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09/26/2011 10:33:35 PM · #126 |
 heavyj I don't feel like dragging this conversation.
You said:
suppose that is a matter of personal opinion. Watch a few documentaries on the death penalty, or on victims' families visiting their killers in jail. You'll find that a good majority of them feel they can move on with their lives because they have found it in themselves to forgive the killer. Those are strong people and those people will never forget the lose they suffered but will continue on with life.
Are you talking about the ones that find the God? so the family goes and prays with the murderer? You call them strong, I call them spineless and religious freaks > this sums up the difference (can you tell I'm not religious?)
you asked:
What would you do if you lost your loved one to a death penalty case knowing he/she was innocent and they later evidence came forward of it? Are you still happy that the death penalty is in place? Is your loved ones life a 'good' sacrifice so that the majority of people you think should die (death row inmates) will die?
we agree that system is broken, innocent should not even be in that situation. and I see little difference with innocent loved one in prison for 20-30 years and death...Compensation? really? that makes it ok?
I never said I'm happy we have death penalty. I wish there is no need for it, I wish no crimes that would warrant such a punishment.
Death penalty should not be easy thing to throw at someone...but in case of murder for entertainment, fun, pleasure....when there is no doubt who is the perpetrator.
Judicial system needs fixing < that is the problem, not the punishment .
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09/26/2011 11:38:30 PM · #127 |
I'm talking about the ones who have always had faith in God and believe that God never puts too much in their lives they can't handle. Calling a person who finds God a spineless freak is bigotry. If you find means other than religion to deal with the problems you have in your life then that's good for you, but I wouldn't call you a spineless freak for that difference.
Still, you haven't answered the question. Are you willing to sacrifice your loved one to the chair of an imperfect system in order to perfect it sometime down the line so that only inmates convicted are without a doubt, 100 percent guilty?
It's the same problem I have with politicians who propose we go to war but have never been to war or have no children or loved ones in the military who will go to war to fully understand what they are committing their country's troops and families too. Once you have seen it, been through it, understand it, perhaps your views will change.
There will always be murderers and rapists and worse. The death penalty is not a deterrent and the state of Texas is a good example. When people are caught killing for entertainment you have to wondering how it is they became that person.
Would you ride an airline that guarantees 100 percent safety to your destination after finding out that due to lack in management, costs were cut and crashes have occurred? Doubt it. You'd want everything on hold until those imperfections were taken care of and then start using the airline again. Until then, it's bus, train or car...and even then, you're not guaranteed arriving at your destination. |
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09/26/2011 11:55:54 PM · #128 |
[quote=heavyj] I'm talking about the ones who have always had faith in God and believe that God never puts too much in their lives they can't handle. Calling a person who finds God a spineless freak is bigotry. If you find means other than religion to deal with the problems you have in your life then that's good for you, but I wouldn't call you a spineless freak for that difference.
Still, you haven't answered the question. Are you willing to sacrifice your loved one to the chair of an imperfect system in order to perfect it sometime down the line so that only inmates convicted are without a doubt, 100 percent guilty?
It's the same problem I have with politicians who propose we go to war but have never been to war or have no children or loved ones in the military who will go to war to fully understand what they are committing their country's troops and families too. Once you have seen it, been through it, understand it, perhaps your views will change.
There will always be murderers and rapists and worse. The death penalty is not a deterrent and the state of Texas is a good example. When people are caught killing for entertainment you have to wondering how it is they became that person.
Would you ride an airline that guarantees 100 percent safety to your destination after finding out that due to lack in management, costs were cut and crashes have occurred? Doubt it. You'd want everything on hold until those imperfections were taken care of and then start using the airline again. Until then, it's bus, train or car...and even then, you're not guaranteed arriving at your destination. [/quote
Don't wanna change this to a religion/bigotry , as Im sure you and I will clash on this in some other rant tread.
I did answer your question about loved one ...I see no difference between death and 20 years in prison...One would not make me feel better than other.
talking about documentaries. have you seen the one where the brutal rape victims have to go in front of parole board and explain why they should not let the rapist out every time he comes up for parole? |
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09/27/2011 12:00:17 AM · #129 |
| since you mentioned the War...I know what war is about, way to well..seen them and been a part of them on a couple continents ..they are all the same. |
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09/27/2011 01:26:47 AM · #130 |
| You see no difference...it's hard to believe. The anger one would feel after spending 30 years in prison and then freed would be great, but so would the joy of finally being set free, enjoying the company of family and friends again. Death is permanent, so there won't be much joy to have if your loved one is later found not guilty but has already gone to the chair. In fact, I would guess there would be more anger. |
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09/27/2011 07:41:38 AM · #131 |
Originally posted by heavyj:
You see no difference...it's hard to believe. The anger one would feel after spending 30 years in prison and then freed would be great, but so would the joy of finally being set free, enjoying the company of family and friends again. Death is permanent, so there won't be much joy to have if your loved one is later found not guilty but has already gone to the chair. In fact, I would guess there would be more anger. |
You Sir better pray never to find out what You would feel in that situation. However you do make it sound romantic...anger, great feeling, joy...Freedom... I guess i'm non romantic bigot. |
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09/27/2011 09:12:10 AM · #132 |
Originally posted by heavyj:
You see no difference...it's hard to believe. The anger one would feel after spending 30 years in prison and then freed would be great, but so would the joy of finally being set free, enjoying the company of family and friends again. Death is permanent, so there won't be much joy to have if your loved one is later found not guilty but has already gone to the chair. In fact, I would guess there would be more anger. |
I have a friend who was exonerated after serving 12 years of a 150-300 year sentence. (prosecutorial misconduct)
There was anger, yes. There was joy, yes. But there was also depression, anxiety, paranoia and a host of other mental issues to deal with. To this day (11 years later) if she hears a cell door slam on TV she has a panic attack. She would love to work with prisoners, but cannot bring herself to walk inside a jail/prison. She told me, "I'm afraid somebody would mess up again and lock me up and not let me out." Irrational? yes. Real? yes.
My point is that when someone is convicted wrongly, it is not as black and white as "you're in jail and now you're free." There is a LOT of baggage that goes with it -- for perhaps the rest of your life.
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09/27/2011 09:15:58 AM · #133 |
Originally posted by karmat:
Originally posted by heavyj:
You see no difference...it's hard to believe. The anger one would feel after spending 30 years in prison and then freed would be great, but so would the joy of finally being set free, enjoying the company of family and friends again. Death is permanent, so there won't be much joy to have if your loved one is later found not guilty but has already gone to the chair. In fact, I would guess there would be more anger. |
I have a friend who was exonerated after serving 12 years of a 150-300 year sentence. (prosecutorial misconduct)
There was anger, yes. There was joy, yes. But there was also depression, anxiety, paranoia and a host of other mental issues to deal with. To this day (11 years later) if she hears a cell door slam on TV she has a panic attack. She would love to work with prisoners, but cannot bring herself to walk inside a jail/prison. She told me, "I'm afraid somebody would mess up again and lock me up and not let me out." Irrational? yes. Real? yes.
My point is that when someone is convicted wrongly, it is not as black and white as "you're in jail and now you're free." There is a LOT of baggage that goes with it -- for perhaps the rest of your life. |
But I think his point is, if what Basta is proposing (a swift death penalty without appeals) and your friend would have gotten a death sentence, she would have been dead long before she was set free. She may be dealing with issues now, but it's better than being dead and then being exonerated. |
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09/27/2011 10:30:14 AM · #134 |
Originally posted by Kelli:
She may be dealing with issues now, but it's better than being dead and then being exonerated. |
Says you anyway. |
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09/27/2011 10:38:20 AM · #135 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
First off, those opposed to capital punishment are typically excluded from serving on those juries. And in virtually every case, the alternative to the death penalty is life without the possibility of parole, not getting out in "a couple of years." |
Charles Manson and other members of the "Manson Family" are eligible for parole every so often. The murders they committed were about as horrific as they come. Every time one of them, or the perpetrators of other violent crimes, are eligible for parole, the victims (or relatives of the victims) have to rip the scars and scabs off of those wounds and relive their experience for the parole boards to remind them why these monsters should never go free. Why should they even be allowed life?
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09/27/2011 10:41:15 AM · #136 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by heavyj:
For those who talk about money, how much it costs to house criminals vs death row...sorry, but I don't think budgets should determine whether or not we send people to the chair. |
In California at least, it costs more to process a capital case to its conclusion than to house a prisoner for life without parole.
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It wouldn't if they didn't wait decades to get the job done. |
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09/27/2011 11:03:52 AM · #137 |
Originally posted by Kelli:
She may be dealing with issues now, but it's better than being dead and then being exonerated. |
Seeing as how one of those issues was being suicidal (at different times), I'll take your word for it.
eta -- i kinda understand the sentiment - better a screwed up life than no life.
but for the family and convicted, it shouldn't have to be a choice.
I use to be pro-capital punishment. No arguments.
Then, as I grew and evaluated some of my other views, I began to see an inconsistency. I don't want to bring up another can of worms in this thread, but suffice it to say that life is life. The system is not perfect, but the imperfections should not be a life or death matter to some.
Message edited by author 2011-09-27 11:10:58. |
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09/27/2011 11:24:02 AM · #138 |
Originally posted by karmat:
The system is not perfect, but the imperfections should not be a life or death matter to some. |
But it is. And until there is some perfect way to test guilt/innocence the death penalty should be done away with. There may be some monsters who truly deserve it, but it's not worth even one innocent person's life. |
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09/27/2011 11:36:45 AM · #139 |
Originally posted by Kelli:
And until there is some perfect way to test guilt/innocence the death penalty should be done away with. |
Implying that if there was a perfect test for guilt/innocence the death penalty would be acceptable?
Great. With a 'perfect test' in place, we could have instant RoboCop-style executions. But why not go all the way, a la Minority Report, and execute the killer before the crime? |
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09/27/2011 11:45:00 AM · #140 |
Originally posted by karmat:
The system is not perfect, but the imperfections should not be a life or death matter to some. |
The rest of life is imperfect too. |
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09/27/2011 11:45:15 AM · #141 |
Originally posted by Kelli:
Originally posted by karmat:
The system is not perfect, but the imperfections should not be a life or death matter to some. |
But it is. And until there is some perfect way to test guilt/innocence the death penalty should be done away with. There may be some monsters who truly deserve it, but it's not worth even one innocent person's life. |
I agree
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09/27/2011 11:49:07 AM · #142 |
Originally posted by karmat:
Originally posted by Kelli:
Originally posted by karmat:
The system is not perfect, but the imperfections should not be a life or death matter to some. |
But it is. And until there is some perfect way to test guilt/innocence the death penalty should be done away with. There may be some monsters who truly deserve it, but it's not worth even one innocent person's life. |
I agree |
Let's not fly on an airplane or drive in a car because they're imperfect and because of that, people die. Or any number of things that aren't perfect and can cause people to die. Plastic surgery, medicine, etc. |
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09/27/2011 12:21:36 PM · #143 |
Originally posted by Spork99:
Originally posted by karmat:
Originally posted by Kelli:
Originally posted by karmat:
The system is not perfect, but the imperfections should not be a life or death matter to some. |
But it is. And until there is some perfect way to test guilt/innocence the death penalty should be done away with. There may be some monsters who truly deserve it, but it's not worth even one innocent person's life. |
I agree |
Let's not fly on an airplane or drive in a car because they're imperfect and because of that, people die. Or any number of things that aren't perfect and can cause people to die. Plastic surgery, medicine, etc. |
Acquainting an accident with purposefully sticking a needle in someones arm to end their life is a big stretch. |
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09/27/2011 12:24:15 PM · #144 |
Originally posted by Kelli:
Originally posted by Spork99:
Originally posted by karmat:
Originally posted by Kelli:
Originally posted by karmat:
The system is not perfect, but the imperfections should not be a life or death matter to some. |
But it is. And until there is some perfect way to test guilt/innocence the death penalty should be done away with. There may be some monsters who truly deserve it, but it's not worth even one innocent person's life. |
I agree |
Let's not fly on an airplane or drive in a car because they're imperfect and because of that, people die. Or any number of things that aren't perfect and can cause people to die. Plastic surgery, medicine, etc. |
Acquainting an accident with purposefully sticking a needle in someones arm to end their life is a big stretch. |
Not at all. Both are deaths caused by imperfections in the world. |
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09/27/2011 12:30:49 PM · #145 |
Originally posted by Spork99:
Originally posted by karmat:
Originally posted by Kelli:
Originally posted by karmat:
The system is not perfect, but the imperfections should not be a life or death matter to some. |
But it is. And until there is some perfect way to test guilt/innocence the death penalty should be done away with. There may be some monsters who truly deserve it, but it's not worth even one innocent person's life. |
I agree |
Let's not fly on an airplane or drive in a car because they're imperfect and because of that, people die. Or any number of things that aren't perfect and can cause people to die. Plastic surgery, medicine, etc. |
lols, here here, Maximilien François Marie Isidore de Robespierre, lols |
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09/27/2011 01:12:36 PM · #146 |
Originally posted by TheDruid:
Originally posted by Spork99:
Originally posted by karmat:
Originally posted by Kelli:
Originally posted by karmat:
The system is not perfect, but the imperfections should not be a life or death matter to some. |
But it is. And until there is some perfect way to test guilt/innocence the death penalty should be done away with. There may be some monsters who truly deserve it, but it's not worth even one innocent person's life. |
I agree |
Let's not fly on an airplane or drive in a car because they're imperfect and because of that, people die. Or any number of things that aren't perfect and can cause people to die. Plastic surgery, medicine, etc. |
lols, here here, Maximilien François Marie Isidore de Robespierre, lols |
Casse-toi! |
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09/27/2011 01:27:47 PM · #147 |
Originally posted by Spork99:
Originally posted by Kelli:
Originally posted by Spork99:
Originally posted by karmat:
Originally posted by Kelli:
Originally posted by karmat:
The system is not perfect, but the imperfections should not be a life or death matter to some. |
But it is. And until there is some perfect way to test guilt/innocence the death penalty should be done away with. There may be some monsters who truly deserve it, but it's not worth even one innocent person's life. |
I agree |
Let's not fly on an airplane or drive in a car because they're imperfect and because of that, people die. Or any number of things that aren't perfect and can cause people to die. Plastic surgery, medicine, etc. |
Acquainting an accident with purposefully sticking a needle in someones arm to end their life is a big stretch. |
Not at all. Both are deaths caused by imperfections in the world. |
The difference you are missing is the implied consent given by someone flying a plane or having surgery who knows there is a risk (however small). Such consent is missing when the innocent are prosecuted and this is an important difference.
Would you be willing to give your life up so the system can be continued? I don't think I would. |
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09/27/2011 01:29:08 PM · #148 |
Reminds me a bit of
"Kill them all, let God sort them out".
"Caedite eos! Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius" Papal legate Arnaud-Amaury, August 1209
Better that innocents are slaughtered than to allow the guilty to walk free? |
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09/27/2011 01:41:47 PM · #149 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by Spork99:
Originally posted by Kelli:
Originally posted by Spork99:
Originally posted by karmat:
Originally posted by Kelli:
Originally posted by karmat:
The system is not perfect, but the imperfections should not be a life or death matter to some. |
But it is. And until there is some perfect way to test guilt/innocence the death penalty should be done away with. There may be some monsters who truly deserve it, but it's not worth even one innocent person's life. |
I agree |
Let's not fly on an airplane or drive in a car because they're imperfect and because of that, people die. Or any number of things that aren't perfect and can cause people to die. Plastic surgery, medicine, etc. |
Acquainting an accident with purposefully sticking a needle in someones arm to end their life is a big stretch. |
Not at all. Both are deaths caused by imperfections in the world. |
The difference you are missing is the implied consent given by someone flying a plane or having surgery who knows there is a risk (however small). Such consent is missing when the innocent are prosecuted and this is an important difference.
Would you be willing to give your life up so the system can be continued? I don't think I would. |
By living in this society, you give consent to be judged by the legal system, as imperfect as it is. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be improved upon like any other construct of society, but you do give consent. |
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09/27/2011 01:49:35 PM · #150 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
Reminds me a bit of
"Kill them all, let God sort them out".
"Caedite eos! Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius" Papal legate Arnaud-Amaury, August 1209
Better that innocents are slaughtered than to allow the guilty to walk free? |
Not at all. The fact is that people set the standard of acceptability at perfection, nothing any system made by man can ever achieve.
Is it better that 45,000 innocents die every year than to make people walk?
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