expert ruleset. I'd be OK with the occasional special-rules expert challenge that did that, though.

R.


And we thank you Bear for holding the line against the Digital artists, and using your vast PP expertise only for good, and for shots that remain photographcic in Nature.
12/16/2011 12:00:49 PM · #52
I really haven't had time to read through this whole thread, yet I would like to chime in here quickly. Whether the rules are changed or not I think there are way too many of these Expert challenges. I have been so busy and since I didn't have to participate in it for my WPL team I didn't pay attention to the fact that the After Man challenge that just closed was Expert and then right behind it is another Expert challenge with Heavy Metal. Too many! Many people I am sure are like me and don't have the time to spend countless hours processing images, so by doing so many Expert challenges you are just shutting many people out of a chance to participate at DPC.

I guess I am a little grumpy about this whole thing because despite putting in brutal overtime at work I just spent the past week shooting several images for a Heavy Metal entry that I felt I had to do since my team was in a semi-final match for the WPL. And this topic was suggested by a member of the team we are competing against this week I might add ;) No offense though as I could have come up any other week too :)
Anyway, after spending time I didn't have shooting all these images I was faced with either staying up all night to edit them together or abandoning the project- which I ultimately did. And I am frustrated! :P

So I wish there would be fewer of these Expert challenges and would also hope that they would be skipped over in future league play. I think it is sad when a "photography" competition becomes more about who has the most free time together with some editing skills rather than who can come up with the best photographs.

Just my two cents :)
12/16/2011 12:12:23 PM · #53
Originally posted by blindjustice:

I am not making a judgment, just an observation- because you don't want to stifle Gyaban and his fantastic artistic creations- which are at times so brilliant it makes you not want to try to compete...(among other users as well).
....


For that there's worth1000. Check it out. Edit away to your hearts content. The only difference is you're not limited to using your own photos. I enjoy seeing those artistic creations too and not at all envious as it's not something I aim for myself. It just seems out of place. The more they run these challenges the more I wonder what direction this site is heading. For those who say well we're afraid of a challenge. You don't remember the good ole days, with Scalvert, Kiwiness and Heida, to name a few, running about the site all at the same time ;)

Perhaps what's becoming of expert editing is beyond what was originally intended. I like many others feel they are running way too often. For a photography site you'd think we'd have more minimal editing ones. A mindset for minimal editing is different than one for expert editing. I prefer the earlier.

Message edited by author 2011-12-16 12:22:38.
12/16/2011 12:25:25 PM · #54
So much to say, so little time!

1. DPC is a challenge site. Although we do compete against each other, ultimately I am competing against myself, trying to improve.
2. the definition of photography is constantly evolving. Like any other type of art. "Purists" rebel against the latest technologies. "Pioneers" want to keep pushing the envelope. I adore ALL things having to do with my camera, and although I may prefer a particular type of photography, it is just personal preference. This does not mean that I want the entire site to be dedicated to MY type of photography.
3. creativity - I understand the frustration of not being able to do "x", and feeling outgunned by those with more skill or experience than me. Knowing people are better/know more inspires me, pushes me to learn, to improve. To ask "how did they do that", and see if I can learn, too. Even contact my site heroes, who have always been happy to share their knowledge. This is one of my favorite things about DPC.
4. As has been shown over and over again (even in this last challenge), it is not great editing which makes winning images, it is great images which have been edited well, regardless of the rule set.

All that being said, I wish there was more consideration put into the selection of challenge theme (recent clumpings or nature/trees/foliage/etc., and most recently heavy metal/metal), as well as rotation of rule sets. I adore expert editing but I would support it being applied to only one challenge per month.
12/16/2011 12:31:34 PM · #55
Originally posted by tanguera:

So much to say, so little time!

1. DPC is a challenge site. Although we do compete against each other, ultimately I am competing against myself, trying to improve.
2. the definition of photography is constantly evolving. Like any other type of art. "Purists" rebel against the latest technologies. "Pioneers" want to keep pushing the envelope. I adore ALL things having to do with my camera, and although I may prefer a particular type of photography, it is just personal preference. This does not mean that I want the entire site to be dedicated to MY type of photography.
3. creativity - I understand the frustration of not being able to do "x", and feeling outgunned by those with more skill or experience than me. Knowing people are better/know more inspires me, pushes me to learn, to improve. To ask "how did they do that", and see if I can learn, too. Even contact my site heroes, who have always been happy to share their knowledge. This is one of my favorite things about DPC.
4. As has been shown over and over again (even in this last challenge), it is not great editing which makes winning images, it is great images which have been edited well, regardless of the rule set.


+1
12/16/2011 12:33:15 PM · #56
What I like about expert editing is what I've learned doing these, it really motivates me to read some tut's and practice. I don't mind if we have one every week, but would like 2 weeks to work on these. I do find myself running out of time with just one week. Worth1000 is a terrific sorce for tut's. Just learning, I need more time.
12/16/2011 12:36:01 PM · #57
Originally posted by tanguera:

So much to say, so little time!

1. DPC is a challenge site. Although we do compete against each other, ultimately I am competing against myself, trying to improve.
2. the definition of photography is constantly evolving. Like any other type of art. "Purists" rebel against the latest technologies. "Pioneers" want to keep pushing the envelope. I adore ALL things having to do with my camera, and although I may prefer a particular type of photography, it is just personal preference. This does not mean that I want the entire site to be dedicated to MY type of photography.
3. creativity - I understand the frustration of not being able to do "x", and feeling outgunned by those with more skill or experience than me. Knowing people are better/know more inspires me, pushes me to learn, to improve. To ask "how did they do that", and see if I can learn, too. Even contact my site heroes, who have always been happy to share their knowledge. This is one of my favorite things about DPC.
4. As has been shown over and over again (even in this last challenge), it is not great editing which makes winning images, it is great images which have been edited well, regardless of the rule set.

All that being said, I wish there was more consideration put into the selection of challenge theme (recent clumpings or nature/trees/foliage/etc., and most recently heavy metal/metal), as well as rotation of rule sets. I adore expert editing but I would support it being applied to only one challenge per month.


+ another one
12/16/2011 12:36:38 PM · #58
Originally posted by Techo:

For a photography site you'd think we'd have more minimal editing ones. A mindset for minimal editing is different than one for expert editing. I prefer the earlier.


Editing is a vital part to digital photography. Even with minimal editing your camera is doing the processing, and you are hoping the results come out good. Basic and advanced take that control away from the camera and give it to you.

12/16/2011 12:38:34 PM · #59
One expert and one minimal per month, or at least as many minimal as expert, would be fair for all.
12/16/2011 12:52:20 PM · #60
Personally, I think that is way too many. The expert and minimal editing rules are extremes. As a result, these tend to bring out some of the greatest creativity from people. If you have too many, you end up saturating the viewers with many of the same type of editing.

In other words, the more rare it is, the better the "wow factor".

Originally posted by jagar:

One expert and one minimal per month, or at least as many minimal as expert, would be fair for all.
12/16/2011 01:26:11 PM · #61
Originally posted by lreynelsg:

+1
+1
12/16/2011 01:27:19 PM · #62
Originally posted by mike_311:

Originally posted by Techo:

For a photography site you'd think we'd have more minimal editing ones. A mindset for minimal editing is different than one for expert editing. I prefer the earlier.


Editing is a vital part to digital photography. Even with minimal editing your camera is doing the processing, and you are hoping the results come out good. Basic and advanced take that control away from the camera and give it to you.

I think Advanced, and even Basic, make you lazy when taking/composing the picture - ending up with so many lousy shots to discard afterwards...
12/16/2011 01:27:51 PM · #63
Originally posted by MAK:

I still enter them but tend to use an image that is only basic editing.
Some do OK and some suck.
Digital art creation has its place. I personally wish to concentrate on getting a desirable image direct out of the camera rather than spending hours creating art. I used to do a lot of HDR bit I have never had the talent to draw hence why I use a camera to express myself.

I say "enter them with a photograph if you cannot draw" that's what I do. It is not a photography challenge but it does accept photographs too


+1
12/16/2011 01:43:48 PM · #64
Originally posted by gg3rd:

Originally posted by mike_311:

Originally posted by Techo:

For a photography site you'd think we'd have more minimal editing ones. A mindset for minimal editing is different than one for expert editing. I prefer the earlier.


Editing is a vital part to digital photography. Even with minimal editing your camera is doing the processing, and you are hoping the results come out good. Basic and advanced take that control away from the camera and give it to you.

I think Advanced, and even Basic, make you lazy when taking/composing the picture - ending up with so many lousy shots to discard afterwards...


i agree i dont spend a lot of time composing a shot, i just shoot wide to crop in post but i still pay attention to lighting and detail. no amount of processing is going to make a just ok image great, but good editing will make a good image great.

if done properly advanced editing is a great way to control how your viewers eyes move along the image, but if you can do that in camera, more power to you.

Message edited by author 2011-12-16 13:44:15.
12/16/2011 02:29:03 PM · #65
Originally posted by gg3rd:


I think Advanced, and even Basic, make you lazy when taking/composing the picture - ending up with so many lousy shots to discard afterwards...


Surely thats just part and parcel of Digital Photography as a whole? I wouldn`t call it lazy, more `experimental` - most of my experimental stuff ends up in the reject pile - doesnt make me lazy.
12/16/2011 03:01:25 PM · #66
I for one am really grateful to DPC as a whole, and all of the rules set. In order to create the pictures I like, I have to be able to translate my ideas from my mind to the screen as accurately as possible: depending on the situation, sometimes the best tool to use is a camera with very few processing, sometimes heavier adjustments are necessary, and sometimes I even have to create things from scratch.

I am interested in learning and improving at all of these levels, simply because it gives me more control over the result I want to reach. Despite what some may think, I am not a great defender of post-processing. In fact I am convinced that if you can do it in real, it does look better. It's simply that under certain circumstances (for example, when a challenges requires you to depict creatures from the future that do not exist), doing it in real is out of my league. For instance, I find the creature from the "Alien" movies to look much much better when it is a sophisticated puppet, rather than when they use pure CGI. However, creating such puppet requires means and skills that I don't have. In such case, Photoshop is a fantastic answer.

What DPC has that other sites don't, is that is makes you practice all these skill at once. Worth1000.com has been quoted, but there, you either enter photography based challenges (with rules similar to basic and advanced sets), or you enter processing challenges where you use images of your choice that you collect on the Internet. DPC propose a much more interesting approach in my opinion, much more complete. Now that I think of it, the first time I used Photoshop layers was for the Mythical Creature challenge: it really opened me a whole new world of possibilities. I do believe this kind of exercise is a fantastic way of learning much things very quickly, which is also why I like expert editing challenges. I surely would be much less advanced in my learning quest without them.
12/16/2011 03:22:25 PM · #67
Originally posted by Simms:

Originally posted by gg3rd:


I think Advanced, and even Basic, make you lazy when taking/composing the picture - ending up with so many lousy shots to discard afterwards...


Surely thats just part and parcel of Digital Photography as a whole? I wouldn`t call it lazy, more `experimental` - most of my experimental stuff ends up in the reject pile - doesnt make me lazy.

Point taken - "less careful with details" would be more appropriate than "lazy".
And I'm all for experimenting and doing PP. I just think there should be more Minimal challenges, in par with Expert, as jagar mentioned few posts before...
12/16/2011 04:12:54 PM · #68
This might or might not help but I thought I'd share my opinion: I find it's alright to push the limits of creation up to the point where the person might remember or rather want to remember the image. Anything beyond that is questionable. That is to say, when the original image fails to be the focus and the dozens of layers start to create something entirely different, that's when it ceases to be a photograph and becomes something else.
12/16/2011 06:45:32 PM · #69
I do feel the current rate of one expert challenge out of three is way too much, one in a month as jagar suggested or even in two would suffice. I don't have a good argument for that, just my strong personal preference of "real life photography" over "digital art", and that DPC's putative objective is to promote photography rather than collage. I understand that we don't have to submit digital art in expert challenges, but as a matter of fact that's what can be expected to do well in them, with rare exceptions, so we are being pushed in that direction.
12/16/2011 06:53:17 PM · #70
Originally posted by jagar:

One expert and one minimal per month, or at least as many minimal as expert, would be fair for all.


Great suggestion.
12/16/2011 06:54:49 PM · #71
Originally posted by bspurgeon:

Originally posted by jagar:

One expert and one minimal per month, or at least as many minimal as expert, would be fair for all.

Great suggestion.

indeedy
12/16/2011 06:55:20 PM · #72
Originally posted by bspurgeon:

Originally posted by jagar:

One expert and one minimal per month, or at least as many minimal as expert, would be fair for all.


Great suggestion.

+1
12/16/2011 07:45:50 PM · #73
Originally posted by hahn23:

Originally posted by bspurgeon:

Originally posted by jagar:

One expert and one minimal per month, or at least as many minimal as expert, would be fair for all.


Great suggestion.

+1

One of each on a quarterly annual basis +10! Lol!
Actually I don't care for either ruleset as they are both usually very time consuming (minimal puts you into a scavenger hunt looking for the perfect scene without the slightest distraction anywhere in your frame). But I would sooner have more Minimal than Expert and I wouldn't even complain about Minimal that much if we could simply crop a little.
Neither are appropriate for league play in my opinion. Again it's the time element and especially Expert keeps some people from participating in leagues because they can't commit to such time consuming endeavors.
12/16/2011 07:47:21 PM · #74
Originally posted by jagar:

One expert and one minimal per month, or at least as many minimal as expert, would be fair for all.


got that right.
12/16/2011 08:01:00 PM · #75
At the moment there are 3 challenges in voting - one is Expert. There are 4 challenges open for submission, one is Expert. This doesn't seem too heavily weighted towards Expert to me.
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