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03/30/2011 12:14:20 PM · #1 |
I don't know whether it's just because I'm quite inexperienced (been into photograpy for about 8 months), but I just can't seem to judge my photos at all.
I have an image in a challenge at the moment that I thought would do 'alright', but it's currently sitting at a 4.9 and I never thought it would score that low.
I'm not sure whether I'm still at the stage of having an SLR for 3 months and still being wowed by the DOF or effects you can get which you can't get on a P&S, but I don't know.
So yeh, how can you judge your photos and decide if they will do well in a challenge or not?
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03/30/2011 12:21:08 PM · #2 |
| experience. Plain and simple. There's no substitute for it. Really look at the challenges after the fact, and find out what did better than yours, and see if you can figure out why. Looking at the competition helps you realize what's lacking in your own. That's why these challenges are nice. Free studies don't tell you much, but when everyone is shooting the same types of things, you can see what types of things are successful and what types are not. |
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03/30/2011 12:26:36 PM · #3 |
| Wendy is perfectly right. I add that you should not be hanged up about the marks you get but more about the comments. You'll be surprised that on occasion you'll appreciate photos that are marked very poorly. |
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03/30/2011 12:40:25 PM · #4 |
It doesn't help that success at DPC and in the real world aren't the same thing. Some of my best-selling stock photos scored very poorly here, and I've seen photos for sale in galleries for a lot of money that I know wouldn't do well in a DPC challenge.
FWIW I've been here almost since DPC started and I still can't judge my own photos. |
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03/30/2011 12:47:50 PM · #5 |
From another perspective, you might want to look at 'success' from a different angle. The first and most important aspect of the photo should be whether or not YOU are completely and totally happy with it. From your original post:
"I have an image in a challenge at the moment that I thought would do 'alright', but it's currently sitting at a 4.9..."
That makes me believe that you weren't totally happy with your image from the beginning. You shouldn't expect much of anything from this voting crowd if you aren't totally 100% happy with your image from the starting point. Ask yourself a few questions before you post your image:
1. Do I think this is a GREAT photograph?
2. Am I totally happy with this photo?
3. Where are the faults that might cause me to have a lower score?
4. Can I correct those faults by re-shooting or editing?
5. Would I score this photograph less than a 7 or 8 if I was voting on it?
Those things should help you figure out what you have...
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03/30/2011 12:48:43 PM · #6 |
| I think most of the time it is hard to judge your own photos. You can be completely in love with a photo because you understand the meaning behind it. A voter won't. It helps to get feedback from others. They will put your feet squarely on the ground and help you to see it as others do. Get to know some members on the site who you feel have a similar style to your own or has work that you admire. Ask for their feedback, I know most members are more than happy to help out. |
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03/30/2011 12:55:36 PM · #7 |
Originally posted by sjhuls:
It helps to get feedback from others. |
This is a double-edged sword. I personally believe that doing this will stunt your growth as a photographer. Reason 1: When you request and use advice from someone else in developing a photograph, that photograph is no longer 100% YOURS. Reason 2: Because of reason 1, you will take much longer to develop your own interests and ideas when it comes to creating an image. The ideas you take from others will embed themselves in your style and interests.
It is difficult to become a good critic of one's own work. The simplest solution to the problem is to learn to verbalize what you like and don't like about any given photograph. In my early days in digital photography, I figured this out and took advantage of it.
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03/30/2011 12:56:51 PM · #8 |
Vote and comment on challenges. Then review your votes and comments before voting closes.
This is a good exercise to see what you like, what you would improve in other people's shots, hence what you find most important in your future shots? Is an absolutely level horizon key to your enjoyment? Do black and white images hold you longer than super saturated eye candy? Find what you like best (and hate most) in the work of others and compare it to your own submission. This will make you more critical about what you like in your own images.
Now after the challenge. look to see what others scored well. Look at images that you loved and did not place well, and see what people did not care for. Look at images that placed well that you scored poorly, and try to figure out what others liked that made no impression on you. This will let you understand what the hive mind here likes, and what sort of emphasis is pulling in the high scores this week.
Once you have done those two things enough, you can guess what score you will get (within a half point) about half the time. Then hopefully you will be willing to submit shots that you know will tank because you love them. And of course you will still be shocked on others when you thought you had submitted for the average, that you either guessed totally wrong, or missed some essential aspect and everyone hates your shot. |
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03/30/2011 01:06:06 PM · #9 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
Vote and comment on challenges. Then review your votes and comments before voting closes.
This is a good exercise to see what you like, what you would improve in other people's shots, hence what you find most important in your future shots? Is an absolutely level horizon key to your enjoyment? Do black and white images hold you longer than super saturated eye candy? Find what you like best (and hate most) in the work of others and compare it to your own submission. This will make you more critical about what you like in your own images.
Now after the challenge. look to see what others scored well. Look at images that you loved and did not place well, and see what people did not care for. Look at images that placed well that you scored poorly, and try to figure out what others liked that made no impression on you. This will let you understand what the hive mind here likes, and what sort of emphasis is pulling in the high scores this week.
Once you have done those two things enough, you can guess what score you will get (within a half point) about half the time. Then hopefully you will be willing to submit shots that you know will tank because you love them. And of course you will still be shocked on others when you thought you had submitted for the average, that you either guessed totally wrong, or missed some essential aspect and everyone hates your shot. |
I really like what you said! |
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03/30/2011 01:11:45 PM · #10 |
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
1. Do I think this is a GREAT photograph? |
I would not enter any challenge if I started with this question! :)
(99.9% of time - my answer to my own photo is NO) |
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03/30/2011 01:15:59 PM · #11 |
Thank you everyone for your input. I think  BrennanOB's point is great and I think I will try and do this in a challenge soon.
Like I said I am still very in experienced and still am learning but this site has taught me a lot so far.
I should be doing photography at A-level next year so it will be good to judge my photos against people whom have similar experience levels to me.
Message edited by author 2011-03-30 13:16:15. |
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03/30/2011 01:20:42 PM · #12 |
I no longer enter something if I don't personally like it. The problem is when I have several that I do like, or in spite of my liking it, I don't think it will have broad appeal. That's when I seek feedback.
One thing I have done that has helped me see my own entries objectively, is to put a list of anticipated critiques into my pre-challenge notes on the image. That also makes it into a bit of a game to see who leaves the expected knocks.
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03/30/2011 01:20:50 PM · #13 |
Originally posted by marnet:
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
1. Do I think this is a GREAT photograph? |
I would not enter any challenge if I started with this question! :)
(99.9% of time - my answer to my own photo is NO) |
I'm not saying that you should not enter a challenge. What I'm trying to explain is how to self-critique your work. I think a lot of people set their expectations a little high sometimes. If your answer to that question is NO 99.9% of the time, you will be getting a lot better in a short amount of time if you follow through with the rest of the questions on that list.
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03/30/2011 01:24:24 PM · #14 |
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
Originally posted by sjhuls:
It helps to get feedback from others. |
This is a double-edged sword. I personally believe that doing this will stunt your growth as a photographer. Reason 1: When you request and use advice from someone else in developing a photograph, that photograph is no longer 100% YOURS. Reason 2: Because of reason 1, you will take much longer to develop your own interests and ideas when it comes to creating an image. The ideas you take from others will embed themselves in your style and interests.
It is difficult to become a good critic of one's own work. The simplest solution to the problem is to learn to verbalize what you like and don't like about any given photograph. In my early days in digital photography, I figured this out and took advantage of it. |
I hope you didn't mean this as offensive as it sounds. I feel that you are implying that because I ask for critiques on my photos they are not %100 mine. Just because you ask someones opinion on which shot is more successful for a particular challenge, or if the crop is right, or if the message is being conveyed effectively does not mean in anyway they own a part of the photo. I came up with the idea, I photographed it and I edited it.
I have found the complete opposite to be true with seeking opinions of others. It has helped me grow tremendously as a photographer, I don't think I would have learned half as much without seeking honest critiques from others. As far as not developing my own style, I don't like to box myself in with any particular style, I let the photograph itself and my personal vision for that particular shoot dictate what kind of style I apply to it. |
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03/30/2011 01:26:42 PM · #15 |
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
Originally posted by marnet:
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
1. Do I think this is a GREAT photograph? |
I would not enter any challenge if I started with this question! :)
(99.9% of time - my answer to my own photo is NO) |
I'm not saying that you should not enter a challenge. What I'm trying to explain is how to self-critique your work. I think a lot of people set their expectations a little high sometimes. If your answer to that question is NO 99.9% of the time, you will be getting a lot better in a short amount of time if you follow through with the rest of the questions on that list. |
I was exaggerating a bit. I enter most challenges regardless but I think only about 1% of my photos have a chance at 1x. That's what I consider GREAT. |
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03/30/2011 01:51:43 PM · #16 |
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
Originally posted by sjhuls:
It helps to get feedback from others. |
This is a double-edged sword. I personally believe that doing this will stunt your growth as a photographer. Reason 1: When you request and use advice from someone else in developing a photograph, that photograph is no longer 100% YOURS. Reason 2: Because of reason 1, you will take much longer to develop your own interests and ideas when it comes to creating an image. The ideas you take from others will embed themselves in your style and interests.
It is difficult to become a good critic of one's own work. The simplest solution to the problem is to learn to verbalize what you like and don't like about any given photograph. In my early days in digital photography, I figured this out and took advantage of it. |
I agree with this 100%. If one needs feedback on a certain entry they can always get it after the challenge is over. Big part of a challenge is trying to figure out what should be done to your potential entry in order to improve it by yourself. Since I joined DPC, I have only once asked another member if they think my entry had a chance to score at or above a certain score or not because I was not clear what the theme was about. Never asked for what I should do to improve it or anything. Maybe that's just me, but I want to be the one who decides what I should do to my own photographs in order to improve them. If it doesn't do well, I will learn from my mistakes and try to avoid repeating them in the following challenges. Constantly asking other members for feedback before entering every challenge will make you rely on others' opinions more that one should. Being the judge of your own work is part of these challenges and I believe that is how it should be because it will help you grow faster as a photographer.
Message edited by author 2011-03-30 15:06:33. |
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03/30/2011 03:21:14 PM · #17 |
Originally posted by nightpixels:
If one needs feedback on a certain entry they can always get it after the challenge is over. Big part of a challenge is trying to figure out what should be done to your potential entry in order to improve it by yourself. Since I joined DPC, I have only once asked another member if they think my entry had a chance to score at or above a certain score or not because I was not clear what the theme was about. Never asked for what I should do to improve it or anything. Maybe that's just me, but I want to be the one who decides what I should do to my photographs in order to improve them. If it doesn't do well, I will learn from my mistakes and try to avoid repeating them in the following challenges. Constantly asking other members for feedback before entering every challenge will make you rely on others' opinions more that one should. Being the judge of your own work is part of these challenges and I believe that is how it should be because it will help you grow faster as a photographer. |
Makes sense if you want to take pride in the success of your work. However, if the goal is to win lots of reribbons ribbons then it's much easier to expediate the required assimilation process by getting feedback from others, preferrably those who have already been assimilated. |
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03/30/2011 03:40:14 PM · #18 |
I think Mr. Setzler has a very good point.
If you solicit feedback to improve an image, and you act on that feedback, it is not truely 100% your image anymore. It now has some of your advisor's input as well. This is not necessarily a bad thing. Seldom do we learn in a vacuum. We learn from others, and part of them stays with us.
As far as the OP is concerned. You can shoot for score, or you can shoot to please yourself. Neither is wrong. In the first case, it is like shooting for a client. If you want to be a professional photographer, you need to be able to please your clients. In this instance, the "client" is the majority of the voters here at DPC. In the second case it is being an artist. If you see your images as art, then you will never be happy unless you please yourself. Both are very valid parts of photography. Neither is "better" than the other. You just need to decide who you are, and what you want out of your images. No more, no less... |
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03/30/2011 03:44:52 PM · #19 |
Originally posted by nightpixels:
Constantly asking other members for feedback before entering every challenge will make you rely on others' opinions more that one should. Being the judge of your own work is part of these challenges and I believe that is how it should be because it will help you grow faster as a photographer. |
One of my favorite parts of the DPL was having a steady stream of feedback from teammates like  LalliSig and  JulietNN people who shoot and process differently than I do, to contribute opinions during the editing of shots, and to see them respond to challenges. I think rather than bending my style to be more like theirs, it made me clearer on how I like to work.
Arts education today stresses the uniqueness of every student, at the cost of technical skill. Classically artist were trained first in the art of copying their master's style before attempting to forge their own. The notion that real art must be idiosyncratic is a modern conceit.
"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants". I Newton.
And if sometimes I need a boost from friends to get over a fence now and then, I will thank them for the help.
Message edited by author 2011-03-30 15:45:25. |
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03/30/2011 03:55:23 PM · #20 |
Originally posted by ambaker:
You can shoot for score, or you can shoot to please yourself. Neither is wrong. In the first case, it is like shooting for a client. If you want to be a professional photographer, you need to be able to please your clients. In this instance, the "client" is the majority of the voters here at DPC. In the second case it is being an artist. If you see your images as art, then you will never be happy unless you please yourself. Both are very valid parts of photography. Neither is "better" than the other. You just need to decide who you are, and what you want out of your images. No more, no less... |
Your comments suggest you cannot achieve both at the same time. What if what I like both pleases me and pleases the client. I seldom enter a shot that does not please me. Occationally I will shoot something and it doesn't turn out in the photograph the way I invision it in my head but I took the time to shoot it and edit it and so I will usually enter it anyway.
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03/30/2011 03:56:53 PM · #21 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Makes sense if you want to take pride in the success of your work. However, if the goal is to win lots of reribbons ribbons then it's much easier to expediate the required assimilation process by getting feedback from others, preferably those who have already been assimilated. |
Well said. There is a difference between a crowd pleaser and a photo that expresses your own ideas and feelings. I have been trying to move in that direction myself. It is a more difficult path as you have to develop own style rather than try all available methods to score well. And you have to get used to low scores and hope you will improve over time to get higher scores for your own ideas. There are a lot of DPCers who have achieved that.
PS This is why I am so stuck on 1x at the moment. It gives an alternative path for recognition and achievement to DPC ribbons. |
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03/30/2011 03:59:40 PM · #22 |
I find it very very difficult to judge my own photos. I mean, I am a pretty good judge of what I like, but it is hard to step back and judge it with out the personal attachment of being the creator. Anyway, I have come to the conclusion that many of my photos look much better as a thumbnail than full size. :-)
I feel/felt so friggin' great about my entry currently in voting... but its sitting on a 5 right now.
Message edited by author 2011-03-30 16:06:16. |
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03/30/2011 04:12:50 PM · #23 |
Disclaimer: I have never submitted an image for acceptance at 1x. I do have an account at 1x.
Personally I do not see shooting for 1x much differently from shooting for ribbons at DPC. In one case you are trying to please the majority of voters; and in the other the judges at 1x. There are many fine images at 1x. There are many fine images here. The biggest difference is that here all images are posted, no matter the score. At 1x, those that receive a lower ranking from their committee are just never seen. The powers behind 1x have a "vision". As long as it is the same as your vision, that's fine. Their vision is no better than any other vision, it is just theirs. They sell the site based on a "higher standard". If only the top 10 images each challenge were shown, the same or perhaps higher "standard", would be said to be here.
Will I eventually submit to 1x? Probably. Does acceptance there, or a ribbon here, or lack thereof, make my image one whit better or worse? No! The image is what the image is, no matter who says it is bad, or who says it is good.
Will I be pleased if I am accepted at 1x, or if I win a ribbon here? Yes! Very! However, whether it is liked or disliked, the image doesn't change a bit. If I never am accepted at 1x, or never win a ribbon here, nothing is really changed. The images I make are the images I make. I would like it if they found acceptance by others. I would like it if others liked them after I am gone. But, if they are not accepted, if no one cares about them after I am gone, it doesn't really matter. They are my images, I created them. They are what they are. That is enough... |
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03/30/2011 04:14:55 PM · #24 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Makes sense if you want to take pride in the success of your work. However, if the goal is to win lots of reribbons ribbons then it's much easier to expediate the required assimilation process by getting feedback from others, preferrably those who have already been assimilated. |
Why can I not take pride in the success of my work if I get a few helpful pointers from others? Why can I not take photos in many different styles and subjects? How am I to learn what I like best if I don't try all different mediums? Just because I am not a good nature photographer doesn't mean I am not curious about how to take a good photo of a bird, and once I try maybe taking pictures of birds doesn't turn out to be my thing, I can still apply that knowledge to other areas of my photography. I don't necessarily love taking photos of still life, but when a challenge comes up and it is required, I give it a try and end up learning so much in the process. I then use what I have learned and apply it to my portrait work (something that I love).
To be assimilated I would have to choose someone who's work was completely different than mine or where I was trying to go and then make myself as much like that photographer as possible. Instead I have chosen people whose work I admire and want to be like and I guess if I end up with work similar to theirs, so be it, that is where I was trying to go anyway. |
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03/30/2011 04:33:29 PM · #25 |
Withdraw this post...sorry!
Message edited by author 2011-03-30 18:01:54. |
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