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01/22/2011 10:08:09 PM · #926 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I just wanted to make a book recommendation for people who enjoy the topics of these conversations but perhaps do not enjoy the drama of them. I'm reading The Reason for God: Belief in the Age of Skepticism by Timothy Keller and have found it to be immensely enjoyable. I'm only 31% into it (Kindle geek alert), but he has already addressed nearly every conversation that comes up in Rant about religion.
Anyway, just wanted to pass on the title. |
Choirboy. :P
Message edited by author 2011-01-22 22:08:32. |
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01/22/2011 10:36:27 PM · #927 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I just wanted to make a book recommendation for people who enjoy the topics of these conversations but perhaps do not enjoy the drama of them. I'm reading The Reason for God: Belief in the Age of Skepticism by Timothy Keller and have found it to be immensely enjoyable. I'm only 31% into it (Kindle geek alert), but he has already addressed nearly every conversation that comes up in Rant about religion.
Anyway, just wanted to pass on the title. |
Choirboy. :P |
I will tell you my voice has not changed post vasectomy and I resent the implication! :D |
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01/22/2011 10:56:49 PM · #928 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by yanko:
Choirboy. :P |
I will tell you my voice has not changed post vasectomy and I resent the implication! :D |
The Lord was walking along the road and came upon a man weeping uncontrollably. "My son, why are you crying?" He asked.
"Lord, I've been blind since birth, and have never seen a sunset."
So the Lord touched him, and Lo! the man could see.
Continuing down the road, the Lord soon came to another man wracked with sobs. "My son, why do you weep?"
"Lord, I've been crippled since birth, and have never been able to run freely through the fields."
So the Lord touched him, and Lo! the man could walk and run.
A little further down the road, the Lord came upon yet another crying man." "My son, what brings you such sadness?"
"Lord, I'm a high school choir director."
And the Lord sat down and cried with him.
-courtesy of A Prairie Home Companion's annual joke show. |
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01/25/2011 06:46:48 PM · #929 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I just wanted to make a book recommendation for people who enjoy the topics of these conversations but perhaps do not enjoy the drama of them. I'm reading The Reason for God: Belief in the Age of Skepticism by Timothy Keller and have found it to be immensely enjoyable. I'm only 31% into it (Kindle geek alert), but he has already addressed nearly every conversation that comes up in Rant about religion.
Anyway, just wanted to pass on the title. |
That is an excellent book. It definitely gets my endorsement.
P.S. I am also a Kindle geek :) |
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01/25/2011 07:22:08 PM · #930 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I just wanted to make a book recommendation for people who enjoy the topics of these conversations but perhaps do not enjoy the drama of them. I'm reading The Reason for God: Belief in the Age of Skepticism by Timothy Keller and have found it to be immensely enjoyable. I'm only 31% into it (Kindle geek alert), but he has already addressed nearly every conversation that comes up in Rant about religion.
Anyway, just wanted to pass on the title. |
Choirboy. :P |
Heh. Why is it that only people that already HOLD a position of religious belief ever get anything from books of this nature?
Don't answer that. It's rhetorical :D |
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01/26/2011 11:32:11 PM · #931 |
People probably enjoy someone who can eloquently describe issues they have thought about in a way that resonates with them. Why do atheists like to read Hitchins or Dawkins? I'm guessing the same reason.
BTW, that's a rhetorical answer so don't read it. :D
Message edited by author 2011-01-27 00:06:40. |
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01/27/2011 09:27:33 AM · #932 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
People probably enjoy someone who can eloquently describe issues they have thought about in a way that resonates with them. Why do atheists like to read Hitchins or Dawkins? I'm guessing the same reason. |
Probably. Everyone wants validation. Or a more elegant way to say what they feel. But it seems to me that more non-believers will read "the other side" than believers will read opposing views. Nothing scientific behind that view. Just a feeling, largely based on personal experience. |
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01/27/2011 12:10:57 PM · #933 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
People probably enjoy someone who can eloquently describe issues they have thought about in a way that resonates with them. Why do atheists like to read Hitchins or Dawkins? I'm guessing the same reason. |
Probably. Everyone wants validation. Or a more elegant way to say what they feel. But it seems to me that more non-believers will read "the other side" than believers will read opposing views. Nothing scientific behind that view. Just a feeling, largely based on personal experience. |
I'm guessing you know a lot more non-believers than believers. My experience would tell me the opposite, but that's just anecdotal.
The prime reason I read the book was not for repeated validation of my beliefs, but I was rather interested in hearing the approach Keller takes. He has grown a church of 30-something postmodern Manhattenites to a size of 5,000 while continuing to preach traditional tenets of Christianity - the infallibility of the Bible, the deity of Christ, the necessity of spiritual regeneration. This is, at the very least, interesting, and at most quite impressive. It appears Christianity can be relevant to the next generations and I wanted to know how and why.
Redeemer Presbyterian Church wiki
Message edited by author 2011-01-27 12:21:08. |
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01/27/2011 01:04:54 PM · #934 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I'm guessing you know a lot more non-believers than believers. |
Actually, no. Only by sheer numbers within the population, I've known many more believers than non. I've talked about belief -- or non -- with far fewer. Virtually 100% of the nons (I really dislike referring to a group of people by a negative, but anyway) understand the opposite position by way of reading about it. Virtually 100% of the non-nons :P have never read anything about it. But that is also anecdotal. |
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01/27/2011 01:13:42 PM · #935 |
| Well, you know me and so it's 100% minus one... :) |
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01/27/2011 01:18:41 PM · #936 |
| Not so sure... you've read atheist literature? |
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01/27/2011 01:26:03 PM · #937 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Not so sure... you've read atheist literature? |
Dawkins, Gould, Hitchins (him not cover to cover, but I know enough passages and quotes that I feel like I've read him). I've seen lots of interviews and YouTubes and TED talks from the crew. blah blah blah. I'm not saying I'm some aficionado, but I've read stuff. Certainly I've read the reams of material y'all have posted on these sites (that better count for something). I think that would qualify in your mind. If not, I think you are asking too much. |
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01/27/2011 01:31:09 PM · #938 |
One book, cover to cover and consecutively, in five sittings or less, would be more than average, I would think. Piecemeal short readings wouldn't really mean much.
Message edited by author 2011-01-27 13:32:34. |
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01/27/2011 01:35:58 PM · #939 |
Originally posted by Louis:
One book, cover to cover and consecutively, in five sittings or less, would be more than average, I would think. Piecemeal short readings wouldn't really mean much. |
So just to get this straight, you are saying that virtually 100% of the atheists you know have done this with a Christian apologetic book and 100% of the non-atheists have not? What's the most popular apologetic book your friends have read? |
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01/27/2011 01:46:34 PM · #940 |
Anyway, you should introduce your reading crew to Keller because they may enjoy the direct approach he is willing to take to topics I know you and your friends are interested in. Check out the first seven chapters...
There Can't be Just ONE religion
How could a good God allow suffering?
Christianity is a straitjacket
The church is responsible for so much injustice
How can a loving God send people to Hell?
Science has disproved Christianity
You can't take the Bible literally
That's not sticking your head in the ground, is it? |
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01/27/2011 01:49:52 PM · #941 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Not so sure... you've read atheist literature? |
Atheism. The only religion without a god. Doc. Louis. You guys
still picking at this sore? You need to sit down and have a beer. |
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01/27/2011 01:51:36 PM · #942 |
Without taking a poll, probably the bible, and then Aquinas, and then "classic" literature including CS Lewis, followed by pop-apo (a term I just made up). I admit this is anecdotal, as I've mentioned. But 100% of those atheists I know save one were not atheists to begin with, and come from a tradition of belief that was challenged at some point, and so their original position was one of belief. In order for belief to be challenged, one has to have had a position on it, or at the very least an informed opinion. To begin with, they're already ahead of those with belief in being informed about the opposing view.
Doesn't it seem reasonable to assert that someone, having had belief, and then no longer having it, will be in a good position to talk about what it means to believe, and what apologetics have been put forward? And doesn't it seem reasonable to assert that the majority of those who believe feel no need to challenge their beliefs when there is no social pressure to do so? It seems fairly straightforward that an atheist, having once believed, will understand the other side more comprehensively than the average believer who, like most of us, is intellectually lazy and unchallenged. |
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01/27/2011 01:54:15 PM · #943 |
Originally posted by FireBird:
Originally posted by Louis:
Not so sure... you've read atheist literature? |
Atheism. The only religion without a god. |
Actually, Buddhism is the only religion without a god, as far as I know. Atheism isn't a religion. It's exactly what it states it is: non-belief in any gods. Perhaps you're confusing militancy with the simple denial of the existence of gods. |
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01/27/2011 01:57:28 PM · #944 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
That's not sticking your head in the ground, is it? |
Not having read this book, I don't know. Anyway, as far as I knew, we were talking about your "average" believer and non-believer, not an author like Mr. Keller or Mr. Hitchens, or any professional Christian apologist. |
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01/27/2011 01:59:14 PM · #945 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Without taking a poll, probably the bible, and then Aquinas, and then "classic" literature including CS Lewis, followed by pop-apo (a term I just made up). I admit this is anecdotal, as I've mentioned. But 100% of those atheists I know save one were not atheists to begin with, and come from a tradition of belief that was challenged at some point, and so their original position was one of belief. In order for belief to be challenged, one has to have had a position on it, or at the very least an informed opinion. To begin with, they're already ahead of those with belief in being informed about the opposing view.
Doesn't it seem reasonable to assert that someone, having had belief, and then no longer having it, will be in a good position to talk about what it means to believe, and what apologetics have been put forward? And doesn't it seem reasonable to assert that the majority of those who believe feel no need to challenge their beliefs when there is no social pressure to do so? It seems fairly straightforward that an atheist, having once believed, will understand the other side more comprehensively than the average believer who, like most of us, is intellectually lazy and unchallenged. |
In a way it's reasonable, but we both know there are tons of people that are nominal Christians and then fall away. The Christianity they knocked down with their undergraduate questions of doubt was only robust enough to satisfy a second grader and had never developed beyond that. I'm not saying I know any of your friends, but I do know that this is probably the single most common way people decide their previous Christianity is not for them. So, in that case, no, they may not be in a good position at all. |
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01/27/2011 02:00:25 PM · #946 |
Originally posted by Louis:
\
Atheism isn't a religion. |
Meets my definition. Private beliefs that someone tries
to shove down others throats. :)
I still think you and Doc need to STFU and drink a beer.
Shame I don't live close enuf to buy you guys one. That
would be a discussion opportunity I'd love to experience. |
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01/27/2011 02:01:13 PM · #947 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
That's not sticking your head in the ground, is it? |
Not having read this book, I don't know. Anyway, as far as I knew, we were talking about your "average" believer and non-believer, not an author like Mr. Keller or Mr. Hitchens, or any professional Christian apologist. |
Oh, sorry. I wasn't raising Keller as an example of someone who is "read". I was rather just saying the book might be intellectually enjoyable to someone who likes a challenge from the other side rather than a milquetoast version that is easily defeated and discarded.
EDIT: We're just having a friendly conversation here Firebird. Nobody needs to STFU. If we can't even converse like this, then civil discourse is dead.
Message edited by author 2011-01-27 14:04:11. |
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01/27/2011 02:03:19 PM · #948 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
In a way it's reasonable, but we both know there are tons of people that are nominal Christians and then fall away. The Christianity they knocked down with their undergraduate questions of doubt was only robust enough to satisfy a second grader and had never developed beyond that. I'm not saying I know any of your friends, but I do know that this is probably the single most common way people decide their previous Christianity is not for them. So, in that case, no, they may not be in a good position at all. |
Oh, I think you're absolutely wrong about that. The transition from belief to atheism is usually long and painful. The fact that it happens at all signifies that a serious challenge has come about, and had to be met. That is some anecdotal evidence I believe you can take to the bank. A mere cursory look at the various social media sites, YouTube included, will reveal that most stories are rooted in a struggle that was not whimsical or irrelevant. |
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01/27/2011 02:07:39 PM · #949 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
In a way it's reasonable, but we both know there are tons of people that are nominal Christians and then fall away. The Christianity they knocked down with their undergraduate questions of doubt was only robust enough to satisfy a second grader and had never developed beyond that. I'm not saying I know any of your friends, but I do know that this is probably the single most common way people decide their previous Christianity is not for them. So, in that case, no, they may not be in a good position at all. |
Oh, I think you're absolutely wrong about that. The transition from belief to atheism is usually long and painful. The fact that it happens at all signifies that a serious challenge has come about, and had to be met. That is some anecdotal evidence I believe you can take to the bank. A mere cursory look at the various social media sites, YouTube included, will reveal that most stories are rooted in a struggle that was not whimsical or irrelevant. |
Without denying that, I'm saying the struggle may be social or familial rather than intellectual. But, sure, I don't deny that there are people who have given a great deal of thought into things and then decided to chuck religion. As long as you don't deny there are similar people who have either done the opposite or have gone through the struggle and remained strong in their faith (like me).
You can't feel that everybody who becomes a Christian in their adult life is only doing so because they are "average" and aren't thinking things through. That's painting with a pretty broad brush. |
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01/27/2011 02:20:37 PM · #950 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
You can't feel that everybody who becomes a Christian in their adult life is only doing so because they are "average" and aren't thinking things through. That's painting with a pretty broad brush. |
Maybe not, but I'd certainly be curious to hear from a couple well-read, logical people who have done so, and have them explain why they chose to do so.
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