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07/13/2011 06:01:02 AM · #1 |
This is a long story but I'll shorten it:
Father's side of the family has a large amount of land on the east coast of Canada. This land has been in our family for several generations. My grandfather built a cottage on this land. The cottage was THE place to be for our family when things were happening. I have 2 uncles and 1 aunt. My father moved with us all over Canada so we weren't always around but when we were it was memorable. It was always referred to as THE cottage.
My aunt had power of attorney. It made sense. She was there most often and made sure their finances were always in order. My youngest uncle lived closest. He was there often to help fix things up. He's the guy you go to to fix all your car troubles, electrical troubles...everything. When we were on that side of the country, my father was their tax man. My father was the oldest in the family and, as tradition would go, he would get the land etc. Everything was always passed onto the eldest son or the eldest of that son etc. Unfortunately, my father died. However, before dieing he had always said "Why would I want ownership over this land when I probably will only use it once every couple of years. It's best to make it the responsibility of all those who are going to use it."
My grandfather died. My grandmother decided to move back into the city. NOW...enter Uncle X. He now has a family as well, he, like my father, had lived here and there. Good jobs, good living. He had convinced my grandmother to sign power of attorney over to him. His reason was 'I make more money than aunt Y and uncle Y.' and so he can pay the property taxes. Bad excuse. When my grandmother died, it was then discovered that power of attorney had been signed over to him.
My mother, aunt and uncle Y were not pleased with this. However, so long as the cottage was in the family and the use of it remained the same as it always did, there shouldn't be any issues. HOWEVER, uncle X is playing dirty. Uncle Y had said "I'm going to the cottage to spend time with my kids. I just wanted to let you know because I'm trying to bond and don't want to be bothered so if you have plans then I'll plan around that" Uncle X said "There was a storm that hit and there was damaged done to the cottage and I've got people working on it this weekend so you can't go." OK...so instead my uncle Y went to a friends cottage, nearby the family cottage. He walked over to see the 'damage' and saw nothing. He saw not workers. He has a key, as do all of our family members. He went inside and saw that all the family photos, of all the different family members down the family tree were gone and replaced with photos of Uncle X's family. The cottage had lots of stuff that belonged to lots of different family members and it all seemed to be gone. So, a second call "I saw that everything is missing from the cottage." The response was Uncle X accusing Uncle Y of breaking and entering.
A check with a letter from a lawyer came in the mail to my mother. It was for X amount of money (Apparently the amount of money in my grandparents bank account divided by 4). The letter said that everyone would be getting an even amount BUT that uncle X would also be getting the property. Nobody is signing anything now. My aunt who took care of my grandparents finances for years says that even with the assisted living there was far much more money in the account than what was being handed out. This isn't about money, but it is about not being taken advantage of.
What's really sad about all this is that uncle X thinks he's going to create this wonderful family life around the cottage just like my grandparents and that his kids are going to have the wonderful experiences we had. Unfortunately, with everything that's happened, he has no family to share it with. His kids won't have any aunts and uncles to have BBQ's and Christmases with.
Anyways, I don't know what the laws are in Canada. I know that my other aunt and uncle have lawyers. It's all very aggravating and I wish it would just end.
Anybody have an advice?
ETA: That was the short version...the long version is LONG! |
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07/13/2011 08:44:19 AM · #2 |
| Once the lawyers get involved in stuff like this...no one really "wins". |
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07/13/2011 09:02:34 AM · #3 |
| I'm no lawyer, and I don't live in Canada, but went through a somewhat similar situation with a drug addicted uncle and his scheming wife. At least your uncle waited for your grandparents to die. Mine threw my grandmother out of her family home of 50 years after getting the house signed over for $1 on the promise they'd take care of her the rest of her life. Took out a 200k equity loan, blew through the money, got foreclosed on. What a mess. My grandmother spent the last year of her life miserable, crying, depressed. I thought he got his in the end when the wife left (and got cancer), his kids refused to speak to him, he got a drug conviction and ended up in a welfare motel room. But the story just goes on and on. And he's doing just great now. So much for Karma. I'll tell you what the lawyer I spoke to said at the time, you can sue for elder abuse/fraud and try to get the POA reversed, but it will be very costly and there are no guarantees (and of course I'm in the US, not Canada). |
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07/13/2011 09:18:03 AM · #4 |
| I never thought my family would have this kind of issue. It's just sad that one person can ruin it for so many others...and he has no excuses. |
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07/13/2011 12:06:56 PM · #5 |
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07/13/2011 12:09:20 PM · #6 |
| I'm not a lawyer but I would expect power of attorney would cease when your grandmother died. It would then be up to the executor of the will? |
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07/13/2011 12:12:53 PM · #7 |
Originally posted by DJWoodward:
I'm not a lawyer but I would expect power of attorney would cease when your grandmother died. It would then be up to the executor of the will? |
I don't know. My grandmother was still alive at the time, and we weren't dealing with a POA, just an illegal transfer of property. |
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07/13/2011 12:17:43 PM · #8 |
Originally posted by Kelli:
Originally posted by DJWoodward:
I'm not a lawyer but I would expect power of attorney would cease when your grandmother died. It would then be up to the executor of the will? |
I don't know. My grandmother was still alive at the time, and we weren't dealing with a POA, just an illegal transfer of property. |
Actually I was directing my question to  heavyj:-) But I can see that your situation would have been quite different.
Message edited by author 2011-07-13 12:17:56. |
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07/13/2011 12:21:02 PM · #9 |
| Power of attorney comes with powers and obligations. It is not a carte blance to take what you want. How the property is supposed to be disposed of is dependent on the wording of the will. |
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07/13/2011 12:28:36 PM · #10 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
Power of attorney comes with powers and obligations. It is not a carte blance to take what you want. How the property is supposed to be disposed of is dependent on the wording of the will. |
Yep, that's why asked if there was a will. If there wasn't I'm sure it becomes a bit more complicated but I still wouldn't expect that any one party could just make claim to the property unilaterally. If there was a will and Uncle X was the executor I would think he would be legally bound to execute the will to the best of his ability.
Message edited by author 2011-07-13 12:28:56. |
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07/13/2011 01:15:34 PM · #11 |
| Some lawyer in Canada just peed his pants... |
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07/13/2011 01:33:19 PM · #12 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Some lawyer in Canada just peed his pants... |
That wasn't pee. |
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07/13/2011 02:38:19 PM · #13 |
Originally posted by Spork99:
Once the lawyers get involved in stuff like this...no one really "wins". |
Looks like if people got Advice from lawyers, early enough, it wouldn't be a problem. (We don't say, I need surgery, and because there are Doctors involved, no one wins, now do we?) People have disputes- they need to be rationally and predictably settled.
I am a lawyer, not a probate lawyer, and not Canadian, so My post may not be worth much... but this does sound like a law school trusts and estates exam fact pattern...
As a general rule, Power of Attorney is not effective upon death, thats where the probate system comes in. If the property was legally left as part of a Proper will to one Uncle, or that is the situation on its face, the way to go about it is to challenge the will. You can also get a better accounting of the money left in probate.
I guess this situation is a stellar example of the paraphrased maxim- "just because you have the right to do something, doesn't make what you did right"
good luck
Message edited by author 2011-07-13 14:39:24. |
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07/13/2011 03:43:51 PM · #14 |
Originally posted by blindjustice:
Originally posted by Spork99:
Once the lawyers get involved in stuff like this...no one really "wins". |
Looks like if people got Advice from lawyers, early enough, it wouldn't be a problem. (We don't say, I need surgery, and because there are Doctors involved, no one wins, now do we?) People have disputes- they need to be rationally and predictably settled.
I am a lawyer, not a probate lawyer, and not Canadian, so My post may not be worth much... but this does sound like a law school trusts and estates exam fact pattern...
As a general rule, Power of Attorney is not effective upon death, thats where the probate system comes in. If the property was legally left as part of a Proper will to one Uncle, or that is the situation on its face, the way to go about it is to challenge the will. You can also get a better accounting of the money left in probate.
I guess this situation is a stellar example of the paraphrased maxim- "just because you have the right to do something, doesn't make what you did right"
good luck |
I think you missed my point. I wasn't taking a dig at lawyers, more at the fact that once a situation like this is allowed to start in a family and the parties involved can't act like decent human beings and it gets to the point that family members bring in lawyers to settle the dispute, the situation is headed downhill. Even if the dispute is quickly addressed, there will always be resentment and tension between the family members involved.
"Oh, I remember when Uncle X was being a D-Bag about the cottage and I spent $5000 for a lawyer to get him straightened out and we still wound up having to sell the place...I hate that rotten SOB"
Message edited by author 2011-07-13 15:47:18. |
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07/13/2011 04:06:46 PM · #15 |
Originally posted by Spork99:
Originally posted by blindjustice:
Originally posted by Spork99:
Once the lawyers get involved in stuff like this...no one really "wins". |
Looks like if people got Advice from lawyers, early enough, it wouldn't be a problem. (We don't say, I need surgery, and because there are Doctors involved, no one wins, now do we?) People have disputes- they need to be rationally and predictably settled.
I am a lawyer, not a probate lawyer, and not Canadian, so My post may not be worth much... but this does sound like a law school trusts and estates exam fact pattern...
As a general rule, Power of Attorney is not effective upon death, thats where the probate system comes in. If the property was legally left as part of a Proper will to one Uncle, or that is the situation on its face, the way to go about it is to challenge the will. You can also get a better accounting of the money left in probate.
I guess this situation is a stellar example of the paraphrased maxim- "just because you have the right to do something, doesn't make what you did right"
good luck |
I think you missed my point. I wasn't taking a dig at lawyers, more at the fact that once a situation like this is allowed to start in a family and the parties involved can't act like decent human beings and it gets to the point that family members bring in lawyers to settle the dispute, the situation is headed downhill. Even if the dispute is quickly addressed, there will always be resentment and tension between the family members involved.
"Oh, I remember when Uncle X was being a D-Bag about the cottage and I spent $5000 for a lawyer to get him straightened out and we still wound up having to sell the place...I hate that rotten SOB" |
Understood. Its true though, I will agree that in a divorce nobody really wins, except the lawyer on retainer billing for tens of thousands. |
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07/13/2011 04:53:17 PM · #16 |
Since I can't offer any advice, just sympathy, for your sitation. I will offer a bit of comedic relief.
After all, we all win when divorces like this are televised. |
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07/14/2011 08:56:06 AM · #17 |
Originally posted by adigitalromance:
Since I can't offer any advice, just sympathy, for your sitation. I will offer a bit of comedic relief.
After all, we all win when divorces like this are televised. |
fantastically righteous
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