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03/22/2004 03:47:32 PM · #51 |
Originally posted by lenkphotos:
There is a standard.
1 bad
10 good |
or ...
1 I hate it
10 I love it [/quote]
That's what is great about the current scoring system. Its simple. It encompasses more opinions, features or voting consideration than I, you or anyone else could ever come up with in some 'voting guide' and it makes for the most consistent, even, evaluation of the popularity of an image that you could hope for.
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03/22/2004 04:18:58 PM · #52 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
That's what is great about the current scoring system. Its simple. It encompasses more opinions, features or voting consideration than I, you or anyone else could ever come up with in some 'voting guide' and it makes for the most consistent, even, evaluation of the popularity of an image that you could hope for. |
I guess what people (myself included) have difficulty understanding, Gordon, is this: While it all evens out, and results in a consistent evaluation, it's just as you state - a measure of the popularity of the image. Maybe we haven't been around the art world long enough to realize that objective standards of quality don't really exist, and that if we want to produce something that's loved by the majority, we need to better understand what the majority wants.
...I still believe there are objective standards of quality out there.. somewhere. A pipe dream, maybe. |
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03/22/2004 07:21:06 PM · #53 |
Here's something I would like to see to help alleviate the issue
In lieu or in addition to the secret process that occurs between the voting stage and the posting of the tabulation;
1) Equalize the number (using the top scores) of votes given on all the photographs. The count should be based on the photograph receiving the least amount of votes. I think currently they run about +/- 20 votes at the extremes. That number could be higher when a large (300+) number compete.
2) Of that result set, use only the top 95% of the vote for each image
I think that would lower the motivation of most people to not vote down the competition for the sake of bettering their own score. The vote process can still be manipulated by those who choose, but the effect of their efforts is minimal.
Just an idea.
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03/23/2004 09:31:32 AM · #54 |
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
Originally posted by Gordon:
for magazines, I have 72 images that I've scored 3 or below. Should I have to justify myself to each and every one of those people when they email me to complain ?
The answer would be the same in each case - I don't personally feel that those images would ever end up on the cover of a magazine. |
Ditto. |
I don't think you have to justify anything, but it would be NICE to know why you feel that way. The only way to learn is to understand and getting a vote of a 1,2,3 or 4 with no comment leaves you empty without understanding, frustrated and wondering what you did wrong. That's all.
I am all for learning...and I could learn a lot more if I could ask questions.
How about mandatory comments for votes of 1 or 2 then? You don't have to be rude, but you could leave a reason... I have done this for months without any gripping back at me...
Renee
Message edited by author 2004-03-23 09:32:14.
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03/23/2004 09:40:28 AM · #55 |
why should you be forced to justify your vote? If that was the case, and it was mandatory I would be so annoyed that I was forced to comment and just put 'x' in the comment box.
Message edited by author 2004-03-23 09:40:52. |
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03/23/2004 09:50:58 AM · #56 |
Originally posted by Everyday Renee:
How about mandatory comments for votes of 1 or 2 then? You don't have to be rude, but you could leave a reason... I have done this for months without any gripping back at me...
Renee |
Just curious, do you have any examples of the places where you've voted a 1 or a 2 and left the reason along with the score ? As you brought it up I had a quick flick back through your comments and couldn't see any. No doubt I missed them because I didn't pay enough attention.
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03/23/2004 09:51:33 AM · #57 |
Complaints about lack of comments come up with every challenge. Most people on this site are just trying to learn and feedback is a way of gaining knowledge to improve the images produced.
Having said that, I don't think having mandatory comments is the way to go, especially with challenges with 300+ entries. Noone has that much time.
If you are moved enough by an image (good or bad) then a comment should come freely. If you don't feel like typing (or have no time) at that moment, then so be it.
Use the individual (edit) photograph discussion forum for images you want constructive feedback on. You won't always get it in the challenges.
My 2 cents.
Message edited by author 2004-03-23 09:53:24. |
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03/23/2004 10:08:16 AM · #58 |
just my two cents on this cuz I'm still kinda new to dpc.
My first challenge didn't go so well cuz my pic was small and I got a pretty low score because of it. I accepted the low scores gracefully because after looking at the comments I found that almost everyone had the same problem, too small. Ok, no big deal. The next two that I entered are parallel lines and mag cover. (the pics are bigger!) I'm getting only a slightly better response then before. But this time I don't know why. From the math that I have done, I seem to be getting
a good number of 3 and lower. Now, that's fine I can accept the fact that someone doesn't like my pic, the problem is if I don't know what you disliked about it, then more than likely the next image may have the same problem. So we get stuck in a circle, the only way out of this is with comments.
Like I said, just my two cents! |
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03/23/2004 10:09:42 AM · #59 |
Originally posted by Everyday Renee:
How about mandatory comments for votes of 1 or 2 then? You don't have to be rude, but you could leave a reason... I have done this for months without any gripping back at me...
Renee |
It's quite obvious that some of the people who typically vote low and at the same time have good averages don't want to justify their 1s and 2s. I guess it's beneath them. I'll be the first to admit, before someone feels the need to explore my commenting practices, that I don't comment much anymore. But I would welcome some system that could curb some of the self-serving voting trends.
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03/23/2004 10:15:58 AM · #60 |
Originally posted by orussell:
It's quite obvious that some of the people who typically vote low and at the same time have good averages don't want to justify their 1s and 2s. I guess it's beneath them. I'll be the first to admit, before someone feels the need to explore my commenting practices, that I don't comment much anymore. But I would welcome some system that could curb some of the self-serving voting trends. |
I'm not a good person to speak either, I just started going to dpc regularly about two or three weeks ago and I should probably leave more notes than I do. But I do try to be fair and help when I can. |
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03/23/2004 10:19:50 AM · #61 |
I think there is enough people voting to tolerate any unexpected 1s as well as 10s. It's statistics and thath is it's purpose. If there would be less judges we could do as in some alpen skiing disciplines - throw away the highest and the lowes marks and average the rest.
--
One of my worst disappointments in life was when I realized how many idiots are around... The only thing strikes me even harder: when I realize that I was acting like an idiot myself. Just take the 1s easy.
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03/23/2004 11:07:25 AM · #62 |
I think for Members Only Challenges, it would be great to display who voted what score when a challenge ends. I think after the challenge, the secrecy should end.
If you can't handle your vote being displayed, don't vote! That way, we could learn a lot. If I got low votes on a top-scoring photo, I could then e-mail the people who scored me low and ask why (especially if they didn't comment).
It would add some accountability...
I disagree. Pretty much all voting in all aspects of society is anonymous, if it wasn't people would either not vote or vote according to what he thinks others would accept due to fear of retaliation. I don't see why I (or anyone else) should have to explain my decisions. Voting, art, photography, etc are subjective and we must come to terms with that. I personally like the the photo in question, but that doesn't mean everyone else should have given it a 10. In the end it made no difference, it won first place. We must respect other people's right to have an oppinion different than ours.
Message edited by author 2004-03-23 11:09:30.
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03/23/2004 11:17:56 AM · #63 |
Here's my take on the voting scale. The "problem" is trying to apply an "objective" measure (numbers) to a subjective subject. As someone mentioned, it's really only a popularity contest, not that there's anything wrong with that. Second, the 1-10 scale lacks commonly understood and agreed anchors, other than 1 = bad, and 1- = good. If we really wanted to try to be objective, we would use a behaviorally anchored rating scale, with a definition of EACH number or rating. That is, 1 would mean the same thing to everyone, as would 2, 3, and so on. But there's another problem. Raters are rating photographs on at least two dimensions with one scale: technical merit and "meets the challenge." There's no way of knowing if a particular rater gives each dimensions equal weight. Which is "better" -- a photograph that's technically flawless but utterly fails to meet the challenge, or a photograph that clearly meets the challenge, but is terribly flawed from a technical perspective?
To me, this points to having a dual rating scale, one for technical and one for "meets the challenge." IF both are considered equally important dimensions (and I'm not arguing they are or aren't) then the two scores could be averaged for a final score, and the photographer would know more about what drove his/her score up or down based on the two rating scales (which would also be shown), even in the absense of comments.
In any case, I think there's an argument to be made for "behaviorally anchored rating scales" so that, as much as is possible, a 1 means the same thing to everyone as does a 5, a 7, and so on (fully recognizing that people will still try to "game" the system).
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03/23/2004 05:18:19 PM · #64 |
Gary,
I think you are right on the mark with your comment.
Cheers
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03/24/2004 10:52:40 AM · #65 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by Everyday Renee:
How about mandatory comments for votes of 1 or 2 then? You don't have to be rude, but you could leave a reason... I have done this for months without any gripping back at me...
Renee |
Just curious, do you have any examples of the places where you've voted a 1 or a 2 and left the reason along with the score ? As you brought it up I had a quick flick back through your comments and couldn't see any. No doubt I missed them because I didn't pay enough attention. |
Hi Gordon ~ The photos I left a 1 or 2, I did not say that I did that, but I did leave why I did NOT like the photo. On the first page of comments that I made, I found a few that were given 1s or 2s. The Model and a few others...
I just wish there were more ways to learn from our mistakes - that's all. For those who are new or are not yet masters of their camera, challenges make it hard to learn your flaws -- that's all...
Renee
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03/24/2004 11:07:34 AM · #66 |
Originally posted by Everyday Renee:
Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by Everyday Renee:
How about mandatory comments for votes of 1 or 2 then? You don't have to be rude, but you could leave a reason... I have done this for months without any gripping back at me...
Renee |
Just curious, do you have any examples of the places where you've voted a 1 or a 2 and left the reason along with the score ? As you brought it up I had a quick flick back through your comments and couldn't see any. No doubt I missed them because I didn't pay enough attention. |
Hi Gordon ~ The photos I left a 1 or 2, I did not say that I did that, but I did leave why I did NOT like the photo. On the first page of comments that I made, I found a few that were given 1s or 2s. The Model and a few others...
I just wish there were more ways to learn from our mistakes - that's all. For those who are new or are not yet masters of their camera, challenges make it hard to learn your flaws -- that's all...
Renee |
Ah - my mistake then - I thought you were telling the people that you were giving them a 1 or a 2. |
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03/24/2004 11:13:41 AM · #67 |
Anyone who has been here for more than 5 seconds knows these threads pop up every 4 seconds.
I think perhaps people expect too much from DPC. To me it is a photography contest, where the core emphasis is on winning said challenge or just entering for fun.
Many people seem to think this is a learning site and nothing but a learning site.
Whilst my personal reasons for submitting are to force me out and to shoot objects / scenes one wouldn't usually shoot - and thus learn, I don't however see this as a major role in the learning process.
If one wants to learn, surely reading, assisting or joining your local camera club is of more benefit to you that DPC. |
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03/24/2004 11:21:25 AM · #68 |
Originally posted by jonpink:
If one wants to learn, surely reading, assisting or joining your local camera club is of more benefit to you that DPC. |
Jon, Jon, Jon -- That is your personal take, and I respect that...but certainly you realize that not everyone comes here for the reasons you come here.
Your idea is grand about the photo club, but you must realize that many people live far far away from any type of club or organization so hence that is not possible.
Renee
Message edited by author 2004-03-24 11:21:41.
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03/24/2004 11:25:38 AM · #69 |
Renee,Renee,Renee I do see it differently that much is obvious, otherwise I too would be moaning about 1's on 99% of my images as I always get them.
I do see DPC as a great leaning tool, but that comes as a bonus, I don't expect great crtique and great help from my peers on DPC.
Perhaps that's a better way of saying it?
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03/24/2004 11:37:43 AM · #70 |
Originally posted by jonpink:
Renee,Renee,Renee I do see it differently that much is obvious, otherwise I too would be moaning about 1's on 99% of my images as I always get them.
I do see DPC as a great leaning tool, but that comes as a bonus, I don't expect great crtique and great help from my peers on DPC.
Perhaps that's a better way of saying it? |
Skilled and adept photographers such as yourself don't gain much in the way of knowledge from critiques on this site, but you are in the minority. Most here are no where near your level of expertise and they do gain alot from persons with more knowledge. If you don't care to share your wealth of photographic knowledge that's entirely your perogative and I'm sure most respect this.
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03/24/2004 11:40:26 AM · #71 |
Originally posted by orussell:
Skilled and adept photographers such as yourself don't gain much in the way of knowledge from critiques on this site, but you are in the minority. Most here are no where near your level of expertise and they do gain alot from persons with more knowledge. If you don't care to share your wealth of photographic knowledge that's entirely your perogative and I'm sure most respect this. |
I concur and can certainly respect that.
Message edited by author 2004-03-24 11:40:39.
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03/24/2004 11:45:12 AM · #72 |
| i just want lots of stinkin' ribbons .... lots! |
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03/24/2004 11:45:35 AM · #73 |
Perhaps, if you want to learn from skilled and adept photographers like Jon (who, by the looks of things started taking pictures about 3 months after I did - all of about 20 months ago) it would be worthwhile emulating the learning approaches as well.
DPC gives a good stimulus to force you to expand your horizons. It can be a great place to get a new challenge to provoke learning. I often use the challenges as an excuse to learn a new technique - which I'll then research through books, on-line teaching resources and discussion with people either in on-line communities or local groups.
I think I've maybe learned one thing from comments, ever.
Message edited by author 2004-03-24 11:46:07. |
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03/24/2004 12:08:34 PM · #74 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
Perhaps, if you want to learn from skilled and adept photographers like Jon (who, by the looks of things started taking pictures about 3 months after I did - all of about 20 months ago) it would be worthwhile emulating the learning approaches as well.
DPC gives a good stimulus to force you to expand your horizons. It can be a great place to get a new challenge to provoke learning. I often use the challenges as an excuse to learn a new technique - which I'll then research through books, on-line teaching resources and discussion with people either in on-line communities or local groups.
I think I've maybe learned one thing from comments, ever. |
comment left on "Waiting For Bats"
P-ness |
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03/24/2004 12:27:13 PM · #75 |
Just to echo some of the sentiments above.... I think you have a better chance of getting feedback on photos in the forums here, photosig, photonet, usefilm, and other critique type sites.
If your challenge shot here is slightly off the challenge scope, most of all your comments will reveal that point only. You wont get any real feedback on your photo at that point.
I never had any formal photography education. When I first started taking pictures, before I had interent access, I had subs to about 4 photo magazines and had bought probally 30 books on the subject.
There is a nice group of people here on this site that are always willing to help, just dont expect too much from your challenge voters. Use the forums and pop in the chat and drop a few pics into the conversation and get some good feedback.
I get loads of info from the friends that Ive made here, and other forums. Ive learned to look at my pics and know whats wrong, before I ever have to ask anyone else.
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