?s about Xtianity but were afraid to ask

01/27/2011 02:24:56 PM · #951

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
You can't feel that everybody who becomes a Christian in their adult life is only doing so because they are "average" and aren't thinking things through. That's painting with a pretty broad brush.

Maybe not, but I'd certainly be curious to hear from a couple well-read, logical people who have done so, and have them explain why they chose to do so.

Read CS Lewis. He exactly fits your specifications. I haven't read her book, but you could also try Anne Rice for probably a slightly less intellectual take (but probably thoughtful in a different way).

Message edited by author 2011-01-27 14:26:41.

01/27/2011 03:25:01 PM · #952

I should have been more specific for Jeb. I believe "Surprised by Joy" details Lewis' conversion.

Art Roflmao

Canon EOS-6D Mark II

01/27/2011 03:34:05 PM · #953

Many of the Christians I know (myself included) didn't "choose" to convert or "choose" Christianity any more than you choose to get wet when you are thrown into the river. IMO, it is not something you can just decide on or reason into believing - it is something you either experience, or you don't. Which is why these debates are futile, albeit interesting, IMO.

01/27/2011 03:36:22 PM · #954

Originally posted by Art Roflmao:

Riiiigggghhht.

01/27/2011 03:59:55 PM · #955

Awww Ed, you big old fuzzy cynic...

01/27/2011 04:02:10 PM · #956

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Awww Ed, you big old fuzzy cynic...

Cynic has nothing to do with it. That's simply a ridiculous statement. Period. Laughable at best.

ETA: To be more clear, I understand the SENTIMENT. It's just the ridiculous over-the-top analogy I have a problem with.

Message edited by author 2011-01-27 16:20:31.

01/27/2011 04:51:47 PM · #957

You are such a robot (touche). :) I'd be leery of discounting someone's story. Multiple writers have described being "gripped" by God while they fight and kick. Sure it's metaphor, but it describes something they feel as real.

01/27/2011 05:12:33 PM · #958

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

I don't deny that. However, you still have a choice :D To say you don't and that it's akin to not being able to choose to not get wet when thrown in a river is ridiculous. You choose whether to take some feeling you have and run with it as a religious experience, or to write it off as a bad gas.

01/27/2011 05:18:13 PM · #959

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

You are such a robot (touche). :) I'd be leery of discounting someone's story. Multiple writers have described being "gripped" by God while they fight and kick. Sure it's metaphor....

...for being extremely credulous, some would say.

Nikon AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 ED

01/27/2011 05:22:45 PM · #960

"You must picture me alone in that room in Magdalen, night after night, feeling, whenever my mind lifted even for a second from my work, the steady, unrelenting approach of Him whom I so earnestly desired not to meet. That which I greatly feared had at last come upon me. In the Trinity Term of 1929 I gave in, and admitted that God was God, and knelt and prayed: perhaps, that night, the most dejected and reluctant convert in all England."

Apple iPhone 5

01/27/2011 05:26:39 PM · #961

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Without denying that, I'm saying the struggle may be social or familial rather than intellectual. But, sure, I don't deny that there are people who have given a great deal of thought into things and then decided to chuck religion. As long as you don't deny there are similar people who have either done the opposite or have gone through the struggle and remained strong in their faith (like me).

It's a tougher struggle to question and then discard long-held beliefs, than to half question them and plump for the status quo. The comfortable eternal-life-in-heaven option over the bleak when-you're-dead-you're-dead option.

01/27/2011 05:30:17 PM · #962

Originally posted by JH:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Without denying that, I'm saying the struggle may be social or familial rather than intellectual. But, sure, I don't deny that there are people who have given a great deal of thought into things and then decided to chuck religion. As long as you don't deny there are similar people who have either done the opposite or have gone through the struggle and remained strong in their faith (like me).

It's a tougher struggle to question and then discard long-held beliefs, than to half question them and plump for the status quo. The comfortable eternal-life-in-heaven option over the bleak when-you're-dead-you're-dead option.

It's probably equally hard to have lived life thinking you are your own master and in control of everything and realize there is a creator who demands your attention and has expectations for you. The comfort of being your own god to the bleak realization you are not...

01/27/2011 05:54:00 PM · #963

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by JH:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Without denying that, I'm saying the struggle may be social or familial rather than intellectual. But, sure, I don't deny that there are people who have given a great deal of thought into things and then decided to chuck religion. As long as you don't deny there are similar people who have either done the opposite or have gone through the struggle and remained strong in their faith (like me).

It's a tougher struggle to question and then discard long-held beliefs, than to half question them and plump for the status quo. The comfortable eternal-life-in-heaven option over the bleak when-you're-dead-you're-dead option.

It's probably equally hard to have lived life thinking you are your own master and in control of everything and realize there is a creator who demands your attention and has expectations for you. The comfort of being your own god to the bleak realization you are not...

Or, you might just need a good dose of electro-shock ;)

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

01/27/2011 06:02:41 PM · #964

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

I'm unimpressed. An essentially weak will is not an example to follow.

Why not trundle out the story of Francis Collins, who, after a lifetime of shaky atheism, fell to his knees and accepted Christ as his personal saviour on spotting a frozen waterfall? Considering that the Innu in northern Canada are not collapsing in fits of Christian revelation, nor are Hindus in India, Muslims on the Arabian peninsula, or Buddhists on the steppes of Mongolia doing likewise at the sight of any other natural wonder, one can only come to the conclusion that culture, nation, and personal state of mind are the culprits in such stories.

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

01/27/2011 06:13:25 PM · #965

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

The comfort of being your own god to the bleak realization you are not...

I believe it works the other way around ... :-(

01/27/2011 06:18:46 PM · #966

Originally posted by Louis:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
"You must picture me alone in that room in Magdalen, night after night, feeling, whenever my mind lifted even for a second from my work, the steady, unrelenting approach of Him whom I so earnestly desired not to meet. That which I greatly feared had at last come upon me. In the Trinity Term of 1929 I gave in, and admitted that God was God, and knelt and prayed: perhaps, that night, the most dejected and reluctant convert in all England."

I'm unimpressed. An essentially weak will is not an example to follow.

Why not trundle out the story of Francis Collins, who, after a lifetime of shaky atheism, fell to his knees and accepted Christ as his personal saviour on spotting a frozen waterfall? Considering that the Innu in northern Canada are not collapsing in fits of Christian revelation, nor are Hindus in India, Muslims on the Arabian peninsula, or Buddhists on the steppes of Mongolia doing likewise at the sight of any other natural wonder, one can only come to the conclusion that culture, nation, and personal state of mind are the culprits in such stories.

I dunno. Christianity has exploded in Africa in the last century with numbers rising from nine million to 380 million in a hundred years. Is that because Africa has a culture or personal state of mind that is the "culprit"? I call BS on the frequent assertion that the only person stupid enough to become Christian is one who isn't thinking or has been indoctrinated by his/her parents. I think that position reflects a certain intellectual elitism or snobbery that doesn't become the speaker.

01/27/2011 06:30:39 PM · #967

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Catholics, Anglicans, and sundry Protestant missionaries are to blame for the rise of Christianity in Africa. That isn't a good thing, by any stretch of the imagination (Burundi, Rwanda, Tanzania, Kenya may soon follow).

I didn't use the "S" word, but in the case of adult converts (or pseudo-converts), I did imply a lack of will, by which I mean an inability to resist a phenomenal cultural force. Recognizing that doesn't require snobbery or elitism.

In fact, it's easy to turn that charge around. Stating that one has the answers to the most fundamental questions of life, but that you must abandon certain traits particular to homo sapiens (reason and logic), and that everyone else on the planet who doesn't view things in precisely the same way is simply wrong, seems to me the zenith of snobbery and elitism.

01/27/2011 06:39:44 PM · #968

Well, so be it. Really Louis, I know you are a good guy, but in these conversations your cynicism and complete lack of respect for anybody with a view other than yours is unappealing. The only reason 380 million Africans are Christian is because white Europeans coerced them into it and they are too unintelligent or simple to fend it off? That's borderline racist.

The reality facing you is that there are literally millions of people as intelligent as you and as educated as you, or even moreso who are faithful, strong Christians. They don't go away when you close your eyes.

01/27/2011 06:41:11 PM · #969

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Not unintelligent and simple. Uneducated and ignorant. Huge difference, and religion feeds off the uneducated and ignorant like it's ambrosia.

01/27/2011 06:51:46 PM · #970

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

A charge of racism? Because citizens of third-world countries are devastatingly poor, have access to a fraction of the education of Westerners, and because religion is demonstrably the first refuge of the ignorant and destitute? Come.

As for all the brainiacs who are strong Christians, granted. Religious faith is a reality in the world. I think I've admitted that.

01/27/2011 06:56:49 PM · #971

Originally posted by K10DGuy:

Not unintelligent and simple. Uneducated and ignorant. Huge difference, and religion feeds off the uneducated and ignorant like it's ambrosia.

Ugly.

01/27/2011 06:58:50 PM · #972

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by K10DGuy:
Not unintelligent and simple. Uneducated and ignorant. Huge difference, and religion feeds off the uneducated and ignorant like it's ambrosia.

Ugly.

Truth often is.

01/27/2011 07:10:29 PM · #973

Five richest Countries in Africa and % declaring Christianity
Equatorial Guinea 98.6%
Botswana 71.6%
Gabon 72%
Lybia 2%
Mauritius 32.2%

Five poorest Countries in Africa and % declaring Christianity
Zimbabwe 85%
DR Congo 90%
Burundi 67%
Liberia 40%
Guinea-Bissau 10%

I fail to see a trend.

01/27/2011 07:12:39 PM · #974

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

You obviously also fail to understand the economics of Africa. The rich in Africa extends only to the elitist ruling factions. Especially in most of the countries mentioned in those lists.