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04/03/2004 05:49:39 PM · #51 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
And instead of declaring how "dull/ boring/ badly taken" a photo is, you could perhaps suggest a different perspective or crop, or returning when the light is better, or a different version of the subject. |
but how often does that REALLY happen?
i mean, it's not like a badly composed or poorly cropped photograph is all that rare on this site, and for me to comment on everything i see that i think needs help is completely unrealistic.
my point is that it takes FOREVER to wade through 300 or so photos for JUST ONE challenge, let alone leave comments. and if we think we can just leave things alone, let the number of entries escalate, and expect a influx of exciting and helpful critiques, we're fooling ourselves.
the critique club was established to help give some more in-depth help on random photos. whether it's helped or not, i can't say. but it was created, what? a year ago? and even back then we realized the need for some more individual attention to photos.
there are plenty of photos that were obvious attempts to meet the challenge and end up needing some technical advice or help. i have absolutely no problem with those. BUT with the increase of our notoriety, and the low price point that olyuzi mentioned, there has been a noticeable influx of photos that were submitted just to submit. that's a problem, and it's something that we need to figure out how to deal with very soon.
i've often said in chat that the price for dpc was too low. come after me with pitchforks and torches if you want, but if people have to pay to enter the challenges i think they might think twice before signing up. this has nothing to do with beginner vs. expert: it's more about people who are really trying vs. people who aren't.
personally, i'm done with the open challenges. some are almost painful to vote on. i know that i am not the only person who feels that way. so if the open challenges continue downward the way they have, and more "veteran" people stop participating in them, then there's really very little value left. that's unfortunate, and that's why i think things need to change. |
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04/03/2004 06:01:54 PM · #52 |
Gordon, I'm beginning to understand why I don't like the way you would remake dpc. I think it is because your experience here is not typical of the majority of us.
Originally posted by Gordon:
I'm basing it on having looked at a lot of the bottom end scores and comments. |
I have never done that and have never heard of anyone else doing that.
I have never given nor received the "dull/ boring/ badly taken" or "sucks" comments you seem to think are so common. I've heard about them in the forums but suspect you believe they happen more often than is the case.
Originally posted by Gordon:
I don't believe I ever learned anything useful or insightful that significantly improved my photography...(from comments) |
I think most of us are in the opposite camp, feeling we have learned a lot from comments, especially when we were very new to dpc.
Originally posted by Gordon:
The comments they all get in the first few days just get repeated over and over.
1/ repeating the obvious
2/ repeating the obvious
or
3/ repeating the obvious
Once or twice is quite possibly enough ? |
Repeating the obvious is useful when it is something that was not apparent to the person who entered. Repetition is a recognized aspect of teaching and learning. If you get the same criticism from several people you are more likely to take it seriously when it goes against your own instincts.
You have a great deal of technical knowledge and your willingness to share it is a blessing to the dpc community. But you seem to have missed out on some of the things most of us encounter while learning our way here. |
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04/03/2004 06:16:11 PM · #53 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
Gordon, I'm beginning to understand why I don't like the way you would remake dpc. I think it is because your experience here is not typical of the majority of us.
Originally posted by Gordon:
I'm basing it on having looked at a lot of the bottom end scores and comments. |
I have never done that and have never heard of anyone else doing that. |
I suggest you do then - after all, those are the images that are being discussed now - not the ones in the middle of the pack.
Lets phrase the question a different way then - how would you propose dealing with 1000 images per challenge ? DPC has to change to cope with that - it is has been slipping in comment density and quality steadily for the 2 years I've been here.
What way would you encourage more useful, helpful and generally meaningful comments ? Though I'll say it again - like I've said half a dozen times in this thread - show me some low scoring pictures that have useful comments that are not just saying the obvious.
It is easy to say let's just leave it the way it is, but I doubt that is the best way forward for dpc.
Message edited by author 2004-04-03 18:38:03. |
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04/03/2004 06:50:38 PM · #54 |
I made a suggestion on dealing with too many entries earlier in this thread. And I am on record in favor of returning to comments being anonymous until the end of voting; I think that would encourage people to comment more, and more honestly. There have been several people say in these forums that they would curtail their comments due to irresponsible replies.
As for 1000 entries, it hasn't happened yet. I believe the current design of the voting system with it's 20% minimum and no maximum is capable of handling larger fields than we have now. It becomes increasingly difficult to vote on/comment on all the entries but that does not seriously comprise the integrity of the challenge, nor detract from the individual persons dpc experience. |
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04/03/2004 07:15:55 PM · #55 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
I made a suggestion on dealing with too many entries earlier in this thread. |
Your suggestion for dealing with too many entries was to encourage more entries though. I guess I don't understand that approach.
As to concerns about hearing people say in the forums that they won't comment, I can only quote yourself back to you
I have never given nor received the "dull/ boring/ badly taken" or "sucks" comments you seem to think are so common. I've heard about them in the forums but suspect you believe they happen more often than is the case.
In otherwords, I think we hear more complaints about it than is actually representative. I've had a lot of positive feedback through PMs and it has never once stopped me from commenting. The images I felt I would comment negatively upon would need a whole lot more feedback than could usefully be given anonymously or not in a comment field like provided for DPC. It might be worth revisiting the lengthy discussions that were had when we originally removed anonymous commenting because of the problems that were introduced. Those are all still in the archives.
Several people have mentioned the Critique club - that was giving great, considered feedback - I'd rather see that improved and more focused on the lower scoring images - if we believe it really is supposed to be an educational site for the lower end and a competition at the higher end - why not focus on it more and do something active about it ?
Message edited by author 2004-04-04 15:52:03. |
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04/04/2004 12:18:10 AM · #56 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
Several people have mentioned the Critique club - that was giving great, considered feedback - I'd rather see that improved and more focused on the lower scoring images - if we believe it really is supposed to be an educational site for the lower end and a competition at the higher end - why not focus on it more and do something active about it ? |
What if the Critique Club, instead of critiques photos for people who check the box to have an in depth critique done, were to take the bottom 10, 15, 20 or whatever photos and give a good solid critique along with suggestions to improve the photos.
Maybe then limit the number of comments a photo can receive during the voting to 5 or 10 comments...maybe this would encourage folks to comment on other photos once a few meet the comment max...kind of a spread the wealth approach.
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04/04/2004 06:24:10 AM · #57 |
Yeah this is a fun site! Hard to believe it growing.. Word of mouth and such heck most of us here has probably even gotten family into it if not friends... My dad, husband, 13 year old daughter, are registered wont be long before they could be members too. I like how everyone here is helpfull and personable or willing to meet for group activities and trips, its great to be able to meet new friends here and its like a second home or family, cause the welcome is there.
I just had to major surgeries along with birth of baby and yeah its hard to vote and comment on the 20%
defanetly need to change soon,,,,, some of my votes didnt count cause i couldnt finish the 20% and dialup not to mention its just nice to take time to see and study pics. for that matter I have had to skip some challenges this month I like the ones like March free study take a month to create pics gives more time,,, a variety of more challenges would be fun...
Hey sooner or later this site is bound to get noticed by the companies and manufactures of cameras we use it be cool to see them honor this site and thier consumers by sponsoring or giving samples and prizes......
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04/04/2004 01:47:04 PM · #58 |
What about an option for people after the first 24 hours to remove their picture.
Suppose I take a picture, get it just under the wire and think it is pretty good. I get the first day or two of scores, and more importantly a couple of comments about what people don't like. Then I have the ability to remove my own picture from further judging.
This idea is based on a couple of assumptions
1) People would voluntarily remove their pictures having already gotten the feedback they were looking for before the week was out.
2) The pictures people would tend to remove would be ones in the lower 75% of the scores.
3) Hopefully people would give constructive comments to the less then perfect pictures/photographers instead of the just "I don't like it" type.
3a)These comments would help people take better pictures.
3b) People would be more willing to have their pictures removed from voting once they got constructive feedback on how to improve.
This makes several assumptions but there have been times I have tried something new, not sure how much I liked it, but the 3ish score pretty early on told me that the experiment was not successful. I would have been happy to remove it from further voting if there had been a way that it was possible for me to do so.
I like the volunteer aspect in that it encourages people to post constructive comments on how people (who are still at the beginning stages of learning) on how to improve their photographs, without just removing them. |
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04/04/2004 02:03:18 PM · #59 |
| Allowing people to remove an entry after they get a reading on how well it will do nullifies the Average Vote Received statistic. |
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04/05/2004 09:32:56 AM · #60 |
bumpity bump
this thread got lots of traffic over the weekend, but i thought it was important enough for the weekday people to see too.
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